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4 hours ago, happycamper said:

I think they are amazing so ?

They are amazing, just not in the rules department. :tongue:.

Look, I already know the whole meta shifts due to the new edition. I FRIGGIN GET THAT. However I have been watching very keenly on the various armies and have noticed that a lot of armies had received compensation for removal of old traits. My whole point though is that BA were specifically short changed on that aspect and received a pretty mediocre compensation mechanism. We were never top tier through 6th and 7th edition. Far from it as BA were considered basically only a bit better than Orks, Nids and Dark Eldar. So instead of buffing us a bit, they nerf us even more? That's just not fair at all.

I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition. All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch. Why am I sinking points into a priest, a chaplain and a librarian just to get a single unit to have a good chance at killing anything? Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition? Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?) Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air?

On the flip side, I think Sanguinary guard are about where they need to be. That was a single example of something good they did. The only negative is that they have only a very narrow window of effectiveness: Too pricey for horde clearing and too squishy for hunting MC equivalent. I think they are probably going to be terminator hunters and lower wound characters. If you do throw them at multi-woulds, you absolutely have to get the charge in as it is a bit too easy to circumvent a 2+ save (intentional, I know) nowadays. I definitely see sticking a libby in there or having them spear head an assault with a Libby dread in tow for a nice 4+ Inv save.

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5 hours ago, spagunk said:

They are amazing, just not in the rules department. :tongue:.

Look, I already know the whole meta shifts due to the new edition. I FRIGGIN GET THAT. However I have been watching very keenly on the various armies and have noticed that a lot of armies had received compensation for removal of old traits. My whole point though is that BA were specifically short changed on that aspect and received a pretty mediocre compensation mechanism. We were never top tier through 6th and 7th edition. Far from it as BA were considered basically only a bit better than Orks, Nids and Dark Eldar. So instead of buffing us a bit, they nerf us even more? That's just not fair at all.

I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition. All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch. Why am I sinking points into a priest, a chaplain and a librarian just to get a single unit to have a good chance at killing anything? Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition? Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?) Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air?

On the flip side, I think Sanguinary guard are about where they need to be. That was a single example of something good they did. The only negative is that they have only a very narrow window of effectiveness: Too pricey for horde clearing and too squishy for hunting MC equivalent. I think they are probably going to be terminator hunters and lower wound characters. If you do throw them at multi-woulds, you absolutely have to get the charge in as it is a bit too easy to circumvent a 2+ save (intentional, I know) nowadays. I definitely see sticking a libby in there or having them spear head an assault with a Libby dread in tow for a nice 4+ Inv save.

 Well, I am sorry that you feel so "meh" about Blood Angels. But you say that the stats prove otherwise, and I wonder what it is you are looking at. I look at them and I see a powerhouse faction on the table. Here is why:

  1. This edition is very, very different than every other edition you have played. Which means that everything that can before you have to forget. I am not being facetious here. You really have to view this edition of the game in a vacuum. This IS NOT a meta shift. A new codex is a meta shift. A new FAQ is a meta shift. A new faction is a meta shift. The entire game got reset. And it is a hard reset.
  2. "Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air?" You aren't. You are thinking "How can I shoot planes down". First, everything can shoot at planes now. Most units just have a -1 to hit rolls for doing so. But guess what! Anything with FLY as a keyword can Charge fliers and lock them in combat. Yeah. You can lock fliers in combat. And you know what has the FLY keyword? Jump Packs. What faction has jump packs on everything? Blood Angels. So now DC can charge Helldrakes. Yeah.
  3. "Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?)" Well he has Chapter Master which gives re-rolls to hit for all BA models within "6. That is a big buff. He has a Death Mask which is -1 to Leadership to all enemy models within 3", which is effectively adding an additional casualty to all enemy units every morale phase. That is huge. And his weapons are pretty strong. So, he is still awesome. As for Strategic Genius, this did what? Granted an additional warlord trait? Which was kind of a double re-roll on the traits table? Well, as for warlord traits, you can just pick the one you want. It isn't random anymore. Just pick it.
  4. "All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch." So, in this edition of the game Charging does not grant an additional attack. Except for DC. They come stock with Chainswords, which grants an additional attack. Additional attacks are pretty rare niche in this edition. And DC get two of them stock. That is huge.
  5. "Why am I sinking points into a priest,...." Every Space Marine faction gets an apothecary that heals wounds. The Blood Angel variety, does that AND increases strength. Not +1 strength, but Increases. That means it is added BEFORE multipliers. So a DC with a TH hits at strength 10, not 9. And given the simplified wounding system that is HUGE! For example. Old DC w/ TH using the new wound chart, wound Plague Marines on 3 (S9 v T5. S9 is not double T5, and so they wound on 3.) But now with the Sang Priest they wound on 2 (S10 v T5 = 2xT -> 2 to wound).
  6. In 7th Edition DC charging a Blood Thirster would have a hard time. First, since the Blood Thirster has WS 10, the DC would be hitting on 5s. Under the new system they hit on 3s. Under the old system, the Blood Thirster would go first, even if the DC charged. In the new system, the DC go first. And they are hitting hard.
  7. " Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? " The Baal Predator has three weapon systems (before upgrades) and can shoot at three different things. And it can shoot and advance.
  8. " Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition?" Deathstars are things like Tau-dar, or Super-Friends where you had a Frankenarmy of four different factions across five different supplements slapped together to make something unfun. You are describing a Blood Angels army fielding Death Company, A Sanguinary Priest, Astorath, and Dante. All of them are BA characters. And they were all in use before.
  9. "I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition" So, to mention their virtues again: They can deepstrike without reserve rolls or scatter, and they can charge out of deepstrike. They get an axtra attack when they charge (which is rare) They come stock with pistols and chainswords (chainswords also grant an additional attack). This means that when they charge out of deepstrike, they can get like 4 attacks each. And then, when they are locked in combat they can shoot their pistols, and then swing with their chainswords for 3 attacks each (4 if you include the pistol shots). And they have a Super Feel No Pain. And not only is this FnP very rare in this new version of the game, but it is better because you always get it (regardless of the strength of the attack), and you also get it against Mortal Wounds (and Mortal Wounds usually bypass ALL saves.). And all of this is before you add in auras from supporting characters.  In other words, they have a really good chance of killing stuff without any additional support.

Brosef, I don't know what it is you want. Like I said, I see these rules, and I look over the new game mechanics, and I say "wow, Blood Angels are really strong". I don't know what it is you are seeing. I don't know how many games of 8th edition you have played. Maybe you have played 100 games of the new edition, and you used DC every single time and they get evaporated. And if so, I'm sorry.

However, I am going to go on a limb that you haven't played that many matches of the new edition, if any. I am going to say to you this: try your Blood Angels out using the new rules before you wallow in your sea of disappointment. Seriously. I'm going to guess that it is going to take like 10 or 15 matches with the new rules fore you can say definitively that they have been "nerfed" or "hosed".

I say this because it was a long time of using my Dwarfs in Age of Sigmar before I figured out "whoa, they are pretty strong". Until that time, I was a sad panda. So please, just slow your roll brochacho. Don't set yourself up with a self-fulfilling prophecy of sadness.

Or do.

It's your choice dude.

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11 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

I wonder if ITC will allow double fortification detachments... 6 fortifications and a battalion to man them sounds like an iron warriors list to me...

Here is hoping the ITC plays straight rulebook rules until after Vegas. We need to see where we stand before we bring out the ban hammer.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Sugarlessllama said:

 Well, I am sorry that you feel so "meh" about Blood Angels. But you say that the stats prove otherwise, and I wonder what it is you are looking at. I look at them and I see a powerhouse faction on the table. Here is why:

  1. This edition is very, very different than every other edition you have played. Which means that everything that can before you have to forget. I am not being facetious here. You really have to view this edition of the game in a vacuum. This IS NOT a meta shift. A new codex is a meta shift. A new FAQ is a meta shift. A new faction is a meta shift. The entire game got reset. And it is a hard reset.
  2. "Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air?" You aren't. You are thinking "How can I shoot planes down". First, everything can shoot at planes now. Most units just have a -1 to hit rolls for doing so. But guess what! Anything with FLY as a keyword can Charge fliers and lock them in combat. Yeah. You can lock fliers in combat. And you know what has the FLY keyword? Jump Packs. What faction has jump packs on everything? Blood Angels. So now DC can charge Helldrakes. Yeah.
  3. "Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?)" Well he has Chapter Master which gives re-rolls to hit for all BA models within "6. That is a big buff. He has a Death Mask which is -1 to Leadership to all enemy models within 3", which is effectively adding an additional casualty to all enemy units every morale phase. That is huge. And his weapons are pretty strong. So, he is still awesome. As for Strategic Genius, this did what? Granted an additional warlord trait? Which was kind of a double re-roll on the traits table? Well, as for warlord traits, you can just pick the one you want. It isn't random anymore. Just pick it.
  4. "All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch." So, in this edition of the game Charging does not grant an additional attack. Except for DC. They come stock with Chainswords, which grants an additional attack. Additional attacks are pretty rare niche in this edition. And DC get two of them stock. That is huge.
  5. "Why am I sinking points into a priest,...." Every Space Marine faction gets an apothecary that heals wounds. The Blood Angel variety, does that AND increases strength. Not +1 strength, but Increases. That means it is added BEFORE multipliers. So a DC with a TH hits at strength 10, not 9. And given the simplified wounding system that is HUGE! For example. Old DC w/ TH using the new wound chart, wound Plague Marines on 3 (S9 v T5. S9 is not double T5, and so they wound on 3.) But now with the Sang Priest they wound on 2 (S10 v T5 = 2xT -> 2 to wound).
  6. In 7th Edition DC charging a Blood Thirster would have a hard time. First, since the Blood Thirster has WS 10, the DC would be hitting on 5s. Under the new system they hit on 3s. Under the old system, the Blood Thirster would go first, even if the DC charged. In the new system, the DC go first. And they are hitting hard.
  7. " Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? " The Baal Predator has three weapon systems (before upgrades) and can shoot at three different things. And it can shoot and advance.
  8. " Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition?" Deathstars are things like Tau-dar, or Super-Friends where you had a Frankenarmy of four different factions across five different supplements slapped together to make something unfun. You are describing a Blood Angels army fielding Death Company, A Sanguinary Priest, Astorath, and Dante. All of them are BA characters. And they were all in use before.
  9. "I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition" So, to mention their virtues again: They can deepstrike without reserve rolls or scatter, and they can charge out of deepstrike. They get an axtra attack when they charge (which is rare) They come stock with pistols and chainswords (chainswords also grant an additional attack). This means that when they charge out of deepstrike, they can get like 4 attacks each. And then, when they are locked in combat they can shoot their pistols, and then swing with their chainswords for 3 attacks each (4 if you include the pistol shots). And they have a Super Feel No Pain. And not only is this FnP very rare in this new version of the game, but it is better because you always get it (regardless of the strength of the attack), and you also get it against Mortal Wounds (and Mortal Wounds usually bypass ALL saves.). And all of this is before you add in auras from supporting characters.  In other words, they have a really good chance of killing stuff without any additional support.

Brosef, I don't know what it is you want. Like I said, I see these rules, and I look over the new game mechanics, and I say "wow, Blood Angels are really strong". I don't know what it is you are seeing. I don't know how many games of 8th edition you have played. Maybe you have played 100 games of the new edition, and you used DC every single time and they get evaporated. And if so, I'm sorry.

However, I am going to go on a limb that you haven't played that many matches of the new edition, if any. I am going to say to you this: try your Blood Angels out using the new rules before you wallow in your sea of disappointment. Seriously. I'm going to guess that it is going to take like 10 or 15 matches with the new rules fore you can say definitively that they have been "nerfed" or "hosed".

I say this because it was a long time of using my Dwarfs in Age of Sigmar before I figured out "whoa, they are pretty strong". Until that time, I was a sad panda. So please, just slow your roll brochacho. Don't set yourself up with a self-fulfilling prophecy of sadness.

Or do.

It's your choice dude.

Preach brother!! Lol

in short, got to look at this edition in vacuum like llama said.  Comparing old stats when litterialy game rules have changed doesn't work.

Another thing to keep in mind as these aren't the final codexs for armies.  Things will get fleshed out more once they get their own codex. 

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45 minutes ago, Sugarlessllama said:

 Well, I am sorry that you feel so "meh" about Blood Angels. But you say that the stats prove otherwise, and I wonder what it is you are looking at. I look at them and I see a powerhouse faction on the table. Here is why:

  1. This edition is very, very different than every other edition you have played. Which means that everything that can before you have to forget. I am not being facetious here. You really have to view this edition of the game in a vacuum. This IS NOT a meta shift. A new codex is a meta shift. A new FAQ is a meta shift. A new faction is a meta shift. The entire game got reset. And it is a hard reset. A new edition PROMPTS a meta shift. Don't go trying to placate me on this one. People shift their strategy because a new edition hits. The new edition shifted the meta once the rules it to take advantage of what can and can't be done. THAT is a meta shift since some units are inherently built to take advantage of the rule set. Everyone received the hard reset, yes. But there are clear winners and losers and I say the BA are the losers.
  2. "Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air?" You aren't. You are thinking "How can I shoot planes down". First, everything can shoot at planes now. Most units just have a -1 to hit rolls for doing so. But guess what! Anything with FLY as a keyword can Charge fliers and lock them in combat. Yeah. You can lock fliers in combat. And you know what has the FLY keyword? Jump Packs. What faction has jump packs on everything? Blood Angels. So now DC can charge Helldrakes. Yeah. Except you have to weather both firepower (nothing new, but perhaps a bit deadlier this edition) then get your charge in. You technically CAN do this but it isn't exactly the easiest thing to do. PLUS flyers have a good deal amount of wounds too so you're definitely fighting against this. They had an opportunity to grant BA the ability to help against this with a dedicated AA unit and they opted not to. So we have to throw physical assault units instead? That's lazy and really not thought out. Skulls for the skull throne I guess?
  3. "Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?)" Well he has Chapter Master which gives re-rolls to hit for all BA models within "6. That is a big buff. He has a Death Mask which is -1 to Leadership to all enemy models within 3", which is effectively adding an additional casualty to all enemy units every morale phase. That is huge. And his weapons are pretty strong. So, he is still awesome. As for Strategic Genius, this did what? Granted an additional warlord trait? Which was kind of a double re-roll on the traits table? Well, as for warlord traits, you can just pick the one you want. It isn't random anymore. Just pick it. I can get a death mask on my SG (can't remember but sanguinor does to I think) so why use Dante? His trait in 7th was not a double re-roll but an additional warlord trait. THAT was pretty fantastic when playing with strategic cards. I can literally make a generic captain with a similar load out and not only save a few points but arguably be more effective.
  4. "All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch." So, in this edition of the game Charging does not grant an additional attack. Except for DC. They come stock with Chainswords, which grants an additional attack. Additional attacks are pretty rare niche in this edition. And DC get two of them stock. That is huge. Except you have to get rid of that to actually do force wounds on hordes or higher wound models. So ether you force hits (chainsword) or more importantly force wounds which is the biggest importance. Statistically Powerfists and Thunderhammers are the MOST effective weapon for DC PERIOD. So no bonus for chainswords there.
  5. "Why am I sinking points into a priest,...." Every Space Marine faction gets an apothecary that heals wounds. The Blood Angel variety, does that AND increases strength. Not +1 strength, but Increases. That means it is added BEFORE multipliers. So a DC with a TH hits at strength 10, not 9. And given the simplified wounding system that is HUGE! For example. Old DC w/ TH using the new wound chart, wound Plague Marines on 3 (S9 v T5. S9 is not double T5, and so they wound on 3.) But now with the Sang Priest they wound on 2 (S10 v T5 = 2xT -> 2 to wound). Not sure how to reply to this because i'm pretty certain you doe x2 strength before any bonuses which is the same as last edition. But whatever, I'll re-read how that goes.
  6. In 7th Edition DC charging a Blood Thirster would have a hard time. First, since the Blood Thirster has WS 10, the DC would be hitting on 5s. Under the new system they hit on 3s. Under the old system, the Blood Thirster would go first, even if the DC charged. In the new system, the DC go first. And they are hitting hard. Except I would never charge the blood thirster in either edition since there is no protection at all for them. You essentially feed bodies and give them blood tithes.
  7. " Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? " The Baal Predator has three weapon systems (before upgrades) and can shoot at three different things. And it can shoot and advance. Base cost of a ball pred for just 1 wound is still much higher than a razorback, not counting your sponson yo.
  8. " Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition?" Deathstars are things like Tau-dar, or Super-Friends where you had a Frankenarmy of four different factions across five different supplements slapped together to make something unfun. You are describing a Blood Angels army fielding Death Company, A Sanguinary Priest, Astorath, and Dante. All of them are BA characters. And they were all in use before. What you are referring to is called "Super friends", not deathstars. Deathstars are any stacking of characters to boost a unit to super high levels. So armies can stack deathstars while formations allowed super friends. All super friends are deathstars but not all deathstars are super friends.
  9. "I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition" So, to mention their virtues again: They can deepstrike without reserve rolls or scatter, and they can charge out of deepstrike. They get an axtra attack when they charge (which is rare) They come stock with pistols and chainswords (chainswords also grant an additional attack). This means that when they charge out of deepstrike, they can get like 4 attacks each. And then, when they are locked in combat they can shoot their pistols, and then swing with their chainswords for 3 attacks each (4 if you include the pistol shots). And they have a Super Feel No Pain. And not only is this FnP very rare in this new version of the game, but it is better because you always get it (regardless of the strength of the attack), and you also get it against Mortal Wounds (and Mortal Wounds usually bypass ALL saves.). And all of this is before you add in auras from supporting characters.  In other words, they have a really good chance of killing stuff without any additional support. I don't know about you but I can NEVER depend on hard 6's for anything. I think I managed to get maybe 10 total 6's in overwatch through all the games of 6th and 7th combined. So rolling hard 6's, anecdotally, just isn't really dependable. The fact that it saves against everything (except mortal wounds from what I remember) is just about the same except a much harder roll in my view. Considering there are units that can do nothing but mortal wounds, that doesn't seem like it is much different other than which units are going to be doing this to you.

Brosef, I don't know what it is you want. Like I said, I see these rules, and I look over the new game mechanics, and I say "wow, Blood Angels are really strong". I don't know what it is you are seeing. I don't know how many games of 8th edition you have played. Maybe you have played 100 games of the new edition, and you used DC every single time and they get evaporated. And if so, I'm sorry.

However, I am going to go on a limb that you haven't played that many matches of the new edition, if any. I am going to say to you this: try your Blood Angels out using the new rules before you wallow in your sea of disappointment. Seriously. I'm going to guess that it is going to take like 10 or 15 matches with the new rules fore you can say definitively that they have been "nerfed" or "hosed".

I say this because it was a long time of using my Dwarfs in Age of Sigmar before I figured out "whoa, they are pretty strong". Until that time, I was a sad panda. So please, just slow your roll brochacho. Don't set yourself up with a self-fulfilling prophecy of sadness.

Or do.

It's your choice dude. Yes, please do play the "You mad, bro?" style internet pass off. Definitely convinces me to your views on this. I am not your "bro" and I have valid concerns despite your implications that I am being a chicken little and that my concerns are unfounded. Hate to be that guy but "You don't know me" seems entirely appropriate given your summary.

I know my army. I know what I will be facing. I can see what is there and compare/contrast what I have access to. Every logical pointer I see shows that both the play testers and the people responsible for writing up the army had no idea what they were working with. I honestly believe whoever showcased BA during playtest doubled down on drop pod dreads and DC and stomped some poor Ork army in turn 2 which prompted a nerf to both units (BA dreads are actually less effective versus other dread types, look it up).

GW then decided on a somewhat random theme and went with it without regards to how the army is meant to be played. They essentially told us that BA are a gimmick army and doubled down on the gimmick. It is painfully obvious to me and many in the internet community who DID have the opportunity to play lots of games already. It is also obvious to people who math-hammered this to death even BEFORE normal schmucks like myself got their hands on this. It's not conjecture, it's fact at this point.

Responses in red.

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30 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Preach brother!! Lol

in short, got to look at this edition in vacuum like llama said.  Comparing old stats when litterialy game rules have changed doesn't work.

Another thing to keep in mind as these aren't the final codexs for armies.  Things will get fleshed out more once they get their own codex. 

HOLY SMOKES people. I'm absolutely NOT comparing old stats. I'm comparing current stats/abilities with stats and abilities of other ARMIES in 8th edition. Christ almighty.

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24 minutes ago, spagunk said:

Responses in red.

I am sorry that you feel like I am writing you off. That is not my intention. However, it is clear that we view the game very differently. I am a long time WFB player, and so I lived through the shift to AoS. To call the shift from WFB to AoS a "meta shift" would be incorrect. A whole new game was created, with very different core mechanics.

Almost the same thing has happened to 40K.

So for me, this isn't my first rodeo. And so for me, things are looking great. For you things are looking grim. And I don't know what to tell you. But last time this happened, I allowed the negativity of the community to get me down, before I even had a chance to put models on the table. And I refuse to allow it to happen to me again.

And so, we are at an impasse. And we will have to agree to disagree.

Have fun. :D

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First off I would like to say that I appreciate Sugarlesslamas comments on how he is resisting the negativity that is happening to 40k  based on his previous experience with the whfb to AoS changeover.

 

   I'm starting to see rather long threads on both FB and other forums about how the nu40k is bland and stripped of most all of its depth.The exact same thing was said about AoS during that transitions,as we all know.We can be asssured that this new version of the game is not going to be for everyone that has been playing the game in the most recent versions prior.Keep in mind though that the game engine transition/rebuild from whfb to AoS was far more drastic than what is happening to 40k right now so I ser iously doubt there will be some mass exodus from the game as a product like there was with whfb.

  Part of me is somewhat disappointed with some of the new changes,,even though I'm an avid AoSer and the game has fully been transitioned,I still miss things like vehicle facings.In exchange for the many simplifications,I think we will see the absence of hard counters as a whole along with the removal of many of the cheesy "super secret squirrel moves" that were often very annoying.Though in the long run,I wouldnt be surprised to see these things start creeping back both rulesets,,cuz money and all that.

 

    As for the future of this new rule set,,I firmly believe that they will be building it just as they have done with AoS,,that means new codecs with suf faction army special rules and abilities,,basically giving a reason to choose all those faction specific keywords over the base factions.Also points will be adjusted and rules tweaked on a much more consistent basis.So for those that don't mind a bit more random in their competitive play along with a more layer back approach overall,,the game is looking very bright:)

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Played a game of 40k 8th edition vs a new player and it was a BLAST! His list was an Aspect Warrior Eldar list and I played my Tau. I got trounced and he picked the game up quickly! 

Albeit, I was able to remember the rules easily enough as well as the stats so it was fun. We used all of the Eldar PGS has in their case which almost came to 70 PL. 

I found that I don't like Wave Serpents, they seem too good but that is me. The super rend rules on the Eldar's base weapons... Stupid super rend. 

 

We had fun, lots of tactical decisions were made and it felt better than when I played 5th. I like it a lot more that 5th and the bit of 6th I played. 

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20 minutes ago, PumpkinHead said:

If they are going to be tweaking rules and updating factions as necessary, it almost seems like you need to buy the digital version so your Index stays up to date. Otherwise do you buy a new book every time or just use sharpie to update?

That's why they have the points side at the end. Just add a new page 

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2 hours ago, spagunk said:

HOLY SMOKES people. I'm absolutely NOT comparing old stats. I'm comparing current stats/abilities with stats and abilities of other ARMIES in 8th edition. Christ almighty.

Your not really though, berserkers are the only thing you have compared anything of note too. You have stated you believe BA are weak,  yet basically haven't compared them to anything but DC to Berzerkers. That is fair point, though I personally see that as a point adjustment later on.

But the rest of argument is weak as of right now the way to deliver it.  They don't have AA? Then take a vanilla AA, detachments work that way now.  Comparing a Razorback and Baal is silly, they serve completely different rolls.

for the record, friendly argument ??

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One thing that keeps coming up in practice games is the time frame.  We all know new rules will slow things down but the games seem to be taking a lot longer than I expected them to, especially between people who already knew 40K and are familiar with a lot of it by feel.  For example the AP's follow a predictable pattern and so a lot less looking stuff up is needed on those things when the experienced players play but even in those games I've been somewhat bothered by game length.  

Hoping that smooths out.  We have a 2K tournament on July 1 and my hope is everyone going will have done some practicing and list noodling long before.  We might just raffle all prizes in consideration of the fact that some games are just not going to conclude in the 2 hours that GW claims they will.

Anyone else seeing the trend on time?  Any tips on what you're doing , other than the obvious, to avoid the time issues?

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

One thing that keeps coming up in practice games is the time frame.  We all know new rules will slow things down but the games seem to be taking a lot longer than I expected them to, especially between people who already knew 40K and are familiar with a lot of it by feel.  For example the AP's follow a predictable pattern and so a lot less looking stuff up is needed on those things when the experienced players play but even in those games I've been somewhat bothered by game length.  

Hoping that smooths out.  We have a 2K tournament on July 1 and my hope is everyone going will have done some practicing and list noodling long before.  We might just raffle all prizes in consideration of the fact that some games are just not going to conclude in the 2 hours that GW claims they will.

Anyone else seeing the trend on time?  Any tips on what you're doing , other than the obvious, to avoid the time issues?

 

 

the main rule book has game time estimates that conform with what they said during the live Q&A: a sub-2hr game is 1500 points or less.

basically the game plays in roughly the same amount of time as before.

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26 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

One thing that keeps coming up in practice games is the time frame.  We all know new rules will slow things down but the games seem to be taking a lot longer than I expected them to, especially between people who already knew 40K and are familiar with a lot of it by feel.  For example the AP's follow a predictable pattern and so a lot less looking stuff up is needed on those things when the experienced players play but even in those games I've been somewhat bothered by game length.  

Hoping that smooths out.  We have a 2K tournament on July 1 and my hope is everyone going will have done some practicing and list noodling long before.  We might just raffle all prizes in consideration of the fact that some games are just not going to conclude in the 2 hours that GW claims they will.

Anyone else seeing the trend on time?  Any tips on what you're doing , other than the obvious, to avoid the time issues?

 

 

That is odd. I have only seen the reverse in the time of the games. They seem longer but that comes down to you not knowing the individual rules. Once I got the weapons down it is easy and fast

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1 minute ago, Dusldorf said:

the main rule book has game time estimates that conform with what they said during the live Q&A: a sub-2hr game is 1500 points or less.

basically the game plays in roughly the same amount of time as before.

There was a claim made in one of their pre-release announcements that 2K could be played in 2 hours.  I see in the book that it says 2-3 (a hedge) but it was announced at one point that this could happen before the book came out and I've seen no game go only 2 hours as they say it "could".  We're not even close to that it seems like.  I dont know too many that were regularly playing it at 1500 although obviously that isnt to say it shouldn't or cant be.  1850 was the ITC standard.  2K was the "fun standard around here when we weren't at tournaments.

That's kind of off the subject.  whether or not games are going more or less quickly for some, i am curious if anyone is doing some things to mitigate time in the general sense.

 

 

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