New 40k edition

[pretre]

[Lord Hanaur]

35 minutes ago, pretre said:

As for Hemlocks getting worse based on one quick mention? A little soon for that.

Its not.  They explained very clearly that I cannot run an entire unit off the board at one time, using the Hemlock.  That is empirically worse.  I don't think it's too soon at all.

[Lord Hanaur]

16 minutes ago, Sugarlessllama said:

I don't think so.

So if a unit of three Ogryn lose one model they would have to take a test. So that test would be d6+1. Which means if you rolled a 6 you would end up with a 7. So if Ogryn are leadership 6, they would lose a model. If they are leadership 7+ they wouldn't lose anything. I don't know what leadership Ogryn are since I don't play guard, but...

Their LD is like 5.

[pretre]

Quote

Or, you can use some units to make your opponent’s tests more difficult – the Hemlock Wraithfighter, as an example, decreases the Leadership of enemy units by 1 if they are within 12″ (which equates to one additional lost model on every failed test).

That appears to be just being on the field and is different from the active abilities. So again, too soon.

[deadwing34]

So it sounds like even WH30k will be getting a huge rules update that will be similar to WH40k 8th edition?

[Brother Glacius]

24 minutes ago, pretre said:

That appears to be just being on the field and is different from the active abilities. So again, too soon.

Yeah, but don't forget that thing, which affects that other....you know...when...so there. But then again, there could be...in certain cases...so...

#Trumpspeech

[pretre]

Exactly. One line about Hemlock is a little sparse.

[Brother Glacius]

The Hemlock is going to be great, especially when it does .... you know...and then there's that other...it's just the best ever. You'll love it.

[InfestedKerrigan]

57 minutes ago, deadwing34 said:

So it sounds like even WH30k will be getting a huge rules update that will be similar to WH40k 8th edition?

Yeah, looking like AoD will be 8th compatible/based, and not running 7.5.

[Sugarlessllama]

1 hour ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Their LD is like 5.

So I thought that number sounded a little low. After all, I can't think of many units in 40K with a Leadership Value that low. So doing some Google sleuthing, all the tactica articles I can find about Ogryn in 7th Edition list them as Leadership 6, 7 on the Sergeant.

But even if they were Leadership 5, the would be screwed worse under the current morale rules. Because after taking 25% casualties (one model), they would be taking a Leadership Test on 2d6 (average roll of 7) against Leadership 5. So they would be running as soon as they take a wound the majority of the time right now. So I don't see how a 4 in 6 chance (assuming Leadership Value of 5 rather than 6) of being totally fine is worse than the current system (where on an average roll, they break and run. And on an average roll they fail to rally).

[pretre]

Ogryn are 6, Bone 'eads are 7.

[Hobbitron]

I feel mixed on Morale. It will punish hordes pretty hard, combining a generally low LD with being squishy. And while they may get rules to minimize this (Mob Rule, Synapse, etc..) the more rules there are that ignore it, the less impactful it is anyway. And if ATSKNF modifies it (that doesn't seem like a crazy assumption) then the majority of armies played will be able to reduce the impact it has on the game. On the flipside, I do appreciate that even close checks will impact high point cost, multi wound model units. Failing by 1 and losing a paladin feeds my grudge against paladins.

It can also encourage spreading fire at times vs focusing fire. Forcing 3-4 units to make morale checks could be beneficial, rather than make 1 take a check with higher modifiers.

I dislike LD in general (now Morale) and how it's done in GW games just because there are enough ways to ignore it, that it doesn't really matter. Immune to Psych, Fearless, Stubborn, ATSKNF, LD rerolls, Inspiring Presence.... they take so many forms. It usually seems that is punishes certain armies severely, while many other armies ignore it almost completely.

[Munkie]

4 hours ago, Sugarlessllama said:

I don't think so.

So if a unit of three Ogryn lose one model they would have to take a test. So that test would be d6+1. Which means if you rolled a 6 you would end up with a 7. So if Ogryn are leadership 6, they would lose a model. If they are leadership 7+ they wouldn't lose anything. I don't know what leadership Ogryn are since I don't play guard, but if they are akin to Orks, the schmoes would have a leadership of 6, and the Sergeant would have a 7.

So in your BRUTAL scenario, the unit of Ogryn would have to lose their sergeant as a casualty, and then they have a 1 in 6 chance of losing an additional model.

So it's not that bad. I mean right now, you are rolling 2d6 against a leadership of 6 or 7 and risking them running off the board.

And we still don't know what effects rules like Stubborn have. And we don't know more things like Commissars, or other HQ units are going to have on the army.

I think the point is that relative to other units in 8th edition, multi-wound squads will suffer from disastrous morale tests most. Especially if they still have strength doubling out multi-wound models. Each successful wound would effectively turn into 6 (assuming a 3 wound model). It could be rough on some units. 

The balance to that, obviously, is you'd take fewer morale tests throughout the game as each wound you suffer has a 2/3rds chance of NOT being the one that forces a morale test. I'm cool with that trade-off as long as things are priced correctly.

 

[Lord Hanaur]

Grotesques are terrible as are BeastPacks on LD.  More examples.

[Threejacks]

Yes,high wound models in groups of 5 or so can take a beating with the Bravery system,,Oggors are a good example of that in AoS.However im sure all armies will have sources of enhancing Bravery and perhaps a generic ability for each armies General that would allow them to make one unit immune to battleshock each turn as per AoS.

 Overall horde armies got a huge boost in AoS with this Bravery system,,sure a block of 20 or so Orruks take 6 casualties,,then another 5 run away,,still far better than the entire unit running off the board.Im expeciting Orks to see a big boost from this system,,im itchin to see how a Green TIdes rules are affected now.

 

  Oh and also,,when those guys run off the board,,you get to choose which ones run,,so yeah pull your unit out of combat range if you like...can be a bit of a boon if your turn in next,ala recharge for a fresh set of bonuses and such:)

 

 

 

[WestRider]

Just now, Lord Hanaur said:

Grotesques are terrible as are BeastPacks on LD.  More examples.

Don't make assumptions until you see the new Statlines. There's no guarantee that they will remain that way.

17 minutes ago, Munkie said:

I think the point is that relative to other units in 8th edition, multi-wound squads will suffer from disastrous morale tests most. Especially if they still have strength doubling out multi-wound models. Each successful wound would effectively turn into 6 (assuming a 3 wound model). It could be rough on some units. 

The balance to that, obviously, is you'd take fewer morale tests throughout the game as each wound you suffer has a 2/3rds chance of NOT being the one that forces a morale test. I'm cool with that trade-off as long as things are priced correctly.

 

Instant Death is almost certainly out. That was a big part of the point of the addition of multi-Wound Weapons like the Lascannon Profile we saw. Also, with Morale Tests being taken on a single die, lower values aren't nearly as bad, especially for durable low Model-Count Units. Assume a Unit of 3 at Ld5. One goes down, they have a 1/3 chance to lose another, or the Unit altogether. In 7th, that Unit would be heading for the hills 2/3 of the time after failed Morale Test, and be unlikely to play a meaningful part in rest of the Game, given how harsh the Regrouping penalties are. In CC, they would just be dead. If they keep their Ld of 6/7, things just get better. At Ld 7, it's actually impossible to take further losses from a single downed Model.

[Sugarlessllama]

1 hour ago, Munkie said:

I think the point is that relative to other units in 8th edition, multi-wound squads will suffer from disastrous morale tests most. Especially if they still have strength doubling out multi-wound models. Each successful wound would effectively turn into 6 (assuming a 3 wound model). It could be rough on some units. 

The balance to that, obviously, is you'd take fewer morale tests throughout the game as each wound you suffer has a 2/3rds chance of NOT being the one that forces a morale test. I'm cool with that trade-off as long as things are priced correctly.

 

 

Well, the test is modified by the number of models lost, not by the number of wounds taken. So Multi-Wound models are in a better position to avoid taking tests in the first place. 

[Munkie]

4 hours ago, Sugarlessllama said:

Well, the test is modified by the number of models lost, not by the number of wounds taken. So Multi-Wound models are in a better position to avoid taking tests in the first place. 

Yes, that is a way to paraphrase my second paragraph.

[fluger]

New Warhammer 40,000: Battle-forged Armies

Battle-forged armies will be familiar to Warhammer 40,000 players today – it basically means that all the models in your army are part of a Detachment or Formation.

That is still largely true in the new Warhammer 40,000, but with a few changes.

The biggest of which is… wait for it…<puff of smoke>

Formations are gone.

That’s right, no more Formations. But don’t panic!

If your army is built using Formations right now, you’re going to be fine. In their place are a dozen new game-wide Detachments that are available to all factions. These are flexible enough that all of your current forces can be fit into them to form a Battle-forged army. The advantage of these is that all factions now have an even playing field of list building mechanics, rather than some having loads and some having to stick with the trusty Combined Arms option for every game.

These detachments are made up of a combination of 9 unit types, which will look very familiar to anyone who has played Warhammer 40,000 in the past two decades. Some you’ll recognise from Space Marines company markings and the classic Combined Arms detachment of today, plus Lords of War, Fortifications and the new one – Flyers, now with their own slot.

These Detachments come with a few benefits and restrictions. The most common restriction is that all units in a single Detachment must share a faction keyword (Tyranid, Blood Angels or Imperium for example). The most common bonus is that, depending on how optimised your army is for the logistics of war, you’ll get Command Points to spend. We’ll cover exactly what these can do for you soon, but trust us when we say they are incredibly useful if used wisely, and you generally get more of them if your army is a well rounded and balanced force.

Here are a few examples:

 

 

These are just a taste of the options available.

Battle-forged armies can be used with or without points, and we fully expect gamers playing matched or narrative play games to use these in most situations as they tend to create effective armies on the tabletop that also fit the background and lore of the setting. Matched play actually has a few extra rules too, designed for competitive events, which organisers can choose to use when setting the rules for Battle-forged armies – limits on the number of separate Detachments is one example.

We’ll be back again tomorrow with more news from the new Warhammer 40,000.

[fluger]

No more race-specific formations is excellent.  Everyone has access to the same formations and they have a variety.  Awesome.  

[pretre]

Battle-forged armies will be familiar to Warhammer 40,000 players today – it basically means that all the models in your army are part of a Detachment or Formation.|

 

 

That is still largely true in the new Warhammer 40,000, but with a few changes.

The biggest of which is… wait for it…<puff of smoke>

Formations are gone.

That’s right, no more Formations. But don’t panic!

If your army is built using Formations right now, you’re going to be fine. In their place are a dozen new game-wide Detachments that are available to all factions. These are flexible enough that all of your current forces can be fit into them to form a Battle-forged army. The advantage of these is that all factions now have an even playing field of list building mechanics, rather than some having loads and some having to stick with the trusty Combined Arms option for every game.

These detachments are made up of a combination of 9 unit types, which will look very familiar to anyone who has played Warhammer 40,000 in the past two decades. Some you’ll recognise from Space Marines company markings and the classic Combined Arms detachment of today, plus Lords of War, Fortifications and the new one – Flyers, now with their own slot.

These Detachments come with a few benefits and restrictions. The most common restriction is that all units in a single Detachment must share a faction keyword (Tyranid, Blood Angels or Imperium for example). The most common bonus is that, depending on how optimised your army is for the logistics of war, you’ll get Command Points to spend. We’ll cover exactly what these can do for you soon, but trust us when we say they are incredibly useful if used wisely, and you generally get more of them if your army is a well rounded and balanced force.

Here are a few examples:

These are just a taste of the options available.

Battle-forged armies can be used with or without points, and we fully expect gamers playing matched or narrative play games to use these in most situations as they tend to create effective armies on the tabletop that also fit the background and lore of the setting. Matched play actually has a few extra rules too, designed for competitive events, which organisers can choose to use when setting the rules for Battle-forged armies – limits on the number of separate Detachments is one example.

We’ll be back again tomorrow with more news from the new Warhammer 40,000.

 

 

 

[fluger]

Beat you to it!  

[pretre]

[PumpkinHead]

Not liking the 0-2 flyers on the detachment. That means you have to decide between crones, harpies, and flyrants, or take multiple detachments to try and fit them in.

[Kingpin]

Or maybe flyrants won't be flyers. Maybe they will be normal models with a high move characteristic.