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Weav

Necromunda/Shadow War points comparison

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I haven't looked too deep into it, but does anyone know if the points between the game are the same? I know a bolter is 35 points in each game, at least that's my recollection from Necromunda years ago. The genesis of my question is if someone could run their Outlanders gang in a Shadow War game...Redemptionists for example.

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Except the Redemptionsists have odd weapons not included in Shadow War. Eviscerators, for example.

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50 minutes ago, Weav said:

Except the Redemptionsists have odd weapons not included in Shadow War. Eviscerators, for example.

Someday i hope to have my Redemptionists actually see the tabletop...

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Personally I would vote for just allowing people to run their old gangs in the new system. If they have weapons in their inventory that have a points value in both games, then just use the points from the new game. For weapons that might only exist in the old game, then use the entry for the old game. I don't think it would break the game.

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For a quick-and-dirty way to casual game up and running, I think it would work almost perfectly just using Necromunda lists as written. I'd just use Necromunda stats for any equipment not currently in Shadow War. It'd be close enough.

If you wanted everything to work out "perfectly balanced," you'd probably need to reduce the point values of a lot of the Hive Ganger's options a smidgen. This would involve a lot more complicated math and extensive playtesting... Well past my personal "point of diminishing returns."

 

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1 hour ago, Sugarlessllama said:

I actually kind of like that there aren't any vehicles or bikes in this game. I really like the idea of fire team on fire team action. It just feels more awesome to me. :D

Oh, I wouldn't want them to be a regular feature of the game*, but a special mission where one or two vehicles played a part might be fun... For example, one player ambushing a Chimera/Rhino/Falcon/Devilfish that is carrying a key V.I.P. that the other player needs to escort... 

...or maybe recreating the iconic Kelly's Heroes versus Tiger tank scene with a Predator.

 

 

* Unless we get Gorkamorka back! 

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16 hours ago, Ish said:

Oh, I wouldn't want them to be a regular feature of the game*, but a special mission where one or two vehicles played a part might be fun... For example, one player ambushing a Chimera/Rhino/Falcon/Devilfish that is carrying a key V.I.P. that the other player needs to escort... 

...or maybe recreating the iconic Kelly's Heroes versus Tiger tank scene with a Predator.

 

 

* Unless we get Gorkamorka back! 

Actually that would be pretty awesome. Since I haven't looked at the rules for Gorkamorka, are they very different from Shadow War? I also know that there was a lot of fan supported content for Necromunda online; are there rules for vehicles within those rules? If so, then we might be able to just port them in for special missions.

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The only differences I can spot on a quick read-through are that GM Ammo Rolls were taken on 1d6, and it still used special Sustained Fire Dice instead of just a d3. Should be possible to use those Vehicle Rules for Shadow War, but there would need to be a few modifications for the more reliable non-Ork Vehicles, and coming up with statlines and damage tables for those Vehicles that everyone could agree on.

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1 hour ago, DasBox said:

I think I can help! There were experimental rules for bikes and other larger vehicles printed for Necromunda. Think they were the short lived Necromunda Magazine.

 There was I have the stuff... but I'm not at home

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1 hour ago, Ish said:

You could probably get workable stats for a lot of vehicles from the Second Edition codices and data faxes... 

Points costs might be hard to work out, but for a Vehicle that's part of a special scenario or something, those should work fairly well.

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Here's my (very rough) idea on how to treat a Rhino in SW:A.

Basically, give it a statline like any other model and it should be easier to integrate it into the game. High base movement, really strong armor, and a pile of wounds... But still vulnerable to most of the heavier weapons available to Kill-Teams. One good roll on a demo charge could one-shot it and an average roll will cripple it.

My basic scenario idea would be a escort/ambush... Set up the terrain in any mutually agreeable manner, but leave a 4-6" wide 'road' from one end to the other that is clear of any impassable terrain. The escorts and the Rhino start within 6" of one table edge on the "road," the ambushing team can set up anywhere else (subject to usual restrictions on distance from enemies and being hidden). The escorting team is joined by a VIP, who must start embarked in the Rhino. He has stats identical to an un-upgraded Leader of your faction, but is only armed with a knife and the cheapest pistol your faction can select. The escorting team wins when they get the Rhino's VIP passenger off the opposite table edge.

Space Marine Rhino

M: Special

WS: 2

BS: 4

S: 6

T: 6

W: 10

I: 3 

A: 1 

Ld: 9

Save: 3+; Unshakable, Armor saves taken on 2d6, 6+ Invulnerable Save

Equipment: A Rhino has a Storm Bolter with a 360° field of fire. The Rhino may be fitted with single use canister launchers with smoke grenades for +10 Points or smoke and frag grenades for +25 Points.

Combat Speed / Flanking Speed: A Rhino may move at combat speed of 8" and fire its Storm Bolter normally or it may move at flanking speed of 12" and fire its Storm Bolter at BS2.

Damaged Tracks: When a Rhino is reduced to less than eight wounds, it may no longer move at flanking speed and is reduced to I 1. When a Rhino is reduced to less than three wounds, it may no longer move. 

Transport: Works like in regular 40k.

 

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I think I would take the T up to 7, completely eliminate the possibility of Lasguns/Autoguns taking it down. That does require the Ambusher to have some serious Heavies, but they should know that going in. Probably bring the Wounds down as well, possibly all the way to 6, so a Lascannon/Meltagun/Krak Missile have a chance of one-shotting it as well. Or maybe just give the Meltagun extra Damage if it's in Short Range or something like that.

Is the 6+ Invul also intended to be taken on 2d6? If so, it's very strong against anything heavier than an Autocannon, but if not, it's pointless, as a 9+ on 2d6 is better odds than a 6+ on 1d6, and there's nothing with a Save Modifier greater than -6.

Based on your statline:
BS4 Autocannon in 40K: ~2/3HP per Turn, 4-5 Turns to drop a Rhino in the open on average
BS4 Autocannon in SW: ~1/2 Wounds per Turn, ~20 Turns to drop a Rhino in the open on average

BS4 Lascannon in 40K: ~1/2HP, and a 1/9 chance of one-shotting it per Turn, ~5-6 Turns to drop a Rhino in the open on average
BS4 Lascannon in SW: ~1.5 Wounds per Turn, no chance to one-shot, ~ 7 Turns to drop a Rhino in the open on average. This goes up to like 27 Turns if the 6++ is taken on 2d6. The Save Modifier makes far more difference between the Autocannon and Lascannon than the AP does.

Short version, you've made it way more durable to shooting-especially mid-level shooting-than a 40K Rhino. I think I might actually reverse-engineer the defensive statline. Look at what you're expecting to have shooting at it, figure out how many Turns on average you want those guns to take to drop it (e.g. if it can cross a 4x4 table in 4 Turns, you want the Ambusher to have a reasonable chance of taking it down in that time frame), and work out what statline will put you there. T7, 6 Wounds, and a 2+/6++ (neither taken on 2d6) has a Missile Launcher downing the thing in 4-5 Turns on average, as a point of reference.

The SW system also has far, far more variability here in a lot of ways. It might actually be a good idea to have the Vehicle roll a Save against each Wound suffered from Multi-Wound Weapons rather than having one Save be all or nothing. So if the Lascannon rolled a 4 for the number of Wounds, the Rhino would take 4 Saves, suffering one Wound for each failure, rather than one Save, suffering 4 Wounds if failed, no Wounds if passed.

For movement distance, I actually really like the system from GorkaMorka, tho here it would represent the dangers of trying to move at speed over this kind of Terrain rather than the unreliability of Ork engines: A Vehicle can move 6"/Turn with no problem. If it wants to try to go further, roll a d6. On a 6, it stops and takes a Wound with no Saves allowed, while on a 1-5, the Vehicle moves that many inches farther. This can be continued as long as the rolls are successful, but the danger number goes down by 1 each time, so the second roll will get you 1-4" or a Wound and stop on 5-6, the third is 1-3" and hits or breaks something on 4+, and so on. Once below a certain number of Wounds (say 1/2 or 2/3), you could reduce the base 6" and/or start moving the danger number down earlier. Below 1/3 or 1/4 Wounds, it would be Immobilized. If the Vehicle rolls for extra distance, there is a -1 to-Hit modifier for shooting both from and at it.

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The invulnerable save is on a 1d6... You're probably right that I've made it too durable. But I think the basic concept is sound, it just needs refinement.

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If the Invul is on 1d6, either take it to a 5+, or ditch it. And yeah, most of that was just sort of tossing ideas out there, the only thing that I think really needs to change is that it needs to be somewhat less durable. You can definitely end up with something that will work just fine by tweaking a few numbers in the statline there.

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My brother has been playing Necromunda for a long time and says the points are pretty similar across the board. He is actually making a doc to note the differences. Also, I have it on good word from age-old GW management that Necromunda official is coming. I am not sure yet if it is addition to Shadow War or separate, though I imagine it will be a second book focusing on the gangs.

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