New 40k edition

[Threejacks]

2 hours ago, fluger said:

Question that came up last night, is there no cover save for being obscured any more?  I couldn't find it.  

  You will see that the Terrain Dataslates DO have obscuring rules,,mainly for larger models including vehicles.Even then its the 50% or more rule or along those lines.

 

[Skkipper]

Has the rules been spotted for the firestorm redoubt and other fortifications?

 

[WestRider]

59 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

Regardless of degree, power levels introduce more variance. For me, that's the only reason I need to avoid them. Because when I play 40k I want to analyze the game afterwards and think about how I could have done better. If we're using power levels, then one of the explanations could always be that my opponent or I had a latent points advantage. I don't want that to be a reasonable argument. Ever. 

1) OK, yeah, that kind of Game isn't what Power Levels are for. That's playing in a competitive mindset, constantly looking to improve. Which isn't bad, by any means, but absolutely that's the setting for Matched Play Points. Power Levels are for the times when we just want to throw some dice around and blow stuff up. Casual pickup games, narrative play, introductory Games, stuff like that.

2) That's also making the assumption that everything is actually properly priced in the Matched Play Points, in all possible combinations. Even at a glance, 8th is way better in this regard than previously, but in 7th, that has definitely not been a sound assumption. If I run my Nids against someone else's Eldar in 7th, I'm getting destroyed, regardless of whether or not the Points say it's an even match.

That said, I'm pretty confident that if anyone's gaming the Power Level system to such an extent that it's more of an issue than the simple fact that it's impossible to get a truly balanced Points System for Game this complex, it's going to be blatantly obvious. If someone shows up with 80 Acolytes with Thunder Hammers and Combi-Meltas, yeah, I'm going to ask to go with Matched Play Points. If it looks even remotely like a "standard" 40K Army, tho, I'm more than happy to just roll with it, because it's unlikely to be a significant difference.

[WestRider]

25 minutes ago, Skkipper said:

Has the rules been spotted for the firestorm redoubt and other fortifications?

 

Most, if not all, of them are in Index: Imperium 2. Index Chaos has just the Bastion, for some reason (which is also in II2), and the T'au-specific ones are in their Index: Xenos 2 with the rest of their stuff.

[Dusldorf]

29 minutes ago, WestRider said:

1) OK, yeah, that kind of Game isn't what Power Levels are for. That's playing in a competitive mindset, constantly looking to improve. Which isn't bad, by any means, but absolutely that's the setting for Matched Play Points. Power Levels are for the times when we just want to throw some dice around and blow stuff up. Casual pickup games, narrative play, introductory Games, stuff like that.

2) That's also making the assumption that everything is actually properly priced in the Matched Play Points, in all possible combinations. Even at a glance, 8th is way better in this regard than previously, but in 7th, that has definitely not been a sound assumption. If I run my Nids against someone else's Eldar in 7th, I'm getting destroyed, regardless of whether or not the Points say it's an even match.

That said, I'm pretty confident that if anyone's gaming the Power Level system to such an extent that it's more of an issue than the simple fact that it's impossible to get a truly balanced Points System for Game this complex, it's going to be blatantly obvious. If someone shows up with 80 Acolytes with Thunder Hammers and Combi-Meltas, yeah, I'm going to ask to go with Matched Play Points. If it looks even remotely like a "standard" 40K Army, tho, I'm more than happy to just roll with it, because it's unlikely to be a significant difference.

I'm not against other people choosing to play with power levels, but I think it's wrong to assume that people looking for casual, narrative, or introductory games aren't looking to improve or care about the result of the game. Everybody cares at some level and wants to do better next time. If they don't want to go through the few extra minutes it takes to make a list with points, that doesn't tell me they aren't competitive at some level and care about winning. It just tells me they don't want to spend the time. Which could be because they're in a hurry, or want an excuse if they happen to lose, or they're lazy, or any number of other reasons.

I'm not at all assuming the points are balanced. All I'm saying is that power levels introduce more variance than is already present elsewhere in the game - due to points, or codices, or whether a player went first or second, or stole the initiative, etc. - and I think that's unnecessary and undesirable.

Your last example misses the point. I'm taking issue with the fact that it's impossible to tell whether a points discrepancy due to power levels is significant or not. I don't like that. In light of that uncertainty, I want to err on the side of caution and assume that there is a difference, whereas it seems like you'd prefer to err on the side of ignoring it completely.

[WestRider]

I kind of feel like we have very different definitions of some basic terms here, and are sort of talking past each other. I'm going to leave it at this: GW has given us multiple tools. We get to choose the ones we like. No one is forcing the whole community into one mode or another.

[InfestedKerrigan]

6 minutes ago, WestRider said:

No one is forcing the whole community into one mode or another.

Let us agree to disagree. ;)

[InfestedKerrigan]

Nothing more about hover tank, super dread, or release dates of Primaris boxes?

[Dusldorf]

1 hour ago, WestRider said:

I kind of feel like we have very different definitions of some basic terms here, and are sort of talking past each other. I'm going to leave it at this: GW has given us multiple tools. We get to choose the ones we like. No one is forcing the whole community into one mode or another.

Of course nobody's forcing the community. We were just discussing the reasons for our respective choices. If you don't want to go into the terms, so be it. Happy gaming :)

[WestRider]

It's not even that I don't want to go into the terms. I just can't think of any other ways to explain my point of view, and I think I get yours, but I don't agree with it, but can't words right to express exactly how :P

Maybe I used up all my arguin' 25 pages back or so ;)

[Munkie]

Given how limited power level is as a long-term structure for experienced players, is anyone else kind of annoyed that power level is given the dominant position in the indexes?

I absolutely see the value for new players, extremely infrequent casual players, and maybe even jaded veterans thinking "how 'bout we try..."

But it wouldn't be hard at all to include points on the data slate as well.  Just add an extra column on the weapon profiles with the points. Add the points per model in the massive black headers. Why refer someone to a different pushes, when you've got page space enough as is?

I've already started a notebook of units actual cost, given that some stock equipment costs 0 because it's built in to the cost, while strictly inferior options cost some. Then you've got cheaper than stock options which is super weird as a concept. Less than stock car racing? How's your life insurance?

It won't be that bad once I've actually got the index in hand, but deciphering new rules from snap shots on adobe on a 4" screen. But it's not very intuitive. 

[Lyraeus]

12 hours ago, Dusldorf said:

With power levels don't certain units get tons of wargear for free? So if someone doesn't have a unit modeled with the most expensive loadout (or isn't playing against someone who will allow them to proxy the model as if it were), then they're basically handicapping themselves? As far as I can tell, that's the biggest difference between the two.

The most is maybe a Stormsurge or Ghostkneel getting a shield and target lock  as those are like 40 points or so each. Other than that, it comes down to weapons 

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, Munkie said:

Given how limited power level is as a long-term structure for experienced players, is anyone else kind of annoyed that power level is given the dominant position in the indexes?

I absolutely see the value for new players, extremely infrequent casual players, and maybe even jaded veterans thinking "how 'bout we try..."

But it wouldn't be hard at all to include points on the data slate as well.  Just add an extra column on the weapon profiles with the points. Add the points per model in the massive black headers. Why refer someone to a different pushes, when you've got page space enough as is?

I've already started a notebook of units actual cost, given that some stock equipment costs 0 because it's built in to the cost, while strictly inferior options cost some. Then you've got cheaper than stock options which is super weird as a concept. Less than stock car racing? How's your life insurance?

It won't be that bad once I've actually got the index in hand, but deciphering new rules from snap shots on adobe on a 4" screen. But it's not very intuitive. 

Portland Game Store has each index to look at. 

 

As for points not in the data sheet, it is set that way so you. Have a one stop shop for model points, weapon points, and weapon profiles. It also lets them do corrections in a single place for points 

[Munkie]

4 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Portland Game Store has each index to look at. 

 

As for points not in the data sheet, it is set that way so you. Have a one stop shop for model points, weapon points, and weapon profiles. It also lets them do corrections in a single place for points 

I'm up in Bellingham, WA so no indexes for me. Yet. 

It isn't a one stop shop though. Or rather, I guess it kinda is, but if instead of writing your grocery list on a piece of paper and taking it with you, you wrote it on the wall at home. Anytime you've got a question about what's stock on the unit, or what options you've got to upgrade (or downgrade) with, you have to leave the one stop shop to check it. 

When I get my index, it'll be marked up heavily. 

[Threejacks]

Sheese,,GW cant win..

 AoS releases with no point system..gets slammed

  nu40k releases with TOO MANY point systems--gets slammed!

 

 j/k

  Power level will most certainly be for new players or those just wanting to throw down a quick match at home.

 Though as ive mentioned,If I could get a few interested I wouldnt mind putting together an event that used powerlevels and battlezone rules.Something to change it up a bit:)

 

[Sugarlessllama]

I'm really happy with the power level system. I have always hated sitting down with a calculator and pricing out each doodad in my army. :D

[Dusldorf]

7 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

The most is maybe a Stormsurge or Ghostkneel getting a shield and target lock  as those are like 40 points or so each. Other than that, it comes down to weapons 

Wargear is anything not included with the base model cost, doesn't matter if it's  a weapon. Also to find the biggest offenders you have to look at wargear costs relative to model costs, not absolute cost of wargear like you did there.

[pretre]

Reece joins us today to talk about the newest splinter faction of the Aeldari, the Ynnari.|

 

Reece helps runs some of the biggest independent Warhammer 40,000 events in the world, including the Las Vegas Open and the recently announced Southern California Open. Like Frankie, he’s also been part of the playtest team for the new edition of Warhammer 40,000, putting in hundreds of hours to make sure this new edition will be great for all you gamers out there (thanks Reece!).

The Ynnari represent hope for the Aeldari. By harnessing the power of death, they have brought a renewed sense of purpose to their dying race. But how will they fare in the new Warhammer 40,000?

Previously, Ynnari created quite a splash in the Warhammer 40,000 world for their incredible ability to enable units to act multiple times in the same turn. Wraithknights doing anything twice was incredibly potent. When backed by the rest of the hyper points-efficient Aeldari faction, you had a powerful combination.

In new Warhammer 40,000 Ynnari are still a force to be reckoned with but have had some sensible limitations placed on them. Their signature ability, Strength from Death, now only works on Infantry, Bikers and the Yncarne (sorry Mr. Wraithknight). What it does allow you to do, though, is incredible. Each time a unit is completely destroyed within 7” of one or more units with this ability – except in the Morale phase – pick one of those units to make a Soulburst action. These allow you to move, cast a psychic power, shoot, charge or fight. Pretty spectacular.

They also allow you to form an army from multiple Aeldari sub-factions and use the Ynnari keyword instead. Only the Haemonculus Covens are excluded from joining the Ynnari. Lastly, Ynnari characters can ride in other Aeldari transports – which is quite good, as they all have access to some excellent methods of transportation.

The ability to pick such a wide variety of units is the real strength of this faction. You can make a lore-accurate army, for example, comprised of Fire Dragons, Incubi, and Harlequins. This immense flexibility gives you all of the tools you need to build a well rounded and deadly force.

One of my favourite combos is to use the Word of the Phoenix psychic power on a unit that has already moved to let it Soulburst and move again to get in position to either shoot or charge. With the speed of most Aeldari units, this gives a massive threat bubble. If you position a supporting unit well, if the first unit destroys their target, the support unit can then soulburst, too. This cascading effect can create utterly lethal combinations.

Ynnari will be a popular flavour of Aeldari in new Warhammer 40,000 and continue to provide incredible force multiplication capabilities.

[fluger]

10 hours ago, Munkie said:

Given how limited power level is as a long-term structure for experienced players, is anyone else kind of annoyed that power level is given the dominant position in the indexes?

I absolutely see the value for new players, extremely infrequent casual players, and maybe even jaded veterans thinking "how 'bout we try..."

But it wouldn't be hard at all to include points on the data slate as well.  Just add an extra column on the weapon profiles with the points. Add the points per model in the massive black headers. Why refer someone to a different pushes, when you've got page space enough as is?

I've already started a notebook of units actual cost, given that some stock equipment costs 0 because it's built in to the cost, while strictly inferior options cost some. Then you've got cheaper than stock options which is super weird as a concept. Less than stock car racing? How's your life insurance?

It won't be that bad once I've actually got the index in hand, but deciphering new rules from snap shots on adobe on a 4" screen. But it's not very intuitive. 

I made a google sheets list for my armies.

Honestly though, the stated reason for points being the way they are is that they are easier to change per the stated plan of doing yearly points adjustments.  

[scotthartman]

I'm totally fine using power levels rather than points. I think its just a quick way of saying 2000pts without carrying too much about the gritty details of per model costs. I remember making army lists and really thinking way too much about how to spend points and kit out each model. In the end it doesn't matter that much as long as the game is roughly even, 50-100 points difference doesn't swing a game either way. Heck, I can even remember games when I forgot half of the wargear that I bought and never used it.

Points are so ingrained to how wargamers think though, its hard to get out of that frame of mind. Which I can only assume is why they included both points and power levels. I'll be trying to make my army the same for both so that I can just play more and worry about nitty gritty details less.

[WestRider]

Got my first game in today. PL100, my CSM vs. Nato Sicarius's Necrons. It was the most fun I've had playing 40K in months. Leaving aside one Game back in February, the most fun I've had playing 40K since last OFCC. The game took about as long as a game of similar size in the same circumstances would have taken us in 7th, but this was our very first game with this rules set, vs. a couple of years' experience with 7th.

I boxed my Land Raider in and wasted way too many Lascannon shots on his Ghost Arks (Quantum Shielding is amazing. Makes a huge difference in how you want to take those Vehicles down. Great Rule.), plus ran my Bikes out too far unsupported, so I got kind of picked apart, and he had the board solidly locked down at the end of the Game. But I never felt like I was outclassed by his List the way I often have in 6th-7th.I made some screwups, and I had an inefficient list because there were so many things I wanted to try out. But still. I took a list with a Squad of Chaos Terminators in a Land Raider, a Sorcerer on foot, and a Terminator Chaos Lord, and did alright with it when I didn't make mistakes. I can't remember the last time I could say that.

[PourSpelur]

So on deployment, does it go:

I place Rhino, you place something, I "deploy" a Tac squad into Rhino, you place something etc...

Or

I place Rhino with Tac squad inside, you place something etc...

[VonVilkee]

Second option is what I've seen on frontline gaming and they did play testing... since multiple units can be in the same transport they were talking about all characters deploy in a transport to cut down on deployments and be more likely to go first...

[Threejacks]

1 hour ago, PourSpelur said:

So on deployment, does it go:

I place Rhino, you place something, I "deploy" a Tac squad into Rhino, you place something etc...

Or

I place Rhino with Tac squad inside, you place something etc...

Yup,,units loaded into transports all count as one drop.So 10 leaders all loaded into one Rhino is one drop.Finish deploying first and go first(assuming its not stolen from you)..this will become more of a big deal as the meta forms.

 Wouldnt be surprised if we start seeing army specific formations with the ability to all drop at once on deployement.

 

[Lyraeus]

2 hours ago, Threejacks said:

Yup,,units loaded into transports all count as one drop.So 10 leaders all loaded into one Rhino is one drop.Finish deploying first and go first(assuming its not stolen from you)..this will become more of a big deal as the meta forms.

 Wouldnt be surprised if we start seeing army specific formations with the ability to all drop at once on deployement.

 

Great I formation to know!