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Astra Millitarum Questions


Wellington99

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As it was brought up when asking about the Militarum Tempestus, I have some questions regarding the Guard. I have more than plenty of elite choices with the Scions, but at the moment I have only two guards squads (vets), one with two flamers and a heavy flamer (which to be honest was a "Oh that's cool I can take those, I'll take those" moment) and the other has a single grenade launcher and I typically run with a lascannon HWT (getting started kit, at the time wanted to get everyone assembled) along with a Leman Russ tank with battlecannon, Leman Russ with the autocannons, heavy bolters and heavy stubber, and I even got two Scout Sentinels both with multilasers. At the moment aside from a Punisher Russ to get Pask, I'm unsure how to build a guard army up. For the longest time I had this thing of a guard army revolved around heavy weapons and artillery (Heavy Weapons Squads, Basalisks, Wyvrns and the like) and now I'm actually doing it somewhat, I'm reconsidering the idea because I've seen other armies play and I don't think it would remotely work. What's your thoughts on making a guard army that's essentially artillery and heavy weapons oriented, and what's a decent guard army composition?

 

Also somewhat related, what's a good way for Guard to counter Dark Angels (primarily if someone has the Dark Vengeance Dark Angels plus a couple more that they borrow to round it out from time to time) in regards to their bikes?

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With the exception of the vanilla Russ (which is sadly trash), most everything you have is fairly decent, so you're at a good starting point. What I'd look at now is what kind of army you want- are you looking for an all-mechanized force of tanks, or would you prefer a combined-arms style army with a mix of tanks and infantry? If the former, you obviously need to start getting Chimeras and squads to fill them; some Wyverns would also add to your theme nicely while bringing something unique to the army. Look to fill out your anti-tank for that army, because it's something you will struggle with; Pask is a good start, and Vendettas can help as well, but you'll probably need Meltaguns in squads of dudes. (They're easy to convert from Boltguns, if you don't want to buy them.)

If you're looking to more of a mixed army, you're going to need to get mans. Lots of mans. Two Infantry Platoons, each with 30-50 guys in them, is pretty standard; you'll want Power Axes on every sergeant, but heavy/special weapons are optional depending on points. (I myself like Lascannons.) You probably run Commissar Yarrick in that list, with 1-3 Priests lending a hand as well- Pask can be used, but he's not as useful/needed. You have a bit better AT options with this version but will struggle with mobility more when trying to get onto distant objectives.

Ravenwing bikes are essentially impossible to shoot to death so long as they're getting their cover save, bar putting absolutely unreasonable numbers of shots into them. So you have a couple options: first, deny them that cover save. You can do this with orders (Bring It Down), with weapons that innately ignore cover (Wyvern mortar, Eradicator Nova Cannon, Hellhound Inferno Cannon, and even regular Flamers), or with more exotic methods (Psychic Shriek, etc), but the key here is you're denying them their reroll even if you aren't denying them their armor save. Another path is to use melee attacks, against which cover is useless- those big blobs of Guardsmen mentioned above will make short work of bikes with their Power Axes, and even just their normal attacks. Although they're a bit unconventional and niche, Rough Riders are also excellent against bikes- they strike first, ignore armor, and wound on 4s if they get the charge.

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On 2/27/2017 at 1:16 PM, Wellington99 said:

What's your thoughts on making a guard army that's essentially artillery and heavy weapons oriented, and what's a decent guard army composition?

 

Also somewhat related, what's a good way for Guard to counter Dark Angels (primarily if someone has the Dark Vengeance Dark Angels plus a couple more that they borrow to round it out from time to time) in regards to their bikes?

Working on the same thing, for my Astra Millitarum forces, though I plan to Ally with Dark Angels, not to defeat them. lol.

So the key in list creation is regarding how your local "scene" handles game scenarios. Does your army need to be able to move around and claim objectives? Or can they just sit there and shoot all game? Locally, we play a lot of missions with maelstrom objectives, so it randomizes where the army needs to be. So an army reliant on heavy weapons and artillery (assuming you mean mechanized artillery as in vehicles, as AM have zero artillery units in their codex) may run into mobility issues.

You mentioned running Veteran Squads. I highly recommend the Camo Gear and Snare Mines upgrade. It's cheap and really adds to the durability of the unit. The Carapace looks like they'd be more durable, but in reality, it mostly only matters in assault, as that's where the armor save will come up the most - most of the time, your cover save will be better than your armor save, so upgrading the armor is mostly meaningless outside of melee for guardsmen (the difference between 4+ and 5+ is just too little). The Demolition Charges and Melta Bombs are also a very strong option, but their cost is high and they need to be very close to their opponents to make use of this (less useful unless you plan to come to them).

As for defeating DA, can you explain the specific issues you are with Dark Angels? That codex has quite a few options, especially for a player new to 40k (because you might just be describing issues with Space Marines in general). In general, DA suffer from having a slightly more overpriced codex than the normal marines have. They have some neat options, but the codex really doesn't have that many special tricks. Abuse Puppy's comments about dealing with ravenwing bikers is spot on (the bikes, speeders and flyers in DA, are called "ravenwing". The Terminators and the venerable dreadnoughts in DA are called Deathwing. It's not just fluff, as there are some specific rules there, but it's mostly fluff).

Ravenwing bikers rely on jink, which really nerfs their own shooting ability. As mentioned in your other thread, if you can force them to jink, most of their shooting becomes worthless. Pretty easy to force Ravenwing bikers to jink, just shoot them with any AP3 or better weapon, and they'll jink on reflex. They can still assault after jinking, so you should probably a counter-charge unit, or units, in mind for that eventuality. Flamers (heavy flamers) work well for counter charges, as do rough riders (though rough riders are a very fragile unit and tend to die from shooting).

As for my forces, my mine are slowly coming. I just bought the plastic Ogryn box set (3), and have assembled them as Bullgryns with Slabshields and Grenadier Gauntlets. Haven't run them yet, but I'll report back when I get some tests in. It's a strange unit, so I'm not sure what to expect, but I didn't own any AM elites, so I'll give that a go.

Oh, before I forget. One of the locals with Tempestus Scions has been fielding a Baneblade as his LoW slot in a CAD for his Tempestus Scions. Only saw one game with it, but it seems to be working for him. That might be a good option to cope with enemy units if you don't want to take allies.

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In regards to the local scene, we do use maelstrom objectives a lot (heck the last time I played it was a variation where they'd scatter 1d6 every turn and if not controlled after the scatter, once controlled again you had to reroll. It was fun especially for me as one loved my Missile Taurox so much it kept going under and around it within 3 inches. Only in the last turn did it go more than and I just scooted over to it). Does seem like a more mobile army is better there. It does lead me to the Recon Detachment formation that I've been thinking on getting for the Guard as I love Sentinels. I have two Scouts (one assembled as armored because the directions didn't really say which was Scout and which was Armored, just Catachan vs Cadian vs Steel Legion) with multilasers, and would get another four (one as an actual armored Sentinel for the command Sentinel with probably either multilaser or plasma) to get the 2-4 units needed. Remembering right, they get basically favored enemy vs one unit of your opponents and they all get outflank. What's the opinions on that, especially considering they cost about the same as a guard squad $ wise and roughly half the cost points wise?

 

I've also looked up more about CADs and Detachments and I have a very preliminary list worked out pretty much out of what I have at the moment subject to change. If it's no bother, I can post the list here to get opinions. I'm still slightly confused on if I need a platoon command squad with vets if I'm taking Scions as elite choices or as part of a detachment.

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50 minutes ago, Wellington99 said:

In regards to the local scene, we do use maelstrom objectives a lot (heck the last time I played it was a variation where they'd scatter 1d6 every turn and if not controlled after the scatter, once controlled again you had to reroll. It was fun especially for me as one loved my Missile Taurox so much it kept going under and around it within 3 inches. Only in the last turn did it go more than and I just scooted over to it). Does seem like a more mobile army is better there. It does lead me to the Recon Detachment formation that I've been thinking on getting for the Guard as I love Sentinels. I have two Scouts (one assembled as armored because the directions didn't really say which was Scout and which was Armored, just Catachan vs Cadian vs Steel Legion) with multilasers, and would get another four (one as an actual armored Sentinel for the command Sentinel with probably either multilaser or plasma) to get the 2-4 units needed. Remembering right, they get basically favored enemy vs one unit of your opponents and they all get outflank. What's the opinions on that, especially considering they cost about the same as a guard squad $ wise and roughly half the cost points wise?

 

I've also looked up more about CADs and Detachments and I have a very preliminary list worked out pretty much out of what I have at the moment subject to change. If it's no bother, I can post the list here to get opinions. I'm still slightly confused on if I need a platoon command squad with vets if I'm taking Scions as elite choices or as part of a detachment.

AM is a confusing codex for troops slots. Basically, each troops slot has only two options: You can take an Infantry Platoon, or, a Veteran Squad. 

An Infantry Platoon Consists of 1 Platoon Command Squad and 2 Infantry Squads at minimum. If you wanted to meet the CAD requirements with Infantry Platoons, you'd need an HQ and at least 2 troops slots worth of infantry platoons (so at least 2 platoon command squads and 4 infantry squads).

A veteran squad is an entire troops slot too. Veterans are a nice option for new players, since they require less models. Basically, the starting AM army should be a Command Squad and two Veteran Squads (which could later become an Infantry Platoon with the same models). 

As for mobility, AM are slow. Not just models, but because your vehicles have more armor in the front, on most models, you have to advance with your sides protected, which means you have to be very careful in how quickly you advance, as you don't want to enable the opponent any easy flank shots.  

Regarding modeling sentinels, most won't care if you mix them, provided they know which is which. The old models didn't have a difference as much, as the new ones do, which is why that kit doesn't explain which is which. If it becomes an issue, you could do minor conversions to make an armored one open topped (like having a guy standing or sitting on top...), or make an open topped one look armored (a tower/riot shield in the front, would work just fine).

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25 minutes ago, generalripphook said:

What is the recon formation again? 

Pretty sure he means the Emperor's Talon Recon Company Formation. 2-4 units of Scout/Armored Sentinels. Each unit must have 3 models, so requires at least 6 sentinels (2 squads). Gives a designated command sentinel, the ability to issue orders to the sentinel squadrons, plus preferred enemy against a specific designated enemy unit. 

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1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

Pretty sure he means the Emperor's Talon Recon Company Formation. 2-4 units of Scout/Armored Sentinels. Each unit must have 3 models, so requires at least 6 sentinels (2 squads). Gives a designated command sentinel, the ability to issue orders to the sentinel squadrons, plus preferred enemy against a specific designated enemy unit. 

Yep. Also from what I've read, doesn't it give the unit Outflank? Or am I just misremembering?

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5 minutes ago, Wellington99 said:

Yep. Also from what I've read, doesn't it give the unit Outflank? Or am I just misremembering?

Ah, yes, that too. I think I overlooked it because Scout Sentinels should have outflank anyway, but it would matter to those armored sentinels I suppose. 

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Well seeing as we're on the topic, would you kit all the Sentinels out with multilasers (3 shots at BS3, 50% hit, three chances), or would you say give armored Sentinels some extra hitting power with plasma/autocannon? I did think about kitbashing an Elysian Drop Sentinel with a melta or heavy bolter, basically Scout Sentinel with an unused melta from one of my Leman Russ kits done on with some green stuff or the heavy bolter from the HWT I didn't use again done on with greenstuff, but ended up just making another regular Scout Sentinel with multilaser.

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I prefer the Autocannon for the ability to crack enemy light vehicles, but the Multilaser isn't a bad gun, either. I'm not a big fan of the Armored Sentinel compared to the Scout one, though.

(The Drop Sentinel with a Multimelta is surprisingly scary. You might consider fixing one up to give it a whirl- it'll help a lot against those tanks.)

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6 minutes ago, AbusePuppy said:

I prefer the Autocannon for the ability to crack enemy light vehicles, but the Multilaser isn't a bad gun, either. I'm not a big fan of the Armored Sentinel compared to the Scout one, though.

(The Drop Sentinel with a Multimelta is surprisingly scary. You might consider fixing one up to give it a whirl- it'll help a lot against those tanks.)

I might do one armored with the autocannon but keep the rest Scouts.

 

Would I just run it as a Scout Sentinel just with a multimelta? And what points value would you give the multimelta? Considering it's not in the base Guard Codex.

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9 hours ago, AbusePuppy said:

The Drop Sentinel is a FW unit printed in Imperial Armour 1. It's a little on the pricey side, but IG don't have a ton of options for busting heavy armor.

 

Very pricey, that is. Base cost as an Armored Sentinel, but with Scout Sentinel Armor. 70pts with MM. It's also important to note that you can't use FW units with most formations (because most formations specifically call out the legal unit selections). I otherwise love these, and will be fielding my sentinels as these (but I'm often suckered for pricey units).

I will note that the mentioned Skytalon is one of the cheapest flyers in the game. I've been really tempted to buy one for a long time. That's a kit I really hope GW adds as a plastic kit upgrade for the Valk. 

As an aside, does Ordo really no longer care about posting copyrighted material on our site? Used to care, which is why I mention it.

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16 minutes ago, Wellington99 said:

Other than the Punisher, I'm thinking of grabbing a Demolisher Russ. What's the opinions on the Russ variants? Right now I have the standard and I think the Annhialator? Whatever's the name of the autocannon one

I find the Leman Russ Variants very underwhelming in this edition. It's not one aspect, this edition has just been really bad for Russes in lots of ways. The Heavy rule slows them down, but doesn't help them with their ordnance. The vehicle rules to hit vehicles in melee have gotten worse. Cover saves seem to be more common, while the russes can't really deny armor AND cover at the same time. And anti-tank weapons seem to be getting both more effective, and easier to acquire. Plus the Russes are very expensive in points.  

If you are looking at Russ Variants, there are two "kinda" russes from FW, the Thunderer Siege Tank and the Destroyer Tank Hunter. Both are from Imperial Armor 1. Basically, they are Russ variants that have the main gun as a hull mount. They have no turret and no sponsons. A very easy conversion, though the Thunder is still sold on the FW site. Unlike the Leman Russes, these do not have the Heavy rule (unless this is updated somewhere, but I couldn't find it).

The Thunderer Siege Tank has a Hull mounted Demolisher cannon. It can be taken in Squadrons at 140pts each tank. It has the same AV as a Demolisher.

The Destroyer Tank hunter has a Hull mount Heavy Laser Destroyer Array (basically a 60" lascannon with non-blast Ordnance and Twin-linked). Also available in squadrons at 160pts each tank. It has the AV as a vanquisher.

I tested the Destroyer Tank Hunter (partially competed conversion) recently as a 2-tank squadron. Two was a waste, as it hits just fine with the one tank. The Hull mount makes it a bit awkward, since you have point at your target in order to fire. The Long barrel also makes it occupy a lot of space, which can be a challenge with tank formations. 

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16 minutes ago, Wellington99 said:

Other than the Punisher, I'm thinking of grabbing a Demolisher Russ. What's the opinions on the Russ variants? Right now I have the standard and I think the Annhialator? Whatever's the name of the autocannon one

I find the Leman Russ Variants very underwhelming in this edition. It's not one aspect, this edition has just been really bad for Russes in lots of ways. The Heavy rule slows them down, but doesn't help them with their ordnance. The vehicle rules to hit vehicles in melee have gotten worse. Cover saves seem to be more common, while the russes can't really deny armor AND cover at the same time. And anti-tank weapons seem to be getting both more effective, and easier to acquire. Plus the Russes are very expensive in points.  

If you are looking at Russ Variants, there are two "kinda" russes from FW, the Thunderer Siege Tank and the Destroyer Tank Hunter. Both are from Imperial Armor 1. Basically, they are Russ variants that have the main gun as a hull mount. They have no turret and no sponsons. A very easy conversion, though the Thunder is still sold on the FW site. Unlike the Leman Russes, these do not have the Heavy rule (unless this is updated somewhere, but I couldn't find it).

The Thunderer Siege Tank has a Hull mounted Demolisher cannon. It can be taken in Squadrons at 140pts each tank. It has the same AV as a Demolisher.

The Destroyer Tank hunter has a Hull mount Heavy Laser Destroyer Array (basically a 60" lascannon with non-blast Ordnance and Twin-linked). Also available in squadrons at 160pts each tank. It has the AV as a vanquisher.

I tested the Destroyer Tank Hunter (partially competed conversion) recently as a 2-tank squadron. Two was a waste, as it hits just fine with the one tank. The Hull mount makes it a bit awkward, since you have point at your target in order to fire. The Long barrel also makes it occupy a lot of space, which can be a challenge with tank formations. 

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My standard Sentinel loadout is Autocannon/Hunter-Killer. Handy for Outflanking and popping some decent-Strength shots into Side Armour. The basic Multi-Laser is fine, tho, and I know some people who get results with the Heavy Flamer. The Multi-Melta Drop Sentinel is also pretty awesome. I wouldn't go for any of the other options on the basic Sentinels, tho.

The two Ordnance Russes are garbage right now. The Punisher is good, especially with Pask. The Exterminator (Autocannon) is solid but not amazing, and still a personal favorite of mine. The Executioner (Plasma) can be good with a source of re-rolls to keep it from frying itself, but it tends to be a big target, and they aren't as durable as they used to be. Vanquisher is (literally) very hit or miss. Saving the best for last, the Eradicator (Ignores Cover Large Blast) is an amazing bargain. If you just look at the statline, it's not that impressive, but it's so cheap that you're actually getting some major bang for your buck. Multi-Melta Sponsons turn it into a surprisingly good all-rounder while still keeping the price very reasonable.

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56 minutes ago, WestRider said:

My standard Sentinel loadout is Autocannon/Hunter-Killer. Handy for Outflanking and popping some decent-Strength shots into Side Armour. The basic Multi-Laser is fine, tho, and I know some people who get results with the Heavy Flamer. The Multi-Melta Drop Sentinel is also pretty awesome. I wouldn't go for any of the other options on the basic Sentinels, tho.

The two Ordnance Russes are garbage right now. The Punisher is good, especially with Pask. The Exterminator (Autocannon) is solid but not amazing, and still a personal favorite of mine. The Executioner (Plasma) can be good with a source of re-rolls to keep it from frying itself, but it tends to be a big target, and they aren't as durable as they used to be. Vanquisher is (literally) very hit or miss. Saving the best for last, the Eradicator (Ignores Cover Large Blast) is an amazing bargain. If you just look at the statline, it's not that impressive, but it's so cheap that you're actually getting some major bang for your buck. Multi-Melta Sponsons turn it into a surprisingly good all-rounder while still keeping the price very reasonable.

I did consider the Eradicator when I was settling on what to make my second Russ. It's been recommended to go for a Punisher for to get Pask for my third Russ, but it does mean I have to see about getting the parts for the Punisher gun as it doesn't come standard with the Russ kit at my local store (or order the Russ kit that comes with it).

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One question I do have again on the Sentinels is regarding their close combat capabilities. In the kits I got, they provided me with essentially a hull mounted chainsaw which I assume is a close combat weapon for the Sentinel. In the 40k Rulebook, it says that any close combat weapons count as +1 attack to the walker, but when I look in the AM codex, it does not show any close combat weapons for the Sentinels armored or scout as part of the base standard wargear or as a purchasable upgrade. Am I able to take said weapon on my Scout Sentinels as it shows in the AM codex picture of Catachan Scout Sentinels and does it cost any points to do so, or is it a moot thing?

 

I apologize if a number of my questions are rather simple. I only really got into playing 40k as of September of last year. Up until then I was a Fantasy Empire player who because I never found anyone who played Fantasy just ended up with an army that I never played, and I never found out about Age of Sigmar until probably a couple months ago when I took a look around.

 

As a side note, I can proxy my Empire Knights as Roughriders and have considered it. I happen to have some more that I've not yet assembled that I could fairly easily do. What's the opinions on them?

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36 minutes ago, necrontyr said:

The chainblade attachment is a throwback from the Catachan kit. It does nothing in the rules other than look cool. You are stuck with a single Str 5 attack in CC with Sentinels of any variety (save the FW loader Sentinels.)

Rough Riders are pretty much terrible. Overpriced guardsman survivability, few attacks, and they're one hit wonders.They have certain scenarios where they can be useful, but they are generally considered not worth the points.

Dang. I was hoping it was more than a decorative item. I've been thinking of at least using the Roughriders as more of a "Charge of the Light Brigade" type deal.

 

Regarding allies and CADs, with needing a command squad to run, could I proxy my Tempestor Command Squad as a command squad for the AM and then take two squads of Scions with a Commissar as the HQ choice as a Tempestus detachment? Or do I need a Tempestor Command Squad for the Scions and a regular Command Squad for the Guard?

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51 minutes ago, Wellington99 said:

One question I do have again on the Sentinels is regarding their close combat capabilities. In the kits I got, they provided me with essentially a hull mounted chainsaw which I assume is a close combat weapon for the Sentinel. In the 40k Rulebook, it says that any close combat weapons count as +1 attack to the walker, but when I look in the AM codex, it does not show any close combat weapons for the Sentinels armored or scout as part of the base standard wargear or as a purchasable upgrade. Am I able to take said weapon on my Scout Sentinels as it shows in the AM codex picture of Catachan Scout Sentinels and does it cost any points to do so, or is it a moot thing?

As a side note, I can proxy my Empire Knights as Roughriders and have considered it. I happen to have some more that I've not yet assembled that I could fairly easily do. What's the opinions on them?

Necrontyr has it right, regarding the sentinel kits. You could still use the chainsaw to represent Move through cover (and thus further distinguishing your scout sentinels from the armored ones). Or any number of other decorative uses, but it was included in the kit to intentionally represent the old rules that gave the sentinels bonuses in assault. 

I've still never used, or really seen used, the Rough Riders. That said, I did acquire a unit of them (old metal ones), so I'll definitely be fielding a unit at some point. The main issue with Rough Riders, at least on paper, is that their one-use Hunting Lances MUST be used in their first assault. This means that if you assault a vehicle, you can't use krak or melta bombs in that first round of assault. Kinda annoying feature of the Rough Riders. 

I did run a similar unit of Cavalry, the Khorne Daemonkin Bloodcrushers. Not really that similar, but they are both cavalry with a melee focus and 5+ saves (khorne saves are invulnerable, but same statistics if they don't deny them). The biggest issue I found was that cavalry, in this edition, take dangerous terrain checks for moving or charging through terrain. This really hurts units with only 5+ saves. So charging through terrain is going to be very lethal for Rough Riders (in addition to their already fragile nature).

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7 minutes ago, Wellington99 said:

Regarding allies and CADs, with needing a command squad to run, could I proxy my Tempestor Command Squad as a command squad for the AM and then take two squads of Scions with a Commissar as the HQ choice as a Tempestus detachment? Or do I need a Tempestor Command Squad for the Scions and a regular Command Squad for the Guard?

It would be confusing to have scion models as both proxies and representing themselves in the same army. Should probably try to stick to proxies, or them representing themselves (though if they are painted distinctly different, then it really wouldn't matter). You could certainly use a scion command squad to represent a AM command squad, especially if you upgrade them for carapace armor. 

If you are asking if the Scions CAD/allied detachment can use a Commissar to fill their HQ slot, I think the answer is yes, but I'd have to double check the book (I don't own it anymore). The downside, as I recall, is that the Scions can't access their codex specific orders without that command squad. 

Plus, if aren't taking the command squad, you may as well take scions from AM codex via elites slots. 

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8 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

It would be confusing to have scion models as both proxies and representing themselves in the same army. Should probably try to stick to proxies, or them representing themselves (though if they are painted distinctly different, then it really wouldn't matter). You could certainly use a scion command squad to represent a AM command squad, especially if you upgrade them for carapace armor. 

If you are asking if the Scions CAD/allied detachment can use a Commissar to fill their HQ slot, I think the answer is yes, but I'd have to double check the book (I don't own it anymore). The downside, as I recall, is that the Scions can't access their codex specific orders without that command squad. 

Plus, if aren't taking the command squad, you may as well take scions from AM codex via elites slots. 

Ok.  I could proxy the Scion Command Squad as an AM Command Squad with carapace, then take regular Scions as elites. Do I have that right?

 

in the book it just lists Commissars and the Command Squad as HQ options. Not sure if I need a Command Squad but I'll take a look

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