Jump to content

New 40k edition


pretre

Recommended Posts

I got two more games in today.  First against Tau Empire, then against Space Marines.  I used my Dark Eldar in both contests and managed wins.

I learned a lot from these two games.  Stuff that hadn't come up before came up.  The big issue though was that both games took too long!  It's still plaguing us.

In the Tau Empire contest, it was two grizzled vets, and we both have been Tau players forever, so the familiarity with his army was very good for both of us.  Still took us four hours and my Dark Eldar list is perforce a little smaller than it was before.

We identified that the thing that was killing us was the "alternating melee" and also the very real impact of the elimination of Sweeping Advances AND the second combat phase you miss out on in this edition.

What I mean by that is that it is the logical choice for the Fire Warriors to fall out of melee when faced with the vastly superior Dark Eldar combatants.  Of course.  But that means that unlike in previous Editions, You are not only unable to sweeping advance the unit in the first place and end in the open (same result as falling back gives now) which would have eliminated units much faster, but you also then lose the second round of combat you would have gotten on the Tau Empires turn.  Morale isn't enough, we are finding, to really stop this kind of endless wading through things from happening.

The net result is that it took FOREVER to get to the inevitable conclusion of the game. 

Falling back and not being able to fire is good for the Tau, but not necessarily for the game itself.  The game devolved into him falling back, his few Crisis Teams/commanders firing on me.  Then I'd charge the Fire Warrior screens again (which really made his only real shooting after turn two into Overwatch), his survivors would fall back again and the few Crisis teams/leaders would shoot me.  Ultimately, it was like a death of one thousand paper cuts.  We stopped just short of the tabling as it seemed unnecessary between friends but we were a little frazzled by the time it took, as there were just so many more units alive so much longer deep into the game than there ever has been.

It's an interesting problem to solve for sure.  Anywho, 1:45 AM.  Probably need to sleep now.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I got two more games in today.  First against Tau Empire, then against Space Marines.  I used my Dark Eldar in both contests and managed wins.

I learned a lot from these two games.  Stuff that hadn't come up before came up.  The big issue though was that both games took too long!  It's still plaguing us.

In the Tau Empire contest, it was two grizzled vets, and we both have been Tau players forever, so the familiarity with his army was very good for both of us.  Still took us four hours and my Dark Eldar list is perforce a little smaller than it was before.

We identified that the thing that was killing us was the "alternating melee" and also the very real impact of the elimination of Sweeping Advances AND the second combat phase you miss out on in this edition.

What I mean by that is that it is the logical choice for the Fire Warriors to fall out of melee when faced with the vastly superior Dark Eldar combatants.  Of course.  But that means that unlike in previous Editions, You are not only unable to sweeping advance the unit in the first place and end in the open (same result as falling back gives now) which would have eliminated units much faster, but you also then lose the second round of combat you would have gotten on the Tau Empires turn.  Morale isn't enough, we are finding, to really stop this kind of endless wading through things from happening.

The net result is that it took FOREVER to get to the inevitable conclusion of the game. 

Falling back and not being able to fire is good for the Tau, but not necessarily for the game itself.  The game devolved into him falling back, his few Crisis Teams/commanders firing on me.  Then I'd charge the Fire Warrior screens again (which really made his only real shooting after turn two into Overwatch), his survivors would fall back again and the few Crisis teams/leaders would shoot me.  Ultimately, it was like a death of one thousand paper cuts.  We stopped just short of the tabling as it seemed unnecessary between friends but we were a little frazzled by the time it took, as there were just so many more units alive so much longer deep into the game than there ever has been.

It's an interesting problem to solve for sure.  Anywho, 1:45 AM.  Probably need to sleep now.

 Ahh yes,,"The Grind" 40k style.

  Dont see the fall back stuff too much in AoS but pretty much the same outcome,just happens amongst the main force of face beaters in each army.

  Curious though,,what scenario were you playing?.Reason I ask is playing to the objectives should alleviate some of this effect in games,,were is just trying to kill the opponents army aggravates it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

The big issue though was that both games took too long!  It's still plaguing us.

I think once the new system has been out longer than a half a day games will most likely speed up a bit.  Muscle memory and memorization will go a long way :)

Of corse there will always be missions/list combos that will make for grind fests, there always have been, no biggy.

I cracked my copy open yesterday and have been slowly absorbing everything new.

 

What 'did' you guys like about the new system?

I'm still pretty stoked to get in some fights :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Threejacks said:

 Ahh yes,,"The Grind" 40k style.

  Dont see the fall back stuff too much in AoS but pretty much the same outcome,just happens amongst the main force of face beaters in each army.

  Curious though,,what scenario were you playing?.Reason I ask is playing to the objectives should alleviate some of this effect in games,,were is just trying to kill the opponents army aggravates it.

We were playing the one where theres an objective in both deployment zones.  Vanguard Deployment and mine was placed CENTER and on my deployment line so I could easily drop back to it (My army pressures forward so there no sreason to leave it WAY BACK THERE on Vanguard Deployment).

Against the Space Marines it was Dawn of War deployment and It was the No Mercy mission.  At the end of that one, he had two Rhinos, a lone Missile Launcher dude and his Dreadnought left, and it was about to be my turn, albeit we called it there as well.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah,,we noticed that games with only 2 objectives(one in each deployement or side of the board) really lead to grind fests.In AoS,the Take and Hold scenario just has an objective on each table half and usually leads to a kill count fight,,it can be quite boring really.Of course this is the same in kill point only games.

  The ruleset seems to work best when there is at least 3 objectives in the game,helps to keep forces spread out and avoid the big scrum in the middle or in the case of 40k,the "shoot fest" game.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Psilence said:

I think once the new system has been out longer than a half a day games will most likely speed up a bit.  Muscle memory and memorization will go a long way :)

Of corse there will always be missions/list combos that will make for grind fests, there always have been, no biggy.

I cracked my copy open yesterday and have been slowly absorbing everything new.

 

What 'did' you guys like about the new system?

I'm still pretty stoked to get in some fights :)

To be fair, I've had accces and been playing games since long before it dropped.  =)

What I liked:  Movement phase was simpler.  The "Advance" mechanic was something a lOT of players just kind of looked for permission from opponents to do before to speed games up and so them making it part of the move phase made it less cumbersome.  It just made sense to use the advance mechanic.  

Also Assault weapons are so much better on a lot of units because they can now be fired after you advance, at -1.  That was pretty cool for some weapons.

In the shooting phase it felt pretty much the same.  Split firing came up in our games and was useful.  The targetting rules create some issues (especially when it comes to characters) but the new wounding chart makes more sense (to my way of thinking).  The fact that the deadliness of things like Bolters is now better represented pleases me.  Heavy Bolters ripping off chunks of armored vehicles feels right (even though it was my vehicles being shot up) but it feels equally right that three heavy bolter shots should not be outright killing a vehicle.

The wounds mechanic for vehicles and the like makes life really simple.  I'll be honest, I dont think this "adds" as much to the game as some people laud it to be doing.  I never found the differeing mechanic challenging to understand in any way.  The thing I like about it however is that the vehicles most definitely FEEL tougher now and that is the way I think it should feel.  They could have accomplished this in different ways but this solution worked as well as any and I like the FEEL of the difficulty of taking them down more.

in the assault phase im pretty much in love with the fact that aggression pays and the charger gets to go first.  That makes so much sense to me.  It made sense to me back when i played 6th and 7th Edition Warhammer Fantasy and it makes sense to me now.  Love it.  It revivified units that had been relegated to the scrap heap like Penitent Engines (my GAWD they are terrifying now).  That rule is gold.

As Ranged Weapons go, the mechanic for modifying saves with the weapons AP is very impactful.  I notice that a LOOOOOOT more units get saves and it takes far more effort to erase units.  The game made everything harder to kill in several ways but this stands out.  My Dark Eldar were actually getting saves agains ta lions oshare of the weapons that used to just blow them off the table.  Bolters used to end Warriors and now they get saves.  Space Marines are getting SOME form of save against even the most heinous weapons that used to clean them off the board.  Cover is making Tactical Marines very scary as they approach if you play them aggressively.  The entire game just made it much harder to remove models, and for people who played Tyranids or Orks and things like that and bemoaned essentially never really getting saves, this is welcome respite.  Larger units are clearly the order of the day in this new version.  MSU in sooooome peoples minds might make sense but in my games so far, I'm not too sure you will want to do that unless they are like my army and have a lot of wounds packed into those few models.

Command Points are a GREAT hedge against the frustrations you feel when you own an army like my Dark Eldar where you have very little shooting but its critical.  for example, my Dark Lances are very few in number in my list, and missing with them stings.  I really do need them to perform and having Command Points makes that one unreliable element of the list be a little less unreliable: key.  I used my Command Points to keep a Raider alive longer against the Tau Empire Fusilade which paid BIG dividends for me in keepin the occupants alive and forcing him to use yet more units to crack that shell.  He got the Raider i nthe end but it spared me 60 Pulse Rifle shots ot the face to the units inside by using the command points to re-roll Raider saves. For a squishy but hard hitting assault army like mine, that's a big deal.

Stowing multiple units in Raiders is gold.  LOVE that rule change.

So those are the things I like about it thus far.  I have plenty enough games in using the new rules to attest that there are some issues.  But that is the things that stand out to me and that I like.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, generalripphook said:

Are facing gone? 

How do you think this will impact the points levels of games being played?

Facings are gone. I wouldn't be surprised to see them creep back up to 2K after a while, but I sort of suspect we'll see some 1k-1500s for a while as people get used to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, generalripphook said:

So did flamers get screwed over? 

They used to have ignore cover and AP 5. 

Now with just a -1 save they can ignore cover but no other armor. 

But the trade off is cover is harder to get? Thus the -1 will be more applied to regular saves and not canceling saves?

Only heavy flamers have -1 AP. Regular flamers are 0 AP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, generalripphook said:

So did flamers get screwed over? 

They used to have ignore cover and AP 5. 

Now with just a -1 save they can ignore cover but no other armor. 

But the trade off is cover is harder to get? Thus the -1 will be more applied to regular saves and not canceling saves?

Flamer Auto Hit Flyers... That in itself is 100% more amazing then they used to be

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...