New 40k edition

[Sugarlessllama]

3 minutes ago, fluger said:

Yup, quick and dirty way to make up lists on the fly to get games in without sitting around adding things up carefully.

I know that I have friends who find list writing to be tedious and daunting, and, the power level system is much more streamlined.  

I know that it is very unlikely that I will be using points in lieu of power levels in the new edition. I disliked list building before, and having fixed unit values is delightful to me.

[Sugarlessllama]

3 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I think you disagree with the conclusion.  i think the reasoning would never have mattered.  

If I had a 426 point Obelisk and said "Is this freindly" 120 people would chime in coming from all angles with what is ultimately a yes or a no with lots of people making lots of good points.

The one thing we know for sure is that at 426 points, you can pretty well bet it does something awesome and scary.  You can bt that the concerns Rick has ,which i shared earlier, are going to be well founded when the obelisk goes first and begins to express itself destructively.  Now that is not to say that the Obelisk is really OP.  It wasn't in 7th, it was probably the best pointed unit in the edition (again subjectively).  But the point is, it's going to do WORK.

 

Now the one side of the brain says:  "I paid the points so why should I mourn for the dead ti creates?  their equal numbr of points might blow me up by the end of round one as well".

The other side of the argument goes:  "sure, but is that really going to make our game more fun, or is it just going to make it shorter?  Don't we kind of want to see more?"

Neither point of view is particularly wrong as far as it goes, but the Ricks of the world would like it very much if they didnt spend the time, money and painting love on models that essentially never do a thing and so Rick might say "You know, if we use a little less powerful stuff, we could probably make it more of a fight and less of a "Who goes first with their mag-giganto thing".  So he sues for a game that tones down the craziness.  The result of the compromise is a Power limitation.  Not so constricting as points, because we already agreed to a points limit...but now we are agreeing to make the game a little lesss about who goes first and a little more about getting the mileage out of your models.

I really don't see, in any of what I just said, some overt attack on you...what kind of games you like nor a demand that you accept this format as anything other than a pleasant diversion from the norm.  Nothing.  Because it is just that:  another fun way to challenge yourself using less powerful things.

I don't see anything here thats "uncool".

 

 

 

Le sigh.

I understood your reasoning. And yes, it did matter. And yes, I still disagree. Please do not attempt to define my thought processes for me.
 

1.) Prohibiting an entire faction sets a bad example. If Imperial Knights are prohibited, why not Eldar? Tau?

2.) Leveraging 7th reasoning in 8th is not.... wise. 8th is a very different game, and we haven't fully tested the rules yet. And while you may have gotten your hands on the rules, it doesn't mean that everyone else has. Making event decisions based upon what you were able to glean off of Reddit before general circulation is not the best policy IMHO.  

3.) I never said you were attacking me. I asked questions and stated what I thought. "Cool" is subjective. In case you didn't notice, a lot of people in the world don't think toy soldiers are "cool". You were the one being aggro first. And I stand by my statement.

4.) Tournaments. I dislike them. A lot. However, they have a purpose in 40K. To best all of your opponents using all the tools in your tool box. That's it. They is no narrative. There is no lore. There isn't an overarching storyline to be shared with the world. There is a win/loss ratio and a leaderboard. And if that is how you are going to roll, then why remove a faction as a whole? It's like having the NBA finals and prohibiting centers over 6'7. "Well the NBA finals is just a friendly match." No. It is not. There is a trophy. There is a losers bracket.  If you want it to be friendly, then host open play, a mini-campaign, or a story based battle. But a tournament is none of these.

Thus, I will continue to respectfully disagree.

[fluger]

58 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

The one thing we know for sure is that at 426 points, you can pretty well bet it does something awesome and scary.  You can bet that the concerns Rick has ,which i shared earlier, are going to be well founded when the obelisk goes first and begins to express itself destructively.  Now that is not to say that the Obelisk is really OP.  It wasn't in 7th, it was probably the best pointed unit in the edition (again subjectively).  But the point is, it's going to do WORK.

In I Go You Go games, MSU is almost always the most efficient unless a death star can be achieved, and even then requires MSU backup.  426 pts of Obelisk is intrinsically less powerful in 7th than equal points of small units of scatter bikes or what have you.  When the advantage of going first is using one's entire army first, it matters not at all how it is divied up, because it is 2k pts activating first.  

Interestingly, the mechanic of who goes first in 8th edition is set to counter the power of MSU by letting the person who finished deploying first go first.  

[Threejacks]

2 hours ago, MikhailLenin said:

Honestly,

I have made almost now 2-3 armies per Sub Faction at 2k and they all mostly float around 95 Power. 
Power for all intents and purposes is basically 1 Power = 21.05 Points. I do not understand why they added effectively the same mechanic as points other than they just wanted an easier for new comers to come to a table without spending hours thinking about the best way to maximize their units. 
Any comp based on Power is just simply dumb.
Any comp in 8th is dumb plain and simple. The WHOLE point of the revamped edition changes is they will have have  a yearly cadence release of updated point values to units to keep the playing field "balanced". 

Comp is dead long live 8th.

  I sure hope you are right:)

   Most AoS events have very little if any comp so far,,and with the GH2 looming those few items will likely go away.But AoS has been pretty much an open beta of the new rulesets so if AoS is any indication,then yes Comp may finally be dead for both games.

 

  With that,,i would very much be interested in an event that uses a set power level using some of the new Battlezone rules and perhaps sideboards of say,25% of the total power levels represented.Power levels seem very fun and casual oriented,,I wish AoS would have done that to start with,,would have really helped things out in those early days.

 I would even venture to say the power level play may end up being a rather popular way to play nu40k

[Lord Hanaur]

1 hour ago, Sugarlessllama said:

Making event decisions based upon what you were able to glean off of Reddit before general circulation is not the best policy IMHO.  

 

You're misunderstanding.  I am looking at the ACTUAL books.  I've been reading them the last four days and we've played practice games. Just to clarify.

[Lord Hanaur]

2 hours ago, Sugarlessllama said:

Iif that is how you are going to roll, then why remove a faction as a whole? 

No one is eliminating an entire faction, although a single faction might not fit that tournament...in which case I repeat what I said earlier, which is that you have other models.  The refusal to use them is sort of not within the scope of what the event needs to concern itself with.  That is just a choice.  If you dislike tournaments, you wouldn't have been there anyways.  Assuming you do come, just bring what fits.  Just like OFCC used to be.  People flocked to OFCC BECAUSE it was a less power-gamer oriented event.  That was a seriously major focus of the event.  People loved it.  But again, you say you hate tournaments, which I understand.  I suppose right from the word go, the subject is somewhat moot anyways for you.

[Munkie]

2 hours ago, fluger said:

In I Go You Go games, MSU is almost always the most efficient unless a death star can be achieved, and even then requires MSU backup.  426 pts of Obelisk is intrinsically less powerful in 7th than equal points of small units of scatter bikes or what have you.  When the advantage of going first is using one's entire army first, it matters not at all how it is divied up, because it is 2k pts activating first.  

Interestingly, the mechanic of who goes first in 8th edition is set to counter the power of MSU by letting the person who finished deploying first go first.  

100% agree.

And I would add that 8th also has a check on MSU in the Fight Phase. Chargers going first does give the active player a huge advantage in the phase, but after that, things will get muddy if they play MSU. If that charge doesn't break the enemy, and all those multi-chargers get stuck in, then the next turn the opponent chooses the first combat. Their 1 unit can swing at 2-3 MSU before they have a chance to retaliate. Pretty inefficient exchange.

That, and how easy multi-charges are to pull off, makes it kind of a do-or-die phase for MSU armies.

In the shooting phase, splitting fire freely is also a counter to MSU, but I don't think that'll be as impactful.

[Threejacks]

 I think it will also be revealed,once the game starts getting a wide assortment of play,,that huge pointed models are the most inefficient units.A list with one or two big boys can certainly be strong but for the most part it will be the 5-10 model elite and 10-40 model hordes that win games.

[InfestedKerrigan]

8 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

It doesn't "Favor" them when everyone is playing by the same rules.  

So your real axe to grind isn't the concept.  It's that you would have to modify in some way what you play (gasp!), and you just flat don't like giving in to that.

There's not much I can say to that. The Power system does however allow us to see how "friendly" the units are comparatively and decide how much unfriendliness we are willing to accept, in a very easy form...  Like OFCC did once upon a time.

 

I have 2500 in NightLords, 1500 in Chaos Daemons, and around 3000 in non Knight Imperium. A lack of things to play isn't my problem. 

If you suggested tourneys or held events that were "2k, 12PL min unit cost" I'd believe that you don't have an axe to grind.  

But as well as we all know Sugarlessllama hates tourneys, we know you dislike the concept of Super Heavies, LoW, FW, etc.  I can count on you for that. I would love to play at your Ambassadorial as the ambassador of the Imperial Knights household.  And yes, only as Imperial Knights. Stubborn? No more so than your refusal to consider them. 

Hell, we didn't even have the rules for things and you were complaining about Knights. It makes me think you have a biased axe to grind, and all I want is to participate in "Lord Hanaur Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Supes"

 

All we are saying is give war a chance.

[happycamper]

 

[InfestedKerrigan]

Doesn't the bible say something about Gamer on Gamer and Male Gamer on Gamer action? GoG and MaGoG causing ruin or some crap?

[InfestedKerrigan]

 I know I break more models that way.

[Treads-n-Wings]

1 hour ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

All we are saying is give war a chance.

Someone should make a spoof song about that.

[Threejacks]

 On the topic of Power levels,im noticing at least for the Space Wolves that adding a WG pack leader(non terminator armor) using matched play points doesnt cost anymore,,yet in the power level system it does add one.Seems a bit odd...

 

[Lord Hanaur]

4 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

I have 2500 in NightLords, 1500 in Chaos Daemons, and around 3000 in non Knight Imperium. A lack of things to play isn't my problem. 

If you suggested tourneys or held events that were "2k, 12PL min unit cost" I'd believe that you don't have an axe to grind.  

But as well as we all know Sugarlessllama hates tourneys, we know you dislike the concept of Super Heavies, LoW, FW, etc.  I can count on you for that. I would love to play at your Ambassadorial as the ambassador of the Imperial Knights household.  And yes, only as Imperial Knights. Stubborn? No more so than your refusal to consider them. 

Hell, we didn't even have the rules for things and you were complaining about Knights. It makes me think you have a biased axe to grind, and all I want is to participate in "Lord Hanaur Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Supes"

 

All we are saying is give war a chance.

I dont pretend I don't have a bias.  I explain my bias.  I am forthright about my feelings and dont try to say that I don't have a bias using a labrynth of spurious logic.  I absolutely do not like Forge World nor the inclusion of Super Heavies.  

All evidence suggests I can kill it just fine.  

What I am talking about has zero to do with either one.  A lot more than JUST super Heavies are gone depending on where you draw the line.

Along with my clear...and re-iterated...  fellings about those things you mention are my many and more numerous posts about community.  I'm all about hoping to keep or attract more people to the hobby.  I expend considerable energy to that end and while I definitely don't need a medal for it, 8th Edition presents opportunity we should seize in regards to new players.

Using Power in the way I describe is one more tool in the toolbox for that purpose.  Sure, someone miiiiight want to start with Imperial Knights.  They might.  Most don't.  Thats the reality.  And the majority will enjoy the break from soul crushing first turn losses.  

Explaining Points has evoked a ton of enthusiasm in some people who really have been done with the game.  So have newbs who are starting.  It's a notably positive response.

I don't feel "screwed" when a tournament says "we're doing a highlander event".  I just switch my army up.  Thats all this is really.  Same basic motivations, different path.  Same as OFCC was founded on really.

 

 

 

[The Last Guardsmen]

On 5/19/2017 at 11:54 AM, Lord Hanaur said:

My dislike of Super heavies in normal games of 40K remains unabated, but It is what it is.  So i will have to deal with them.

If they are insisting on including these in normal games of 40K they had better give every single faction a REASONABLE way to counter it without dictating an entire list to it.  If we end up in the "Guess i gotta take nothing but meltas" scenario, then we are right back where we started.  How annoying is that?  Unfortunately super heavies encourage, if not actually require, mono-builds.  There's no other way to handle them BUT super high STR weapons, and now you will be forced to say "the hell with Storm Bolters and Flamers, there's five F'ing Knights on the field".  I'm not wrong.  You aren't going to sell me on the idea that massed bolters should be enough.  Lol.  They will shoot and walk through normal soldiers until the cows come home.  Fishing for 6's isn't a "strategy".

T8 is insane on a model with that many wounds.  Did they learn nothing from WraithKnights?  Apparently not.  Frankie and Reece must have forgotten to mention it to them.

My reaction to this was never going to be positive to begin with, but I didn't foresee them giving it T8.  That surprises me and disappoints me. :(  

I think you're being a bit over dramatic. This edition changed some thing but at the heart of things its still the same ball game. A balanced force prepared for anything will win out in the end. Mind you I haven't deviated from my standard build structure for almost two editions now and I play what might be called a odd-ball style IG army. Hell I took on a Baronial Court once. My two super heavies contributed mostly as distractions. The real heroes were my standard line tanks and HWTs.

[Lord Hanaur]

16 minutes ago, DasBox said:

I think you're being a bit over dramatic. This edition changed some thing but at the heart of things its still the same ball game. A balanced force prepared for anything will win out in the end. Mind you I haven't deviated from my standard build structure for almost two editions now and I play what might be called a odd-ball style IG army. Hell I took on a Baronial Court once. My two super heavies contributed mostly as distractions. The real heroes were my standard line tanks and HWTs.

I think you might be missing the core of what I said in this post even despite the bold face text.

What I said was that the inclusion of those dictates MY list in a way other units don't.  It pretty much invalidates more interesting and flexible choices with the hard core reality that if there IS that much armor to deal with, you really don't have a choices that matters in counter list construction.  I mean you can TECHNICALLY call it a choice.  I guess.  But by midway through 7th, I simply couldn't leave home without a Stormsurge and that was kind of sad to me.  When playing Sisters of Battle, I just loaded up on the tank killers in various forms and some Heavy Flamers to the extent my non essential forces could afford it afterwards.  I mean...  Sure.  I could have faced your Knights with my Heavy Flamers and Penitent Engines.  Lol.  I did have that "choice" after all, am I right?

Also we're getting way far afield from 8th Edition.  My primary point and the one I don't want to get too distracted from is pretty much that the Power Levels are an easy ready made way to have a friendlier game if that's a goal for you.  Like Highlander tournaments, it is just another means to an end.

[Lyraeus]

I really need to get building with my models... I want to attend some games of 8th! Hmmmm I wonder if anyone will play 50 PL with me... 

[Lyraeus]

5 knights eh... 2500ish points with 8th edition, give or take... Hmmmm several Railsides (as seen in the Warhammer TV's Khrone vs Tau, those can ruin days) 

 

Actually, I would probably ruin a knights day with what I consider basic weapons now. Melta's are going to be huge. Otherwise, I think with the change in how damage works and the rise of high Damage weapons not to mention that Smite hurts vehicles, this will be fine. 

 

Huh, for every Knight someone takes I could get 2-3 Railsides hmmmm

[WestRider]

1 hour ago, Threejacks said:

 On the topic of Power levels,im noticing at least for the Space Wolves that adding a WG pack leader(non terminator armor) using matched play points doesnt cost anymore,,yet in the power level system it does add one.Seems a bit odd...

I was just putting together a SW list and noticed that. I'm pretty sure he just costs the same as a regular Grey Hunter/Blood Claw. Note that the Unit Sizes in the Points section go from 5-11/5-16 respectively, while the Datasheets put them at 5-10/15+potential Pack Leader. Which is a bit frustrating, because now we're back to 5th Ed "can't take 2 Specials and a Combi in a Squad that fits in a Transport". But on the other hand, I can pull out all my Wolf Standards again, since they can now go in any GH Pack, not just 1.

[PourSpelur]

Just played my first game of eighth. (More of a demo than full game)

Holy cow, it's slick! Really liked the changes. Vehicles are less binary in the "invulnerable death dealer / one-shot and sploded" matrix. I actually liked the set values which, to be honest, I expected to hate. Melee is a different beast, much streamlined but deep in tactical choice.

So far, I give it an 8.5/10

Fun stuff!

[WestRider]

20 minutes ago, PourSpelur said:

Just played my first game of eighth. (More of a demo than full game)

Holy cow, it's slick! Really liked the changes. Vehicles are less binary in the "invulnerable death dealer / one-shot and sploded" matrix. I actually liked the set values which, to be honest, I expected to hate. Melee is a different beast, much streamlined but deep in tactical choice.

So far, I give it an 8.5/10

Fun stuff!

I thought we weren't going to get 8.5 for like another year or so, when they did the update? ;)

[Swan-of-War]

Dumb Overwatch question -

Overwatch is treated like a normal shot prior to the Charge move being rolled.  If the Charger starts the charge out of the Defender's gun's range, do they get the Overwatch shot?  i.e. a Charger is 10" away from someone with a Flamer.  

Personally, I'd let the Defender still fire if I were the Charger, but still worth asking. 

 

[Threejacks]

1 hour ago, Swan-of-War said:

Dumb Overwatch question -

Overwatch is treated like a normal shot prior to the Charge move being rolled.  If the Charger starts the charge out of the Defender's gun's range, do they get the Overwatch shot?  i.e. a Charger is 10" away from someone with a Flamer.  

Personally, I'd let the Defender still fire if I were the Charger, but still worth asking. 

 

 Overwatch follows all the normal rules of shooting except that you always need a 6(unless otherwise noted on the shooters dataslate).So out of range is out of range.

I see you noted flamers:)

 

 

[Munkie]

Nope, charging from out of a weapon's range will be a great way to avoid overwatch. 

It's generous to want to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt, but that's not how it works on 8th.