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1 hour ago, Munkie said:

Nope, charging from out of a weapon's range will be a great way to avoid overwatch. 

It's generous to want to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt, but that's not how it works on 8th.

I don't think that is correct. The Warhammer TV games being played on Twitch don't seem to follow that interpretation. It seems like you just get to fire all of your weapons regardless of range.

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10 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Using Power in the way I describe is one more tool in the toolbox for that purpose.  Sure, someone miiiiight want to start with Imperial Knights.  They might.  Most don't.  Thats the reality.  And the majority will enjoy the break from soul crushing first turn losses.  

Again, what do you think the functional difference between power level and points is?  

Again, large models/units have never been the primary driver of first turn losses, 40k is generally dominated by MSU especially when it comes to shooting.  Again, in a game where you activate 100% of your forces, it matters not how they are divided up.  What makes first turn losses happen is the way turns work, not Big Units.  

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1 hour ago, Sugarlessllama said:

I don't think that is correct. The Warhammer TV games being played on Twitch don't seem to follow that interpretation. It seems like you just get to fire all of your weapons regardless of range.

7 th said resolve shots out of range as if at max range... I'm thinking mistake and using artifact of old rules. 

 

Edit: okay child no longer in lap can type. Frontline specifically stated that charging from beyond flamer range was smart to avoid over watch. In this edition you get unlimited overwatch and backing up is a thing so I'd personally go with petre.

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2 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

7 th said resolve shots out of range as if at max range... I'm thinking mistake and using artifact of old rules. 

 

Edit: okay child no longer in lap can type. Frontline specifically stated that charging from beyond flamer range was smart to avoid over watch. In this edition you get unlimited overwatch and backing up is a thing so I'd personally go with petre.

Warhammer TV had a Tau vs Khrone game with 3 Crisis Suits team with 2 Flamers a pop that got charged twice at 8.5" and could not Overwatch. 

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2 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

7 th said resolve shots out of range as if at max range... I'm thinking mistake and using artifact of old rules. 

 

Edit: okay child no longer in lap can type. Frontline specifically stated that charging from beyond flamer range was smart to avoid over watch. In this edition you get unlimited overwatch and backing up is a thing so I'd personally go with petre.

From a game mechanics perspective, I like the balance between risk/reward. Ensure getting the charge but risk overwatch? Or risk failing the charge to avoid overwatch? Cool decision.

From a theme perspective, it makes absolutely no sense. An enemy charging across a longer distance is less likely to get shot while they run in?

Still, it is what it is, and at least it'll work well mechanically. I just like it when mechanics and theme play nice together.

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13 minutes ago, fluger said:

Question that came up last night, is there no cover save for being obscured any more?  I couldn't find it.  

Correct there is no cover if you arent wholly in the terrain feature you are claiming cover for. In certain cases if you arent infantry you need additional things such as obscurity

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4 hours ago, fluger said:

Again, what do you think the functional difference between power level and points is?  

Again, large models/units have never been the primary driver of first turn losses, 40k is generally dominated by MSU especially when it comes to shooting.  Again, in a game where you activate 100% of your forces, it matters not how they are divided up.  What makes first turn losses happen is the way turns work, not Big Units.  

With power levels don't certain units get tons of wargear for free? So if someone doesn't have a unit modeled with the most expensive loadout (or isn't playing against someone who will allow them to proxy the model as if it were), then they're basically handicapping themselves? As far as I can tell, that's the biggest difference between the two.

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1 hour ago, JMGraham said:

From a game mechanics perspective, I like the balance between risk/reward. Ensure getting the charge but risk overwatch? Or risk failing the charge to avoid overwatch? Cool decision.

From a theme perspective, it makes absolutely no sense. An enemy charging across a longer distance is less likely to get shot while they run in?

Still, it is what it is, and at least it'll work well mechanically. I just like it when mechanics and theme play nice together.

I completely agree flamers are the big losers here which feels wrong as they could totally just unload at any point and hit the dudes. 

 

I personally like to think of the long charges as unexpected. The charged unit was focused else where as they will have time to respond to that threat in a second. Mechanically shooting is so powerful you have to throw assault a bone here and there...

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46 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

With power levels don't certain units get tons of wargear for free? So if someone doesn't have a unit modeled with the most expensive loadout (or isn't playing against someone who will allow them to proxy the model as if it were), then they're basically handicapping themselves? As far as I can tell, that's the biggest difference between the two.

The Power Levels assume that you're putting on a fair amount of gear, yes. That said, there's not as many super expensive upgrades as previously, and most of the Weapons and such that are really expensive are ones that are more or less standard, so they're easily accounted for in the PL. It really does come out quite close to 20 Points per PL in all the Lists I've written up, regardless of whether I started from Points or PL.

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2 minutes ago, WestRider said:

The Power Levels assume that you're putting on a fair amount of gear, yes. That said, there's not as many super expensive upgrades as previously, and most of the Weapons and such that are really expensive are ones that are more or less standard, so they're easily accounted for in the PL. It really does come out quite close to 20 Points per PL in all the Lists I've written up, regardless of whether I started from Points or PL.

But with certain units - take 5 terminators, or wolf guard, or acolytes for example - the difference can be extreme. 

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13 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

But with certain units - take 5 terminators, or wolf guard, or acolytes for example - the difference can be extreme. 

My assumption is you will still have to have a conversation with your opponents regarding what kind of game you'd like to play.  If your buddy always brings a capped out PL list, he should probably be forced to play by points, or just go back to not having friends to play with.

 

Damn you GW, still expecting us to be adults!

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7 minutes ago, Rhuntar said:

My assumption is you will still have to have a conversation with your opponents regarding what kind of game you'd like to play.  If your buddy always brings a capped out PL list, he should probably be forced to play by points, or just go back to not having friends to play with.

 

Damn you GW, still expecting us to be adults!

Imo I'd rather avoid the conversation and just play points.

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1 hour ago, Dusldorf said:

With power levels don't certain units get tons of wargear for free? So if someone doesn't have a unit modeled with the most expensive loadout (or isn't playing against someone who will allow them to proxy the model as if it were), then they're basically handicapping themselves? As far as I can tell, that's the biggest difference between the two.

Agreed.  I found the power level of my Ork lists to be over the expected amount in points because I eschewed a lot of options, while my IG list was right on point.  I was more commenting on LH's apparent belief that power level equates to friendliness...

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37 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

But with certain units - take 5 terminators, or wolf guard, or acolytes for example - the difference can be extreme. 

Not really. Terminator Squads max out at about 22 Points per PL. Wolf Guard Terminators are the most extreme ratio I've found in a Marine Army, and they're still less than 27 PpPL, even with the most expensive loadout I could think of (Thunder Hammers/Combi-Meltas, plus a Cyclone). Which doesn't actually seem like a great one to me. Give them a more standard TH/SS loadout, and they're at 22PpPL as well.

Acolytes can get ludicrous, but theyre still incredibly fragile whether they're 8 Points or 52.

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15 minutes ago, WestRider said:

Not really. Terminator Squads max out at about 22 Points per PL. Wolf Guard Terminators are the most extreme ratio I've found in a Marine Army, and they're still less than 27 PpPL, even with the most expensive loadout I could think of (Thunder Hammers/Combi-Meltas, plus a Cyclone). Which doesn't actually seem like a great one to me. Give them a more standard TH/SS loadout, and they're at 22PpPL as well.

Acolytes can get ludicrous, but theyre still incredibly fragile whether they're 8 Points or 52.

Regardless of degree, power levels introduce more variance. For me, that's the only reason I need to avoid them. Because when I play 40k I want to analyze the game afterwards and think about how I could have done better. If we're using power levels, then one of the explanations could always be that my opponent or I had a latent points advantage. I don't want that to be a reasonable argument. Ever. 

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