pretre Posted April 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 I see tons of ork armies. At the last (or the one before) tournament I went to, there was at least one ork mirror match and I seem to remember at least one of them placing highly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 I wouldn't know since I don't go to tournaments. I don't mean to sound like a dick, but after 10 years of Warmachine Tournaments I am burnt out on that style of gaming. And while that might be the hot hot heat, I just don't see myself paying money to play according to a clock. Just not my cup of tea. Now a club based campaign? hot-cha-cha! That is right up my alley sir! :D 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Sugarlessllama said: I miss Orks. Yeah, orks. Remember them? Big green screaming death machines that scream "waaaaaaaagh!" You don't see them because crazy rules and jerks playing crazy armies have roflstomped their players into oblivion (at least all the ork players that I know). Same with Nids (all of the Tyranid players I know). And I would love a rules set that allowed for those armies to thrive. Not roflstomp, but thrive. I would love Heavy Bolters, and Power Armor to be rad again. I just like the look of a Space Marine in Power Armor armed with a Heavy Bolter. I miss old orks too. Love the old Loota rules. Mark has a pretty strong ork list, if you want to see those working in compeditive play. But I agree, they could certainly use work. Got a good presence in the GG league, though most are less strong than other armies. As for tyranids, I have some of those. Yeah, this edition sucks for them, but to be fair, they still haven't gotten a codex for this edition, so saying they are lacking in "this edition" is an understatement. And I agree that SM in PA and with heavy bolters look awesome and should be awesome, and they really need second glance from GW. My AM could also use a second glance from GW, as they are the other codex that has yet to be updated for this edition. But all of these are things that GW could easily fix in this edition. The fact that they aren't isn't because they are lazy, or because of a lack of profit, but to create a false need for a new edition. Codex creep isn't an acident, GW does it to create the need for a new edition. If your looking for a balanced 40k, it's codex creep that is the problem (and just GW being greedy). And SM are always the most currently updated army, meaning that they have the most codex creep and therefore the least balance. And they're upping the timetable. If this edition is successful, expect the next edition in a meager 2 years time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Sugarlessllama said: I wouldn't know since I don't go to tournaments. I don't mean to sound like a dick, but after 10 years of Warmachine Tournaments I am burnt out on that style of gaming. And while that might be the hot hot heat, I just don't see myself paying money to play according to a clock. Just not my cup of tea. Now a club based campaign? hot-cha-cha! That is right up my alley sir! :D The stop clock is interesting because theres a guy who was at the last Warmachine tournament who said, literally: "The best way to win is to run out their clock". Apparently he's poor enough at the game that he relies on this to win. That being said... It seems like a very strange way to approach a war game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 1 hour ago, pretre said: I see tons of ork armies. At the last (or the one before) tournament I went to, there was at least one ork mirror match and I seem to remember at least one of them placing highly. As a 7ed barometer there were 4 ork armies in the adepticon championship out of 203 armies. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 Well Warmachine is a very tightly knit, and well balanced set of rules designed for one thing, and one thing only: tournament play. The rules team issues out errata to all units in the game every three months or so based upon tournament results and balance in tournament play. And this is addition to weekly rules rulings presented on the boards. And at least one of their world champions has been hired on to the rules team full time. So the deathclock format is designed to encourage fast and aggressive play that is enables large tournaments (100+ players) to be completed in a single day. When compared to the Guardian Cup which takes a whole weekend, and doesn't have 50 tables going at the same time. In other words, it actually is a competitive game. 40K... not so much. To people that say otherwise I have two words: codex creep. It doesn't happen in Warmachine, and it doesn't happen for a reason. PP wants every single faction to have a chance at winning the top table of the Iron Gauntlet (the global tournament circuit PP runs). And to be honest, it is fantastic. Because it isn't a faction that wins, it is the player that wins. But with that said, I don't play Warmachine much any more. I really like that I have a DIY Chapter of Space Marines. I like being able to write the lore for my army myself, and to craft the narrative of their battles. I find it more satisfying than "Oh, I guess we are fighting in the Thornwood again. And Reznik is still not happy." or "Oh look, Reznik v Reznik". That doesn't happen to me in 40K and I really appreciate that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, Skkipper said: As a 7ed barometer there were 4 ork armies in the adepticon championship out of 203 armies. It is true that less people play them. What is more interesting is that when you look at the actual percentages in the ITC, which i took the time to do recently, you will find that the Faction matters less to the chance of victory than one would think. I might be able to find that post i did, but basically what was interesting was the number of people who played a given faction, who scored above 400+ in the ITC. the percentage OF the players playingthat faction THAT still managed that feat was led by the Eldar but not by a percentage of the time that was as big as you would have thought. Orks werent even near the bottom of that list. Skitarii hovered near it though which was a surprise given the War Convocation and some of the placings. The point of doing that study was to show that the General was QUITE likely to have more to do with it than the Faction (Faction still mattered as we might expect, but just not to the DEGREE one would expect). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Sugarlessllama said: Well Warmachine is a very tightly knit, and well balanced set of rules designed for one thing, and one thing only: tournament play. The rules team issues out errata to all units in the game every three months or so based upon tournament results and balance in tournament play. And this is addition to weekly rules rulings presented on the boards. And at least one of their world champions has been hired on to the rules team full time. So the deathclock format is designed to encourage fast and aggressive play that is enables large tournaments (100+ players) to be completed in a single day. When compared to the Guardian Cup which takes a whole weekend, and doesn't have 50 tables going at the same time. In other words, it actually is a competitive game. 40K... not so much. To people that say otherwise I have two words: codex creep. It doesn't happen in Warmachine, and it doesn't happen for a reason. PP wants every single faction to have a chance at winning the top table of the Iron Gauntlet (the global tournament circuit PP runs). And to be honest, it is fantastic. Because it isn't a faction that wins, it is the player that wins. Well... That may be true, while what I said still stands: clocking someone seems like an odd way to try and win. My force might be better, my strategy better and it may simply be that my army takes more of my allotted time to actually maneuver and use. Every game comes with its own eccentricities. "Gaming the clock" essentially the reverese way a miscreant Warhammer player might try it is just one of them. For a player to state that it is the BEST way was what was notable here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 Sparks who finished 2nd didn't play guard his favorite army. Why? Like orks, guard can't win at the top events. There is no balance in 40k and a balanced result comes from poor players playing good codex armies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, Skkipper said: Sparks who finished 2nd didn't play guard his favorite army. Why? Like orks, guard can't win at the top events. There is no balance in 40k and a balanced result comes from poor players playing good codex armies One example isnt really a case study. I understand what you are saying of course. I just dont agree with the conclusion, but i think we can agree on the fact that Codex matters. It does. Degree is another matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted April 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Adepticon is a bit of a special case. Now I want to look at the overall ITC events and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 2 hours ago, pretre said: I see tons of ork armies. At the last (or the one before) tournament I went to, there was at least one ork mirror match and I seem to remember at least one of them placing highly. Highest ranking Ork list at Adepticon...57th out of just over 200 Highest ranking Ork list at LVO tied at 40th place out of over 300 entries. These two events should bring out the most competative players in the meta I would think,,as you can see Orks are far from the top tables.Not saying they cant pull a win out now and then in more local metas,,just that in the grand scheme of things they have been pretty much hosed since 6th dropped and it hasnt got much better for them. Im sure that DE and Nids didnt fare well either and are in the same boat pretty much,so theres that. The point still is that the balance amongst the factions in AoS is much closer than in 40k.Both LVO and Adeptecon had multiple armies from all 4 of the Grand Alliances present in the top 12.Certainly there are favored cheese lists,but they exists in all GA`s.Strange enough but Savage Orruks have probably the best shooting Battalion in the game right now lol. It would be nice to see things tightened up in 40k so that each army had at least one or two builds that could have a decent chance in the overall meta,,probably wishfull thinking but as shown by the "simple"AoS game,,it is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 I miss Orks being competitive. I'll tell you what killed them: scatterbikes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 13 minutes ago, fluger said: I miss Orks being competitive. I'll tell you what killed them: scatterbikes. Wyverns and TFC didn't help matters, tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 3 hours ago, fluger said: I miss Orks being competitive. I'll tell you what killed them: scatterbikes. Scatterbikes did not help. It changes the way you need to play orks. I fought a scatter bike army with orks at two different tournies. Almost won the first game but for some rotten luck and did win the second (because of rotten luck). So I can say with certainty it was up hill in both games either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 But what does all this have to do with the rumors surrounding the release of 8th? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 23 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said: But what does all this have to do with the rumors surrounding the release of 8th? I would assume the buff to melee type armies with that charge first swing first rule. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Well there has been a lot of sore feelings presented not only on this board, but also other boards (namely Bolter & Chainsword where I spend way too much time). I attempted to address some of these feelings by saying that yes, they were valid feelings to have; but no, the sky is not falling. In the course of my post I mentioned that under the current edition of the rules I really only see Space Marine, Tau, and Eldar armies; and that I would love a new edition to drop so that maybe Ork and Tyranid players would come out and play as well. This led to a discussion of Orks being in some tournaments, and a retort that the tournament data showed that there weren't as many ork players at adeptacon, and etc. But it I think it all comes back to this: I think there is an strong desire for more variety in the types of armies being played by both casual and competitive players. As I can only speak for myself, but I was getting a really burned out on Space Marine on Space Marine action all the time. Maybe if the other dudes in Power Armor had spikes it would be alright, but nope... not so much. However, I didn't even notice it until SW:A dropped and I was playing against a couple different kills teams. I was blown away when someone showed up with an Ork kill team and I had a blast seeing angry green maniacs on the table. The way the rules were written, every faction has a solid chance of winning and so I was seeing lots of different factions showing up. And I really, really enjoy it. So that is where I am coming from. Rumors are abounding that there is going to be some major overhauls to 8th, and that we can take several design queues from both AoS and SW:A. And if that is in fact true, I think 8th is really going to be something special. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 16 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said: One example isnt really a case study. Isn't that, like, the definition of a case study lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 3 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said: But what does all this have to do with the rumors surrounding the release of 8th? Mostly, it brings out the wishlist. I can empathize with sugarlessllama because I went from 40k to WMH and I'm enjoying the rapid and smart balancing that PP does, but the game leaves me cold because it isn't very personalized. 40k will always have my heart, but its hard to care too much when its so imbalanced. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 13 hours ago, fluger said: I miss Orks being competitive. I'll tell you what killed them: scatterbikes. I'm also not a huge fan of that Eldar Craftworld codex. Very few armies I've played that use that codex, have been fun to play against. I'm sure it can be done, but I faced 17 D weapons in a single list recently (not even a tournament), and that wasn't fun. But in fairness, doesn't seem like an Ork issue... One of the locals runs a stompa in every list. His stompa is beautiful, so he's always got the coolest model. Another local, also GG league, has his orks sporting the FW gargantuan squigoth - he says it's amazing in game, but I have yet to face it. And then we have mark, who's ordo name I always forget, but he's been running an ork deathstar list with Gazgul, who sports a 2+ re-rollable invulnerbable save, and has some ability that allows him to "Waggh" every turn and make all his models fearless - got wiped by that recently, but it was fun. Got one more, but I don't think his orks have been working for him. That's 4 Ork players in the GG league, at least lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 4 hours ago, paxmiles said: I'm also not a huge fan of that Eldar Craftworld codex. Very few armies I've played that use that codex, have been fun to play against. I'm sure it can be done, but I faced 17 D weapons in a single list recently (not even a tournament), and that wasn't fun. But in fairness, doesn't seem like an Ork issue... One of the locals runs a stompa in every list. His stompa is beautiful, so he's always got the coolest model. Another local, also GG league, has his orks sporting the FW gargantuan squigoth - he says it's amazing in game, but I have yet to face it. And then we have mark, who's ordo name I always forget, but he's been running an ork deathstar list with Gazgul, who sports a 2+ re-rollable invulnerbable save, and has some ability that allows him to "Waggh" every turn and make all his models fearless - got wiped by that recently, but it was fun. Got one more, but I don't think his orks have been working for him. That's 4 Ork players in the GG league, at least lately. w/ what, wraithguard? they're pretty underpowered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Dusldorf said: w/ what, wraithguard? they're pretty underpowered Let's see. List was 15 wraithguard, one of those D weapon artillery, a wraithknight with scatter lasers and D melee, two very large blobs of scatter bikers, and one of the new eldar special characters from that $90 box set, plus some spirit seers, warlocks, and other eldar psykers. He had that soulburst, which let him fire D weapons extra times, each time they killed something. I dwell on the 17 D weapons, because that seems excessive, but the rest of the list was also unpleasent. And in his list, each time a unit kills something, that grants one of his units, the option to shoot again. As written, each IC in a unit, is their own unit too, so wraithguard are pretty abusive there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted April 13, 2017 Report Share Posted April 13, 2017 15 hours ago, paxmiles said: Let's see. List was 15 wraithguard, one of those D weapon artillery, a wraithknight with scatter lasers and D melee, two very large blobs of scatter bikers, and one of the new eldar special characters from that $90 box set, plus some spirit seers, warlocks, and other eldar psykers. He had that soulburst, which let him fire D weapons extra times, each time they killed something. I dwell on the 17 D weapons, because that seems excessive, but the rest of the list was also unpleasent. And in his list, each time a unit kills something, that grants one of his units, the option to shoot again. As written, each IC in a unit, is their own unit too, so wraithguard are pretty abusive there. It is matches like these that make me happy that we are getting a new edition. I am really hoping that some of this stuff is really going to be toned down going forward. I'm sorry that you had a lame match Pax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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