Lord Hanaur Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said: I run Knights (ie, no issue with MSU). Almost everytime you mention an event, you mention a way to ban them and feel justified in it, since you seem to feel they are evil. Power level 12 (as the example you brought up) includes banning 2 man Broadside Squads, so MSU is a direct consequence even if not your intent (Which I bellieve is banning IK). Tell me how that doesn't favor MSU? It doesn't "Favor" them when everyone is playing by the same rules. So your real axe to grind isn't the concept. It's that you would have to modify in some way what you play (gasp!), and you just flat don't like giving in to that. There's not much I can say to that. The Power system does however allow us to see how "friendly" the units are comparatively and decide how much unfriendliness we are willing to accept, in a very easy form... Like OFCC did once upon a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 No, the power system has nothing to do with friendliness. And your proposed power limitation is just another Comp that doesn't do what it intends. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 30 minutes ago, pretre said: No, the power system has nothing to do with friendliness. And your proposed power limitation is just another Comp that doesn't do what it intends. we disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just to add a small note here, with the new ruleset, we don't really know how those power levels match up quite yet. So people are going to be making assumptions on how they relate between units. So before you entrench yourself too much in your opinion, how about we give the system a chance first? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 hours ago, pretre said: It doesn't work like that. Mostly, it just has a little exception on the Movement page for Shooting after falling back and moving over enemy models. And allows you to charge airborne units (non-hover flyers) which is pretty sexy too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 Yeah, good call. I didn't put that one down, but it is neat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 31 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said: Just to add a small note here, with the new ruleset, we don't really know how those power levels match up quite yet. So people are going to be making assumptions on how they relate between units. So before you entrench yourself too much in your opinion, how about we give the system a chance first? well, we ARE already playing 8th Edition games. The points and power levels are pretty straightforward. the way you use them is as well. So I'm not sure trhere's much more to wait for. the only uitility I was recommending is the blenid of the two when it would be your goal to temper the level of cheddar you want to allow. Its such a simple way to accomplish it that we dont need a list rating committe for. Its visually obvious that a 24 power Obelisk is going to smash face on its Power 5 targets. My friend Rick walked up to us while we were poring over the books and told me that one of his frustrations is that he spent money for his stuff, took the time to plan and ddeploy it and to just see entire units wiped in their entirety before they act was very much why he didn't play 7th Edition. skipped all of 6th essentially as well. He just felt like turn one annihilation really took away from his fun and if you werent the one going first in particular. That was HIS sentiment to me last night. I could see his point. tournaments will be points based. My only suggestion was to make use of the Power Levels as well to temper your events when tempering them makes sense to the TO, or even as a change of pace. I wasn't suggesting every tournament adopt such limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Lord Hanaur said: It doesn't "Favor" them when everyone is playing by the same rules. So your real axe to grind isn't the concept. It's that you would have to modify in some way what you play (gasp!), and you just flat don't like giving in to that. There's not much I can say to that. The Power system does however allow us to see how "friendly" the units are comparatively and decide how much unfriendliness we are willing to accept, in a very easy form... Like OFCC did once upon a time. The Power Level system doesn't do that any more or less than the Points System does. "No Units of greater than PL12" is roughly equivalent to "No Units worth more than 240 Points", except that it requires some Units to load up on upgrades and wargear (which generally don't increase PL) rather than extra Models (which always do). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 I'm just so glad that you are already an expert before the game has even been released. Huge weight off my shoulders. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said: I'm just so glad that you are already an expert before the game has even been released. Huge weight off my shoulders. That's...not what I said. Anyways, onward and upwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 53 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: tournaments will be points based. My only suggestion was to make use of the Power Levels as well to temper your events when tempering them makes sense to the TO, or even as a change of pace. I wasn't suggesting every tournament adopt such limitations. What Westie said. Power Levels are just points lite so you can quickly make approximately matched forces without getting out calculators. It has nothing to do with Friendliness. You are literally just saying "no units above 260 pts" That wouldn't've made friendly events in 7th (hello scatterbike spam!) and it means bubkus now. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 15 minutes ago, fluger said: What Westie said. Power Levels are just points lite so you can quickly make approximately matched forces without getting out calculators. It has nothing to do with Friendliness. You are literally just saying "no units above 260 pts" That wouldn't've made friendly events in 7th (hello scatterbike spam!) and it means bubkus now. Nice examples! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 So I don't really understand the idea here LH. So your idea is to prohibit the use of models and units based on points value? So if I brought my Imperial Knight to play at your thing I would be turned away? That doesn't seem very cool. I mean people spend a lot of money to buy models; and then they work really hard getting them painted. So to just say "Nah. I don't like that army so it is prohibited" is not cool IMHO. I mean like it or not, they are part of the game. They are a valid faction. And people (myself included) have spent hundreds of dollars building said armies. I mean, I don't like FW stuff because it is usually broken as hell, but that doesn't mean I am going to tell people that they can't use those models. Are you prohibiting Riptides, Wraithknights, Blood Thirsters, etc. as well? How about Harlequins? They have a faction wide 4++. That completely nullifies the rend mechanic that is so integral to the game. Where is the line of demarcation? especially for a rules set that hasn't been released yet. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 I, for one, think knights look cool and take a ton of time to paint. I don't want people turned away after all that effort. I look forward to nibbling away at them bit by bit until they're naught but a pair of giant smoldering robo-feet! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Sugarlessllama said: So I don't really understand the idea here LH. So your idea is to prohibit the use of models and units based on points value? So if I brought my Imperial Knight to play at your thing I would be turned away? That doesn't seem very cool. I mean people spend a lot of money to buy models; and then they work really hard getting them painted. So to just say "Nah. I don't like that army so it is prohibited" is not cool IMHO. I mean like it or not, they are part of the game. They are a valid faction. And people (myself included) have spent hundreds of dollars building said armies. I mean, I don't like FW stuff because it is usually broken as hell, but that doesn't mean I am going to tell people that they can't use those models. Are you prohibiting Riptides, Wraithknights, Blood Thirsters, etc. as well? How about Harlequins? They have a faction wide 4++. That completely nullifies the rend mechanic that is so integral to the game. Where is the line of demarcation? especially for a rules set that hasn't been released yet. The rules HAVE been accessible, whether you personally have access or not i couldnt say. I have been reading them every day the past four days. I didn't say points, i said Power. As for your other commentary: You know long before you get to OFCC that there are limitations (spoken or unspoken) and would of course have plenty of time to adjust. So there's nothing "uncool" about it anymore than it was "uncool" of the ITC to make limitations on Super heavies in 7E or to nerf Invisibility. No more than it was "uncool" for a list committee to reject certain lists at OFCC. This subject came up because we were having a discussion about doing a 7th edition tournament wherein the units had to be 199 points or lower. Arbitrary number. This was simply for the fun of the variety of trying it. No ones "out to get you" when they set limitations like that. Treating it like they are is the issue, not the limitation itself. Go to the hypothetical tournament if you like the idea and don't go if you don't. I have no issue with someone saying "I am literally incapable of playing an army without a unit that is X Power in it, and even if I could, i will cross my arms and skip all the fun I might have had" I get it. People like to make a point. Doing so is a thing. The line of demarkation is wherever the TO sets is. I have no real sense of where it might be best. 13 seems likely after looking at different builds and factions and how their units are done. But I have no immediate plans to run a tournament like this so it is fodder for discussion only. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: The rules HAVE been accessible, whether you personally have access or not i couldnt say. I have been reading them every day the past four days. I didn't say points, i said Power. As for your other commentary: You know long before you get to OFCC that there are limitations (spoken or unspoken) and would of course have plenty of time to adjust. So there's nothing "uncool" about it anymore than it was "uncool" of the ITC to make limitations on Super heavies in 7E or to nerf Invisibility. No more than it was "uncool" for a list committee to reject certain lists at OFCC. This subject came up because we were having a discussion about doing a 7th edition tournament wherein the units had to be 199 points or lower. Arbitrary number. This was simply for the fun of the variety of trying it. No ones "out to get you" when they set limitations like that. Treating it like they are is the issue, not the limitation itself. Go to the hypothetical tournament if you like the idea and don't go if you don't. I have no issue with someone saying "I am literally incapable of playing an army without a unit that is X Power in it, and even if I could, i will cross my arms and skip all the fun I might have had" I get it. People like to make a point. Doing so is a thing. The line of demarkation is wherever the TO sets is. I have no real sense of where it might be best. 13 seems likely after looking at different builds and factions and how their units are done. But I have no immediate plans to run a tournament like this so it is fodder for discussion only. Nope. Still uncool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 13 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: I didn't say points, i said Power. Power is just simplified points. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Sugarlessllama said: Nope. Still uncool. No idea why you think that way but I have explained it. Not much more i can do. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, Lord Hanaur said: No idesa why you think that way but I have explained it. Not much more i can do. =) I know you explained your reasoning. However, I do not agree. Just because you have a reason behind your decision, it does not make your decision objectively correct. It just means you have made a decision. You explained the reasons behind your decision. I have listened to your reasons, and decided for myself that from my point of view, they are not good reasons, and therefore decided that I think you were incorrect in your decision making. And so all that is left is that we respectfully disagree. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhailLenin Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 Honestly, I have made almost now 2-3 armies per Sub Faction at 2k and they all mostly float around 95 Power. Power for all intents and purposes is basically 1 Power = 21.05 Points. I do not understand why they added effectively the same mechanic as points other than they just wanted an easier for new comers to come to a table without spending hours thinking about the best way to maximize their units. Any comp based on Power is just simply dumb. Any comp in 8th is dumb plain and simple. The WHOLE point of the revamped edition changes is they will have have a yearly cadence release of updated point values to units to keep the playing field "balanced". Comp is dead long live 8th. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 23 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: I didn't say points, i said Power. In your mind, what is the difference, functionally, of power levels and points? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhailLenin Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 minute ago, fluger said: In your mind, what is the difference, functionally, of power levels and points? Don't Feed it Fluger! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 minute ago, MikhailLenin said: I do not understand why they added effectively the same mechanic as points other than they just wanted an easier for new comers to come to a table without spending hours thinking about the best way to maximize their units. Yup, quick and dirty way to make up lists on the fly to get games in without sitting around adding things up carefully. I know that I have friends who find list writing to be tedious and daunting, and, the power level system is much more streamlined. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 49 minutes ago, Sugarlessllama said: I know you explained your reasoning. However, I do not agree. Just because you have a reason behind your decision, it does not make your decision objectively correct. It just means you have made a decision. You explained the reasons behind your decision. I have listened to your reasons, and decided for myself that from my point of view, they are not good reasons, and therefore decided that I think you were incorrect in your decision making. And so all that is left is that we respectfully disagree. I think you disagree with the conclusion. i think the reasoning would never have mattered. If I had a 426 point Obelisk and said "Is this freindly" 120 people would chime in coming from all angles with what is ultimately a yes or a no with lots of people making lots of good points. The one thing we know for sure is that at 426 points, you can pretty well bet it does something awesome and scary. You can bet that the concerns Rick has ,which i shared earlier, are going to be well founded when the obelisk goes first and begins to express itself destructively. Now that is not to say that the Obelisk is really OP. It wasn't in 7th, it was probably the best pointed unit in the edition (again subjectively). But the point is, it's going to do WORK. Now the one side of the brain says: "I paid the points. Why should I mourn for the dead ti creates? Their equal number of points might blow me up by the end of round one as well". The other side of the argument goes: "Sure, but is that really going to make our game more fun, or is it just going to make it shorter and less satisfying to paint models? Don't we kind of want to see more?" Neither point of view is particularly wrong as far as it goes; but the Ricks of the world would like it very much if they didn't spend the time, money and painting love on models that essentially never do a thing. Rick might say "You know, if we use a little less powerful stuff, we could probably make it more of a fight and less of a "Who goes first with their mega-giganto thing". So he sues for a game that tones down the craziness. The result of the compromise is a Power limitation. Not so constricting as points, because we already agreed to a points limit...but now we are agreeing to make the game a little less about who goes first and a little more about getting the mileage out of your models. I really don't see, in any of what I just said, some overt attack on you... nor on what kind of games you like nor even a demand that you accept this format as anything other than a pleasant diversion from the norm. Nothing. Because it is just that: another fun way to challenge yourself using less powerful things. I don't see anything here thats "uncool". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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