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5 things you learned so far 40k 8th


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16 hours ago, PumpkinHead said:

So your position is that if I have a hive tyrant, I have to pay for the 2 pairs of Monstrous scything talons (41 points) and then replace both sets with ranged weapon say four deathspitters with slimer magots (40 pts). Artificially inflating the Tyrants points by 41 points? I do believe that is wrong. Why would anyone swap weapons if you had to pay the price of the weapon you're swapping out?

Yes.  You cannot replace something you don't have.  You pay the points for base equipment.  You replace what it says you're allowed to replace at the cost for the new thing.  That is how it works.  Base equipment is included in their "model+gear price" and they made it modular so they can change the "base price" in future stuff.

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6 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Yes.  You cannot replace something you don't have.  You pay the points for base equipment.  You replace what it says you're allowed to replace at the cost for the new thing.  That is how it works.  Base equipment is included in their "model+gear price" and they made it modular so they can change the "base price" in future stuff.

You can keep saying it, and I think we understand your point. That being said, I don't think we agree with it.

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7 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Yes.  You cannot replace something you don't have.  You pay the points for base equipment.  You replace what it says you're allowed to replace at the cost for the new thing.  That is how it works.  Base equipment is included in their "model+gear price" and they made it modular so they can change the "base price" in future stuff.

If that's true, then the squad leader for DE wracks unable to take any of the ranged weapons the book says he can take. The Tools of Torment list says you may replace a ranged weapon with a weapon from the list. The acothyst doesn't come with a ranged weapon so there's nothing to replace.

Does he have access to the list, but no way to obtain anything on it?

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14 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

well if you show up with a list that isnt properly pointed, its going to be an issue.

 

2 minutes ago, PumpkinHead said:

Your view of properly pointed seems to differ from mine. If we play, who is to say which list is pointed correctly?  Also, if you run a tournament, you may need to spell out how you expect to see peoples lists pointed out so there is no confusion.

I hate to invoke a logical fallacy, but is there anyone else that thinks the way Hanaur does on this one? I haven't seen anyone else suggest that method.

And I guess it's good that I don't make it up to your area too much, LH.

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Went back and re-read the thread. I gotcha now. I'm in the boat where you only need to pay for what the model actually has. Even if I paid for the scything talons first, when I replaced them, I'd take off the points for the talons as I no longer have them, and then add on the replacement cost. If you remove a weapon from a model, why would you not remove the cost? That seems silly.

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8 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Yes.  You cannot replace something you don't have.  You pay the points for base equipment.  You replace what it says you're allowed to replace at the cost for the new thing.  That is how it works.  Base equipment is included in their "model+gear price" and they made it modular so they can change the "base price" in future stuff.

At the top of the Points Value section it says:

"Simply add together the points costs of all your models and the wargear they are equipped with to determine your army's total points value."

No Monsterous Scything Talons, no 41 points.  You can't be charge for wargear you don't have.

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6 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

I'm a bit confused. I must have missed the differences. After looking at the costs for the gear, it appears to me that when you use points, you pay the points for each model in the unit, and then you pay the points for the gear for each model.

So for example, you pay for the ork boy, then you pay for the choppa and then the slugga. By the way the points are laid out, it doesn't make sense that the cost for the model itself includes all the gear.

Is that what is up for debate here?

Boyz are a bad example since slugga / choppa is free.

Let's use 5 Tankbustas as an example:

My method:

5 Tankbustas - 25

3 Rokkit Launchas (Base equipment) - 36

2 Tank Hammers - 20

 

Total - 81

 

Hanaur's Method:

5 Tankbustas - 25

5 Rokkit Launchas (Base equipment) - 60

2 Tank Hammers - 20

Total - 105

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20 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

So the replace is for power level... in points you only pay for the wargear the model is equipped with, if it has been replaced you are no longer equipped with it (extrapolation) and don't pay points... codex xenos pg 130 but it says pay points for equipped stuff under every faction heading I've looked at. 

This seemed to get lost a bit... yes the equipment is replaced so you had it at one time but when paying points you only pay for equipment you are equipped with; this edition is much clearer with wording.  Allot of our issues are coming from out thinking the new systems and applying our experience of GW intent to a system that is much closer written to what they intended than ever before and mixing two separate systems. 

A replaced weapon is not an equipped weapon and therefore no points spent. 

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50 minutes ago, PumpkinHead said:

Your view of properly pointed seems to differ from mine. If we play, who is to say which list is pointed correctly?  Also, if you run a tournament, you may need to spell out how you expect to see peoples lists pointed out so there is no confusion.

I'm surprised this is even coming up.  It says clearly that X comes with Y and Z.  Comes that way.  And so you pay accordingly.  

 

It says you may then Replace Y with a Q for the points shown.  So you do that.

This isn't complicated.  All they've done is disassembled the parts so that the base model and how it comes came change in price in a modular way.

 

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1 minute ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I'm surprised this is even coming up.  It says clearly that X comes with Y and Z.  Comes that way.  And so you pay accordingly.  

 

It says you may then Replace Y with a Q for the points shown.  So you do that.

This isn't complicated.  All they've done is disassembled the parts so that the base model and how it comes came change in price in a modular way.

 

 And above I have a different logical way of looking at it. 

 

An illegal one according to you. 

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9 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Yeah, I had to reread the thread. I don't see why Hanaur isn't subtracting the costs of the rokkits that are being removed. Those models no longer count as having rokkits.

Because nowhere does it tell you to do that.  That is a construct your mind created because you like how that ends better.  But it doent tell you to do that.

It tells you how the base model comes.  It tells you what on that base model can change.  Just like it always has.

Nothing changed other than that they dissassembled the base models component costs so that they could change the base model later.  That's all they've done.  The instructions dont say "subtract the X you already have from the costr of Y which you are replacing it with to get youur final cost".  Thats literally NOT said anywhere.  Someone somewhere said "Im sure thats how they MEANT it" and lots of people who didnt want to pay more agreed.

If you can show me where it tells you to do these mental gymnastics to come to this conclusion I'll re-read it.  But otherwise, every entry reads very simply that the unit comes s certain way with with certain equipment.  If you want ot change it, it tells you the cost to do so.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Because nowhere does it tell you to do that.  That is a construct your mind created because you like how that ends better.  But it doent tell you to do that.

It tells you how the base model comes.  It tells you what on that base model can change.  Just like it always has.

Nothing changed other than that they dissassembled the base models component costs so that they could change the base model later.  That's all they've done.  The instructions dont say "subtract the X you already have from the costr of Y which you are replacing it with to get youur final cost".  Thats literally NOT said anywhere.  Someone somewhere said "Im sure thats how they MEANT it" and lots of people who didnt want to pay more agreed.

If you can show me where it tells you to do these mental gymnastics to come to this conclusion I'll re-read it.  But otherwise, every entry reads very simply that the unit comes s certain way with with certain equipment.  If you want ot change it, it tells you the cost to do so.

 It does not tell you to add equipment costs that you don't currently have either... you are doing more than the book tells you we are suggesting doing what points says... look at model what does it have not what did it have that is no longer there...

 

Pg 130 ordo xenos your logic is also the problem with the different squad sizes... I feel it was intentional matched play points are different than power level points...

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3 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

The book doesn't tell me to breathe when playing, but guess what?

It affirmatively DOES tell you however to do what I am saying.  So that's irrelevant.  Any list made ignoring the base models cost before changes is illegal.

Show me otherwise so I can spend less but until you can...

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Just now, Brother Glacius said:

 

Are those rokkits that were replaced by the tank hammers in the army? No. therefore you don't pay points for them.

Doesnt matter.  the text c;lear;ly says they DO have a rokkit and the rules say you DO have to pay for the Rokkit.  

Then it says two of them can REPLACE the Rokkit with the Tank Hammer for 10 points each.  Folllow the instructions.  Pay the ten points and you're golden.

Yes.  The Tank Hammers do add ten points.  Like...the instructions say.

 

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10 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

It affirmatively DOES tell you however to do what I am saying.  So that's irrelevant.  Any list made ignoring the base models cost before changes is illegal.

Show me otherwise so I can spend less but until you can...

Fyi you are the one doing mental gymnastics... my opinion is you need to quit mixing systems... pay for the model them recalculate its cost with new equipment... I write list pay points for what they have not what they had but no longer have...no subtraction, points gives model sans gear pay those points,  then find gear model has pay points for that not gear it replaced plus gear it has,  just gear it has all of it...

 

Final verdict? Vonvilkee never travel to Lord ran events impasse... course I always felt the ambassador ever while a cool concept was clique like wanted to go but found it overwhelming to apply to go so never did... now this aggressive you are doing it wrong and will be kicked out of my events stance, while ignoring my page references and debating with others instead. 

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Hanaur is clearly wrong on this.

you add up the points of the weapons in your army, not the weapons that were replaced.

the rockets get replaced with tankhammers so they are no longer in your army so you don't add it up.

A rule has been posted that this method is correct. where is you rule, Hanaur?

 

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13 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Are those rokkits that were replaced by the tank hammers in the army? No. therefore you don't pay points for them.

rules2.jpg

This should end the debate. It doesn't even reference the models with the weapons. You can count them completely separately. Add up all the models in the army and their costs. Then add up all the weapons IN your army. Not weapons that previously were in your army. Not weapons that could have been in your army.

Just weapons that are actually currently in it. 

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