Munkie Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 Their case for how good the power sword is seems weird—how is -3 to armor save good against everybody? It's only better at punching through armor when fighting 3+ or 2+ saves. Against almost all opponents the sword is mathematically worse than the axe. Nice try GW, but axes are still clearly the superior choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 4 minutes ago, Munkie said: Their case for how good the power sword is seems weird—how is -3 to armor save good against everybody? It's only better at punching through armor when fighting 3+ or 2+ saves. Against almost all opponents the sword is mathematically worse than the axe. Nice try GW, but axes are still clearly the superior choice. MEq vs MEq axe and sword are identical. Against things T6 and T7 the sword is better assuming the target has at least 4+ save. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 My dislike of Super heavies in normal games of 40K remains unabated, but It is what it is. So i will have to deal with them. If they are insisting on including these in normal games of 40K they had better give every single faction a REASONABLE way to counter it without dictating an entire list to it. If we end up in the "Guess i gotta take nothing but meltas" scenario, then we are right back where we started. How annoying is that? Unfortunately super heavies encourage, if not actually require, mono-builds. There's no other way to handle them BUT super high STR weapons, and now you will be forced to say "the hell with Storm Bolters and Flamers, there's five F'ing Knights on the field". I'm not wrong. You aren't going to sell me on the idea that massed bolters should be enough. Lol. They will shoot and walk through normal soldiers until the cows come home. Fishing for 6's isn't a "strategy". T8 is insane on a model with that many wounds. Did they learn nothing from WraithKnights? Apparently not. Frankie and Reece must have forgotten to mention it to them. My reaction to this was never going to be positive to begin with, but I didn't foresee them giving it T8. That surprises me and disappoints me. :( 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 minute ago, fluger said: MEq vs MEq axe and sword are identical. Against things T6 and T7 the sword is better assuming the target has at least 4+ save. Yeah, I think Munkie was referring to when they said, "that sword, for example, is looking pretty deadly against most things, with the AP-3 helping it against every type of foe" which is pretty blatantly not true. Not saying that the sword isn't improved assuming that most Monstrous Creatures fall into the T6/7 range and are good enough to see the table a fair amount of the time, but that's not the same as "AP-3 helping...against every type of foe." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 I am super stoked. for the past two years my Imperial Knights have been sitting on a shelf collecting dust. But now, they will finally be able to stride upon the field of battle! Huzzah! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PumpkinHead Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 I am excited that Trygons may become a thing again! Back to LoW status would make me SUPER happy! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PourSpelur Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 hour ago, phyfor88 said: -snip-. Orks have no shooting to hurt them. Just when the news was looking good, At least the rules are free. *Prognosticator hat on* Shokk Attack guns will be a solid choice for stuff like this. Have a random mechanic that means they swing from "meh" to " Im killin yer doodz!". *Prognosticator hat off* 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: My dislike of Super heavies in normal games of 40K remains unabated, but It is what it is. So i will have to deal with them. If they are insisting on including these in normal games of 40K they had better give every single faction a REASONABLE way to counter it without dictating an entire list to it. If we end up in the "Guess i gotta take nothing but meltas" scenario, then we are right back where we started. How annoying is that? Unfortunately super heavies encourage, if not actually require, mono-builds. There's no other way to handle them BUT super high STR weapons, and now you will be forced to say "the hell with Storm Bolters and Flamers, there's five F'ing Knights on the field". I'm not wrong. You aren't going to sell me on the idea that massed bolters should be enough. Lol. They will shoot and walk through normal soldiers until the cows come home. Fishing for 6's isn't a "strategy". T8 is insane on a model with that many wounds. Did they learn nothing from WraithKnights? Apparently not. Frankie and Reece must have forgotten to mention it to them. My reaction to this was never going to be positive to begin with, but I didn't foresee them giving it T8. That surprises me and disappoints me. :( Lot we don't know. Can a knight kill more than a handfull of models a turn? Doesn't look like it to me but will depend on what the new stomp does. How do you win a mission in 8ed? If they borrow from AoS you will need model counts to hold objectives in some missions. If that happens I can't see pure knight armies being viable...just like now in all honesty. We also don't know how strategems will play into it...since you aren't tied to a specific one from game to game you may now have some options when faced with a particular matchup. But we do know that now you can weaken IKs and similar units instead of needing to take them down to 0 before you have any affect on them. And by the looks of it most heavy weapons have the same average shot count needed to take one down. Except now you can throw in your regular weapons into that mix if needed. So overall I think there's a lot more balancing factors in play than before just based on what we know...and likely more to be revealed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 The Knights do look nasty but im betting they will cost at least 25% of a 2k army list so I wouldnt expect to see more than 4 in a list and that would be a pure list.With that,unless they can sport some highly OTT blast weapons I see a list like that having a very difficult time vs high model count builds. Sorry Winter,,posting at the same time,lol but yeah,,what you said:) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phyfor88 Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 11 minutes ago, PourSpelur said: *Prognosticator hat on* Shokk Attack guns will be a solid choice for stuff like this. Have a random mechanic that means they swing from "meh" to " Im killin yer doodz!". *Prognosticator hat off* Yes I am sure the shock attack gun will be so powerful that when it rolls double 6's the Orks automatically win. Most dependable weapon ever, he he. I love it but it seldom ever does anything useful and not ever dependable.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonwinter Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 55 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: My dislike of Super heavies in normal games of 40K remains unabated, but It is what it is. So i will have to deal with them. If they are insisting on including these in normal games of 40K they had better give every single faction a REASONABLE way to counter it without dictating an entire list to it. If we end up in the "Guess i gotta take nothing but meltas" scenario, then we are right back where we started. How annoying is that? Unfortunately super heavies encourage, if not actually require, mono-builds. There's no other way to handle them BUT super high STR weapons, and now you will be forced to say "the hell with Storm Bolters and Flamers, there's five F'ing Knights on the field". I'm not wrong. You aren't going to sell me on the idea that massed bolters should be enough. Lol. They will shoot and walk through normal soldiers until the cows come home. Fishing for 6's isn't a "strategy". T8 is insane on a model with that many wounds. Did they learn nothing from WraithKnights? Apparently not. Frankie and Reece must have forgotten to mention it to them. My reaction to this was never going to be positive to begin with, but I didn't foresee them giving it T8. That surprises me and disappoints me. :( Killing knights and other super-heavy's just got a lot easier. Str 5 weapons wound them on 5+ and with rending you can make their saves a lot less. Also they degrade a lot when damaged. Tyranids even got a boost with trygons being able to maybe kill them in one round of combat. Before our only option 5 flyrants with e-grubs and then you had to be lucky. Melta is going to be king in killing them true but lots of heavy bolters will do the job as well. T8 is not quite the same as it is now. many armies will have the tools to kill them in shooting or in combat. Ork will drown them in combat with wounds. Loos like Tyranids will do the same as well. Fire warriors can would them at 30 inches on 5+ with there basic troop. seams good to me. lots of wounds re going to be tossed about on both side I feel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 2 hours ago, phyfor88 said: Ughh Knights are still amazing. I see do not see this as good. Again I will have to ask what are you playing? Then say never mind. Orks have no shooting to hurt them. Just when the news was looking good, At least the rules are free. Rokkits, Rokkits, and moar Rokkits. Especially if the to-Hit bonus for Large Targets comes back and Tankbustaz still have some sort of relevant bonus. Follow up with a Charge from MANz or Nobz as needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Lord Hanaur said: T8 is insane on a model with that many wounds. Did they learn nothing from WraithKnights? Apparently not. Consider how different it is already knowing what we know. To get a wound on a Wraithknight with a Heavy Bolter in 7th required 27 Heavy Bolter HITS. To get a wound on a T8 3+ save model like the Imp Knight requires 6 HB hits. Obviously the difference between the two is the Knight has 24 wounds compared to the 6 of the Wraithknight but it still skews towards the new edition. As well, going from 0% chance on a lasgun to a 5.6% chance is no small thing. Finally, look at lascannons. Each hit averages about 1.5 wounds, 16 average lascannon hits to bring it down. And, we're not even factoring in potential rules like +1 to hit or different strategems you can use. Heck, even just having the re-roll allows critical hits with high power guns to work with more regularity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 40 minutes ago, winterman said: Lot we don't know. Can a knight kill more than a handfull of models a turn? Doesn't look like it to me but will depend on what the new stomp does. How do you win a mission in 8ed? If they borrow from AoS you will need model counts to hold objectives in some missions. If that happens I can't see pure knight armies being viable...just like now in all honesty. We also don't know how strategems will play into it...since you aren't tied to a specific one from game to game you may now have some options when faced with a particular matchup. But we do know that now you can weaken IKs and similar units instead of needing to take them down to 0 before you have any affect on them. And by the looks of it most heavy weapons have the same average shot count needed to take one down. Except now you can throw in your regular weapons into that mix if needed. So overall I think there's a lot more balancing factors in play than before just based on what we know...and likely more to be revealed. I think beleaguering the fact that we don't know everything isn't truly an argument? We know enough now about the weapons and about IK's to extrapolate what i said. Melee has never been where the Knights want to be unless there's something really big that needs killing. That's known now, no change there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, fluger said: Consider how different it is already knowing what we know. To get a wound on a Wraithknight with a Heavy Bolter in 7th required 27 Heavy Bolter HITS. To get a wound on a T8 3+ save model like the Imp Knight requires 6 HB hits. Obviously the difference between the two is the Knight has 24 wounds compared to the 6 of the Wraithknight but it still skews towards the new edition. As well, going from 0% chance on a lasgun to a 5.6% chance is no small thing. Finally, look at lascannons. Each hit averages about 1.5 wounds, 16 average lascannon hits to bring it down. And, we're not even factoring in potential rules like +1 to hit or different strategems you can use. Heck, even just having the re-roll allows critical hits with high power guns to work with more regularity. I have not discounted that some weapons will now be able to hurt it when previously they could not. they also increased their Hull points x4. So no amount of "gee thats great" is going to make me feel better about 5 Knights! Lol. 120 wounds. That is almost an unthinkable number in 7th at T8 and it DOESNT mean the same as it did in 7th (that's true) but that is an OCEAN of wounds by any measure. ANY measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: I think beleaguering the fact that we don't know everything isn't truly an argument? Quote Unfortunately super heavies encourage, if not actually require, mono-builds. There's no other way to handle them BUT super high STR weapons, and now you will be forced to say "the hell with Storm Bolters and Flamers, there's five F'ing Knights on the field". I'm not wrong. Neither is making declarations of how things are now in 8ed without the full rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, winterman said: Neither is making declarations of how things are now in 8ed without the full rules. the statements were appropriately qualified in present and past tense. and 120 T8 wounds? Does any army you have now approach that? Just asking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 Rem..just because the Super Heavy formation they showed has up to 5 units in it doesnt mean that you can have 5 IK`s...Im thinking the upper end of that is probably for Ork Nauts and other lower pointed SH`s...certainly could be wrong but looking at the stats they just showed,,the IK is going to be very spendy all others considered..likely the same will go for the WK`s. Plus as Winter stated..we dont know the scenarios yet and there could very well be objectives that require model count advantage to control them as per AoS,,its very common so swarms are going to be a huge problem for the Mechwarrior army player. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 why? the Knight can walk right over them. Cant be locked by them as far as i can tell in the new version. So... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 I think you will be pleasantly suprised how the Uber Heavy`s pan out 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Threejacks said: I think you will be pleasantly suprised how the Uber Heavy`s pan out For their users you mean? The 24 wounds and a 3+ save? I imagine the users of those models will indeed be pleasantly surprised at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 We get it, you don't like fun things in your games. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingpin Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 You are also assuming that 5 knights still fit into a 2000 point list. With all the buffs and changes who is to say they still cost the same points. A little early for the sky is falling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted May 19, 2017 Report Share Posted May 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said: We get it, you don't like fun things in your games. Yes, its the fun things I detest. Thats exactly what it is. No dissent allowed. Got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 20 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: No dissent allowed. Got it. HH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.