5 things you learned so far 40k 8th

[pretre]

Yeah, I imagine that most events aren't going to allow the under-strength option.

[JMGraham]

2 minutes ago, pretre said:

Yeah, I imagine that most events aren't going to allow the under-strength option.

I hope so! That events won't allow them, that is.

[Lyraeus]

4 hours ago, fluger said:

Yeah, that's the ticket.  S14 wounds everything on 3s and you're wounding everything up to T7 on 2s. 

I wouldn't use it in everything. Tanks sure infantry I would use Scything Talons 

[WestRider]

32 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

I wouldn't use it in everything. Tanks sure infantry I would use Scything Talons 

I think that's actually what they were trying for. Make CombatFexen a bit more diverse, rather than the previous versions where some stripped down variant was the best option against everything. CrusherFex with a gun of some kind is actually pretty viable now. Glad I have several of mine magnetized :D

[fluger]

47 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

I wouldn't use it in everything. Tanks sure infantry I would use Scything Talons 

I don't think re-rolling 1s is as good as wounding on 2s vs 3s against T4.  

 

Scy Tal vs T4 is a 38.9% chance of wounding per attack

Crush Claw vs T4 is a 41.7% chance of wounding per attack

[WestRider]

16 minutes ago, fluger said:

I don't think re-rolling 1s is as good as wounding on 2s vs 3s against T4.  

 

Scy Tal vs T4 is a 38.9% chance of wounding per attack

Crush Claw vs T4 is a 41.7% chance of wounding per attack

Two pairs of ScyTals gives you an extra Attack, too. And the Crushing Claws are -1 to Hit.

I get an expected value of 35/18 Wounds for a dual ScyTal Fex against T4-6, vs. 20/18 on the same range for a Crushing Claw Fex.

[fluger]

Missed the -1 to hit!  

[Munkie]

6 hours ago, JMGraham said:

I hope so! That events won't allow them, that is.

It makes Dark Eldar HQs really hard to transport, unfortunately. There are only 2 ways to get a transport filled and include an HQ in the list:

-Venom stuffed with 5 characters which is hideously expensive.

-Raider with 4 Grotesques (the only transportable unit consisting of less than 5 models) and 2 characters.

Harlequin venom equivalents based on the same chassis can transport 6, and Eldar have multiple autarchs just based on which method of flight they prefer. Have no archons realized the usefulness of scourge wings? Has no succubus made her name decapitating foes with her reaver jetbike? No haemonculus has ever considered repulsor technology has uses beyond appearing ominous?

The only option is giving a succubus the +2 movement drug and what kind of message does that send, GW?

Why is nobody thinking of the children???

But I agree, less-than squads probably shouldn't be allowed.

[InfestedKerrigan]

6 hours ago, JMGraham said:

Awesome, thanks!

Battle-Forged armies allow you to take under-strength units in matched play, paying only for the cost of the models and weapons included, and provided you only have one of that unit type. Under-strength units still take up the force org slot. While I know, as intended, this is just supposed to get folks playing games with what they've got, I could see it being abused to be able to fit in force org charts they wouldn't otherwise be able to get. For example, just taking inexpensive single models to fill out a battalion (or whatever the one with tons of command points is called).

I thought you paid full price for the minimum sized squad, but field the number of models you have. Eg paying for 5, but running the 3 you have.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Yeah, you're doing it wrong. Pg 242

[JMGraham]

Couple of questions:

Does within 3" mean completely or partially within? I'm wondering in regards to disembarking from transports.

Does a unit in a transport that is destroyed get to benefit from The Ynnari Strength from Death ability? Models disembark from transports when they are destroyed, before the model is removed.  Since they are deployed on the board before the transport I'd removed, do they get the soul burst? I suspect not, but it never hurts to ask.

[WestRider]

I don't know about the second, but for the first, there's a bit toward the start of the Core Rules that says that distances are always measured from the closest point of one thing to the closest point of the other. So yeah, just need a sliver of the base within 3" of the Transport.

[Kremmet]

For transports, it's within and not completely within so you just need some amount of base in that area to deploy. As for the second question, the transport must actually be destroyed before the unit disembarks.

Quote

If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked within it immediately disembark...before the transport model is removed...

Strength from Death triggers immediately upon destruction which opens some wiggle room in timing as they're both immediate. Until there's a clear timing chart released it's more of a gray area although I'd err on the side of caution for now as it's easier to adjust to a boon than to something being taken away.

[Ish]

It's just good sportsmanship to assume that an ambiguously worded rule should be interpreted in the way least advantageous to oneself as possible.

[VonVilkee]

13 hours ago, JMGraham said:

Couple of questions:

Does within 3" mean completely or partially within? I'm wondering in regards to disembarking from transports.

Does a unit in a transport that is destroyed get to benefit from The Ynnari Strength from Death ability? Models disembark from transports when they are destroyed, before the model is removed.  Since they are deployed on the board before the transport I'd removed, do they get the soul burst? I suspect not, but it never hurts to ask.

Okay I know I'm pedantic sometimes but is the wording of strength from death destroyed or removed to trigger?

 

I believe it is destroyed and this series of events is such... transport destroyed, check range for rule, unit is still inside not in range, place models as they can only disembark when the transport is destroyed (before it ous removed) or before the transport moves. 

Course if it is when the dread unit is removed then go for it...

[Brother Glacius]

Do vehicles have souls?

[Swan-of-War]

8 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Do vehicles have souls?

 

Soul Train says hellz yasss

[fluger]

6 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Do vehicles have souls?

 

01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01101101 01100001 01100011 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100101 00100000 01110011 01110000 01101001 01110010 01101001 01110100 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101000 01101111 01101100 01111001 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 01110100 01101001 01100011 00100000 01110011 01100011 01110101 01101101 00100001 00100000 00100000 01000001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110000 01110010 01100001 01101001 01110011 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01101111 01101101 01101110 01101001 01110011 01110011 01101001 01100001 01101000 00100001 

 

 

[WestRider]

27 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Do vehicles have souls?

How else would they get to Silicon Heaven?

[InfestedKerrigan]

1 hour ago, Brother Glacius said:

Do vehicles have souls?

Most have tread.

[JMGraham]

7 hours ago, Ish said:

It's just good sportsmanship to assume that an ambiguously worded rule should be interpreted in the way least advantageous to oneself as possible.

I agree whole-heartedly!

[JMGraham]

3 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

Okay I know I'm pedantic sometimes but is the wording of strength from death destroyed or removed to trigger?

When a unit within 7" is "completely destroyed".

[VonVilkee]

1 hour ago, JMGraham said:

When a unit within 7" is "completely destroyed".

So in my mind it already destroyed while the unit is off table. Removal is not destroyed after destruction immediately disembark means destruction already happened... Removal is just final step of destruction unit was already destroyed to start chain. 

[Kremmet]

11 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

So in my mind it already destroyed while the unit is off table. Removal is not destroyed after destruction immediately disembark means destruction already happened... Removal is just final step of destruction unit was already destroyed to start chain. 

Unfortunately both abilities do not trigger until after the vehicle is destroyed so this logic doesn't work. The only timing we have been given by GW is that effects which say immediately trigger before effects that don't and, upon rereading the skills in question, SfD doesn't actually say immediately for the resolution of the ability firing and so would fire after you place the unit.

With immediately being a trigger that happens before the "...each time a unit is completely destroyed..." clause of Strength from Death that does give a strong argument for SfD firing from a transport blowing up.

The timing chart would be: 

1. Vehicle is Destroyed.
2. Place the embarked units.
3. Trigger Strength from Death on any applicable units.
4. Remove transport.

Those last two are interchangeable as they have the same timing as of right now. If an erratum is released about needing to fully resolve a rule before moving onto the next one (or if that rule already exists somewhere and I'm not remembering it) then you'd remove the transport before firing Strength from Death. The fact that the transport is removed is irrelevant to the discussion about SfD with the exception of LoS issues that might occur.

[VonVilkee]

7 hours ago, Kremmet said:

Unfortunately both abilities do not trigger until after the vehicle is destroyed so this logic doesn't work. The only timing we have been given by GW is that effects which say immediately trigger before effects that don't and, upon rereading the skills in question, SfD doesn't actually say immediately for the resolution of the ability firing and so would fire after you place the unit.

With immediately being a trigger that happens before the "...each time a unit is completely destroyed..." clause of Strength from Death that does give a strong argument for SfD firing from a transport blowing up.

The timing chart would be: 

1. Vehicle is Destroyed.
2. Place the embarked units.
3. Trigger Strength from Death on any applicable units.
4. Remove transport.

Those last two are interchangeable as they have the same timing as of right now. If an erratum is released about needing to fully resolve a rule before moving onto the next one (or if that rule already exists somewhere and I'm not remembering it) then you'd remove the transport before firing Strength from Death. The fact that the transport is removed is irrelevant to the discussion about SfD with the exception of LoS issues that might occur.

But the embarked unit is not within 7 " when it is destroyed and with them happening simultaneously you would do both things when destroyed measure and deploy. The transported unit is not on the table when it is destroyed. It immediately goes to the table when destroyed and without a rules clause saying you can decide the order of simultaneous things they actually happen simultaneously and you can not use the rule as the unit is embarked. 

 

If there was some reference to the removal piece I'd give you the use the strength from death... but you are unable to convince me that the transported unit is able to use rules at the moment of destruction they are not on the table... they immediately disembark and after this are able to act normally. The measure for strength and disembark happen simultaneously but the gaining of normal acting acting happens after. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by VonVilkee
Phone mistype