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Flirting with Death


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On June 9, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Ish said:

(Sigh, if only the PowerBall officials would stop giving other people my millions.)

Been debating if playing the lottery qualifies as a charity or not....I do know that it's a sign of depression in me when I start thinking about the lottery as an investment.

Though regarding Orcs and Goblins, you can certainly scratch build 100% of their vehicles and artillery. Not difficult to make a grot-acceptable catapult with just wire, glue, and popcicle sticks. Chariots too. You'd still need models for the Grot or Orruk crew, plus any beasts of burden, but very doable. And even for beasts of burden, you certainly don't need to use GW models for those - kids toys make great mounts and chariot pullers.

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1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

How does alliegence level work with summoned units? I mean, if I, for example, claim to have the Deathrattle Alliegence, does this prevent me from summoning non-deathrattle units?

The way I'm reading the 'Allegiance' box on p. 156 of the GHB combined with the wording of the 'Rineforcement Points' column on p. 108 makes me think that summoned units are sorta "wild cards" when it comes to Allegiance.

You pick the models that go into your army up to the agreed upon Point Level of the game, setting aside some reinforcement points if you want. Then you check the keywords of the Warscrolls in your army for possible keyword matches, choosing one. Then you chose your Allegiance bonuses (command trait, magic item, etc.) Then you start play... and you can only Summon once Play has started, at which point you've already locked in your Allegiance.

Mind you, other "in play"'abilities that look for specific keywords would still be reliant on those keywords.

 

If I have a Vanilla Allegiance army and summon some Chocolate unit, I'm still Vanilla Allegiance. But if my Cake Lord's Command Trait only effects Vanilla units within 6", then the Chocolate unit isn't effected.

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4 hours ago, Ish said:

The way I'm reading the 'Allegiance' box on p. 156 of the GHB combined with the wording of the 'Rineforcement Points' column on p. 108 makes me think that summoned units are sorta "wild cards" when it comes to Allegiance.

You pick the models that go into your army up to the agreed upon Point Level of the game, setting aside some reinforcement points if you want. Then you check the keywords of the Warscrolls in your army for possible keyword matches, choosing one. Then you chose your Allegiance bonuses (command trait, magic item, etc.) Then you start play... and you can only Summon once Play has started, at which point you've already locked in your Allegiance.

Mind you, other "in play"'abilities that look for specific keywords would still be reliant on those keywords.

 

If I have a Vanilla Allegiance army and summon some Chocolate unit, I'm still Vanilla Allegiance. But if my Cake Lord's Command Trait only effects Vanilla units within 6", then the Chocolate unit isn't effected.

Hmm...That really works in my favor. 

So, if I understand it right, I could run a 2k list that started the table with Arkhan the Black and 3 units of (2) Morghast Harbingers. Morghast Harbingers are a battleline unit in a Deathlords alliegence army. That's 1,060pts. Then I could set aside 940pts in reinforcement points, of which could be spend on anything, even non-Deathlords units like skeletons or zombies or even some unit I can only summon because I'm near a certain terrain piece. Do I have this right?

Seems very feasible to make such a list, though that example has only a single wizard (and I don't think Death can summon wizards). 

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As far as I can see, that's a perfectly kosher list. But, Arkhan can only cast two spells per turn and he's still subject to the Rule of One. So assuming you want to use the occasional Smite / Mystic Shield / Curse of Years, you're looking at only 1-2 units per turn and you cannot summon two of the same unit in one phase.

 

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19 minutes ago, Ish said:

As far as I can see, that's a perfectly kosher list. But, Arkhan can only cast two spells per turn and he's still subject to the Rule of One. So assuming you want to use the occasional Smite / Mystic Shield / Curse of Years, you're looking at only 1-2 units per turn and you cannot summon two of the same unit in one phase.

 

Yeah, only 2 summon spells per turn, and no duplicates, and no offensive spells. Definitely an example list, but that would be an easy 2 units per turn, provided the opponent isn't unbinding. Arkhan, alone, is +3 to summon Death units. The Morghasts grant a further +1, should they be within 18" of Arkhan, so +4 on the casting. Command Traits include one that adds a further +1 on casting, so +5 to summon units. Opponent, even if they have more wizards, can only attempt unbind a spell with a single wizard, so no worries about superior casting numbers making this obsolete. One of the undead artefacts, also allows a once-per-game summon without chance of dispell or need to roll casting, and can summon in addition to the spell limit per turn (though I don't think it ignores the limit on duplicates). So 3 units turn 1, 2 units each turn after, all stopped abruptly if you kill Arkhan - which is actually very much a classic WHFB undead playstyle.

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On June 12, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Ish said:

All of that's true, but I happen to like the Citadel models for all of those things anyway.

Speaking of, also a huge fan of Citadel, but they've discountinued model support for various models in my collection. For example, working on the Skeleton army theme, picked up a Wight King mounted on a Zombie Dragon. This guy: http://www.solegends.com/citcat2004cgund/c2004undp0022-02.htm Model arrived today and I love it. Perfect for theme with my army. That said, the current Grand Alliance Death has no options for this combination of Wight King and Zombie Dragon, and I'm not expecting them to fix it at all. 

So, what does he count as? The most obvious suggestion would be a Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon, which is probably what I will do, but that would mean that I can never meet Deathrattle Alliegence requirements, should we actually ever get any rules that extent. 

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1 hour ago, Ish said:

Maybe a Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade on Skeletal Steed? That keeps the Deathrattle Allegiance... It downplays the zombie dragon, but those old pewter beasties are a bit small compared to modern plastic behemoths.

Hmmm...not really concerned about the size of the model. If anything, I'd prefer to have smaller models (easier to transport without a car). 

Though didn't think about this when I posted before, but, unlike most old mounted units, the Metal Zombie Dragon actually looks very good without the rider and the rider is very able to be added to another mount. So I could, put the Wight King on a Skeletal Steed and "also" have a Zombie Dragon for summoning. Seems a shame to part them, though...

Could also have it count as Arkhan the Black on his mystery steed....he's at least supposed to be a skeleton.

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Magnets! 

Have the Wight King able to mount either his trusty zombie-dragon or a faithful skeletal steed! 

(And heck, it shouldn't be too hard to "homebrew" a Warscroll for an actual Wight King on Zombie-Dragon... We've got Warscrolls for both, we've got Warscrolls for the other zombie-dragon riders both mounted and on foot. It would not be tournament legal, but it seems like it wouldn't be game breaking for beer 'n' pretzels gaming.)

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1 hour ago, Ish said:

Magnets! 

Have the Wight King able to mount either his trusty zombie-dragon or a faithful skeletal steed! 

(And heck, it shouldn't be too hard to "homebrew" a Warscroll for an actual Wight King on Zombie-Dragon... We've got Warscrolls for both, we've got Warscrolls for the other zombie-dragon riders both mounted and on foot. It would not be tournament legal, but it seems like it wouldn't be game breaking for beer 'n' pretzels gaming.)

Hmm...a custom hero, yeah, that could be fun. So glad this game isn't super compeditive. I need a fun, silly game. 

As for magnets, there's not really any need. The mounted guy "sits" on the zombie dragon with little effort. Shouldn't be hard to get him on a steed either. Might do some pinning, but I don't think I need the magnets (and for metal models, the magnets are less practical anyway.)

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4 hours ago, Ish said:

Is pewter ferrous? It's been forever since I've done much with a metal mini...

No, but it's very heavy, so you'd need very large, rather invasive magnets and they still don't hold nearly as well as with lightweight plastic models. For metal models, adding just a rod (called a pin) on one end, and just having an unglued empty hold on the other end, is usually the more practical option. Drilling the pins in place can be time consuming, but that is really the only disadvantage over magnets, especially since the only metal models aren't really designed to have interchangeable weapons.

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Oh, I'm quite familiar with pinning. That weekend I spent constructing that gorram Wood Elf Forest Dragon still haunts my nightmares... I miss a lot of the designs and sculpts from the Eighties and Nineties, but I do not miss pewter itself.

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2 hours ago, Ish said:

Oh, I'm quite familiar with pinning.

Figured as much, but it's easy to explain it, so I figured I'd just add it anyway. Plus, if anyone doesn't know, who's reading the thread, now they know. Good for completeness.

As for the materials, plastic and pewter certainly have their strengths and weaknesses. I do think AoS is better suited for metal minis than WHFB ever was, if only for it requiring fewer models (since I can use reinforcement points to replace the need for buckets of undead).

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Okay, so model list, as it grows and changes...

For Heroes, I have Arkan the Black. Wight King BSB on foot. Wight King with Sword on Skeletal Steed. Necromancer on Skeletal Steed. High Queen Khalida.

For units, I have 10 Skeleton Warriors with Spears, I have 10 Skeleton Archers, 2 Morghast Harbingers. 4 Tomb Swarms, 2 Tomb Scorpions. 

For Warmachines, I have 2 Screaming Skull Catapults

For Behemoths, I have 1 Zombie Dragon. 

Need more skeletons, but I think I'm set for this entire army up to 2k, with just that. 

 

Going to work on a list that's more balanced for playing against Getting Started Orruks and Slyvanneth (Arkhan is too much for that level). 

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Okay, weak list and only in progress, but list for games against Start Collecting armies:

Hero & General: Necromancer (Steed) 120pts

Unit & Battleline: Skeleton Warriors (10, Spears and Shields) 80pts

Unit & Battleline: Skeleton Warriors (10, Swords and Shields) 80pts

Unit: Morghast Harbingers (2) 240pts

Total: 520pts, no reinforcement points. 

4 total units, 23 total models. Should be "able" to win against most opponents, but certainly an uphill battle against some. 

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I blame my lack of motivation on the hot weather....

On June 19, 2017 at 5:44 PM, paxmiles said:

Okay, weak list and only in progress, but list for games against Start Collecting armies:

Hero & General: Necromancer (Steed) 120pts

Unit & Battleline: Skeleton Warriors (10, Spears and Shields) 80pts

Unit & Battleline: Skeleton Warriors (10, Swords and Shields) 80pts

Unit: Morghast Harbingers (2) 240pts

Total: 520pts, no reinforcement points. 

4 total units, 23 total models. Should be "able" to win against most opponents, but certainly an uphill battle against some. 

Okay, tweaks. Managed to snag a unit of Metal GW skeleton archers (7, all one pose. Command will make up the remaining 3).

Hero & General: Necromancer (Nightmare) 120pts

Unit & Battleline: Skeleton Warriors (10, Spears and Shields) 80pts

Unit & Battleline: Skeleton Warriors (10, Swords and Shields) 80pts

Unit: Skeleton Archers (10) 100pts

Warmachine: Screaming Skull Catapult (1 Catapult, 3 Crew) 120pts

Total: 500pts, no reinforcement points (no summoning). 

5 total units, 35 total models. Iffy Victory, given how very slow this army is (plus skeletons really don't qualify as "elite" troops).  I do have range and numbers, but I doubt my ability to repel combat monsters.

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3 hours ago, Ish said:

At 500 Points, that's a fair horde of bodies... and quantity has a quality all its own. 

Its also an excellent core to build large point value armies around.

Agree it might be too many. Do you think this looks like a fun challenge for your "getting started" army? Or do you think 35 models is too many for that size game?

I could certainly reduce the numbers, but doing so does mean increasing the quality of the units I do bring...

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10 hours ago, Ish said:

It's fine. You worry way too much about what other people think of your army list.

No, I'm just not very familiar with the other armies for getting started, so looking for a second opinion regarding balance. I don't really feel that the General's Handbook balances the more cheesey models in my army, and I certainly don't think that Getting Started Army I played with you last time, was balanced against either you or ellie's force. Though part of the issue was that remarkably unagressive Treeman.

 

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Don't get me wrong, it shows excellent sportsmanship on your part that you're so concerned about it... I'm just saying, don't sweat it too much.

Many, many, many moons ago (before blogs were a thing even even) I read a great essay called Putting an End to Cheesiness. It was an eye-opening moment for me: "I might not beat you, but I hope I’ll give you a run for your money."

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