Coping with Mines

[Guest]

At GG today, there was a Relthoza player commenting about the lack of defenses against mines due to his cloaking heavy theme.

 

I looked into it. As I read it, yeah, there is no direct defense against mines. There are some interesting options against mines.

 

First, only when a model "...during it's movement, comes within 4" of an enemy mine marker...". As I read it, a ship/squadron that begins it's turn within 4" of an enemy mine marker could declare full stop for their movement and the mine wouldn't trigger until they moved or until it triggered from another effect.

 

Second, "Shunt" movement specifically ignores mines. This is a common ability in the Relthoza.

 

Third, placing mines requires room for the opponent's ships to move. A stationary ship can only add mines to it's rear Aft, while a moving ship can place them along it's trail. Given that no opponent has a ship that can occupy the space of your base, you could potentially prevent mine placement (or movement in general) by limiting the legal movement for his model. Critical effects against Propulsion would aid this tactic. He could still place them in his rear aft, but they have to be placed within 4", so at best you can at least catch him in the blast too.

 

Beyond those three, it's all about detonating them intentionally with minimal damage. A frigate fleet could sacrifice a member, while the rest of it's squadron remains at full stop, to detonate mines beyond 4" of your starting location. Likewise a very durable ship could just try to ignore the damage.

 

I will also note that the mine stat really doesn't go very high, it's impressive, no question. Using only the free PDFs for factions, MN is typically maxed at 8, including linked fire. Specifically:

 

Relthoza 8, Directorate 8, Dindrenzi 8, Zenian League 8, Aquan 10, Sorylian ZERO, Terran Alliance 7, Alliance of Kurak 8.

 

Mathhammer is tough with those exploding die, but basically looking at dead frigates without much effort at the 8 or 10 die level. I will note that frigates boast some of the highest speeds, so keeping them away from mines, and mine laying ships, should be feasible. I think the prime target for mines is wreckless tier 3 ships, plus dealing partial damage to tier 2. At tier 1, damage is probably very minimal.

 

One more note is that linking mines requires the mine to be placed in a location where all involved ships could place within 4" of their aft. This does mean that obtaining those high mine values may be unreliable for all but the most expensive mine laying vessels.

 

Anyway, hope this helped.

[Stoobert]

I find mines annoying but I hope/trust that now that we know the rules (mines can be placed each turn) we will adapt to this threat and become less upset about it.   It's part of the game as they tested it so I'm trying to have a little faith that mines aren't "broken as hell".

 

Your assessment is generally correct, except for the 'full stop' part.  Full stop comes in the secondary movement phase after you've already moved 1/2" minimum movement.

[Guest]

I find mines annoying but I hope/trust that now that we know the rules (mines can be placed each turn) we will adapt to this threat and become less upset about it.   It's part of the game as they tested it so I'm trying to have a little faith that mines aren't "broken as hell".

 

Your assessment is generally correct, except for the 'full stop' part.  Full stop comes in the secondary movement phase after you've already moved 1/2" minimum movement.

Hmm... Well I did read that you can deploy at full stop. So does the full stop bit remain true if the model was fully stopped the activation prior to the mine placement?

[Guest]

Hmmm...did some more looking. It looks like ship explosions can't affect mines (no effect from reactor overload as they aren't models or SRS). It would be very reasonable to rule that ship overloads would trigger mines, but I can't find it in the rules.

 

Another one, though not technically in rules, is the moving terrain rule. They do suggest against it for learning games, but you could have the mines float a random direction d6" at the end of each round, like other terrain, which would make them more dangerous for both sides. This isn't part of the mine rules, but it would be a very reasonable modification.

 

Being able to shoot the mines seems like it would create more issues than it solved, as I can totally picture placing a mine, then detonating it in the same activation with a turret or aft weapon.

 

Still, I see a few obvious defenses against mines, but I think it ultimately depends on the faction.

 

Those Drindrenzi should just form a block by a table edge and stay at full stop most of the game. This really isn't much of a change in tactics, as I think that faction is very deliberately designed around this tactic. If the enemy get's around the fore, the Drindrenzi are pretty screwed, especially if they reach aft.

 

The Relthoza should be able to shunt through most minefields, especially when their shunt move allows them to change their facing without complicated turn movement.

 

My directorate will likely do different things, depending on the ship. We've got ships with shields, and those can basically endure the mines, not as well as the terrans with their shield generators, but good enough. We can also evade the mines my simply not  getting too close, which is especially feasible with the directorate's common use of turret weapons and relatively low ship speed. And we could also just go full stop, which really doesn't impair us too much, given our turret weapons, though I'd prefer to stay mobile.

 

I suppose I could include some Kedorian "mine diffusing" allies, given that they have the highest shields of our faction.

 

I do think that our games are taking longer than they should and that ships aren't meant to be as durable as ours are. Between the unused moving terrain and TAC cards, plus looking for limits on weapons, we're playing a slower game than we have to.

[Theredepic]

1.) Unfortunately, A Fullstop is done in your secondary movement phase, not your Primary Movement phase, so you must move at least half of your movement as compulsory, and then put a full stop marker. This means you will either stop before the mine, or try and maneuver around it, which is probably helpful to your opponent, or plow on through, which is obviously what you opponent wants.

 

2.) A Relthozan vessel that is Shunting cannot Shunt at Full Stop, it must move in its primary movement phase (half its movement Compulsory), then perform the shunt. So you may shunt next to a mine, and not have it explode, but you will get hit next turn. This was resolved in the Errata. 

 

3.) Proximity Vectoring is the rules version of "shlubbing" an overlapping bases situation. More often than not, if you are going to wind up on an oppossing players base and you MUST move at least your compulsory movement, than your ship will probably be bumped behind the enemy vessel, which is exactly what you need to lay a good minefield.

 

 

All that being said and having played another game with Stew using Mines, they are just something that you need to watch out for, or use very much to your advantage.

 

I laid two 8AD strong mine clusters on top of Stews battlecarrier and battleship, when the lines came together, and they did alot of collateral damage to his Capital accompaniments, and both large capital ships. However, i suppose thats just part of the game, and part of the pts makeup for each ship.

 

Personally, i think support shuttles should be used to try and lessen minefields. I dont think its really OP, since most folks don't use Support Shuttles anyway, and if they do, they are in low token counts. 

[Guest]

1.) Unfortunately, A Fullstop is done in your secondary movement phase, not your Primary Movement phase, so you must move at least half of your movement as compulsory, and then put a full stop marker. This means you will either stop before the mine, or try and maneuver around it, which is probably helpful to your opponent, or plow on through, which is obviously what you opponent wants.

 

2.) A Relthozan vessel that is Shunting cannot Shunt at Full Stop, it must move in its primary movement phase (half its movement Compulsory), then perform the shunt. So you may shunt next to a mine, and not have it explode, but you will get hit next turn. This was resolved in the Errata. 

 

3.) Proximity Vectoring is the rules version of "shlubbing" an overlapping bases situation. More often than not, if you are going to wind up on an oppossing players base and you MUST move at least your compulsory movement, than your ship will probably be bumped behind the enemy vessel, which is exactly what you need to lay a good minefield.

 

 

All that being said and having played another game with Stew using Mines, they are just something that you need to watch out for, or use very much to your advantage.

 

I laid two 8AD strong mine clusters on top of Stews battlecarrier and battleship, when the lines came together, and they did alot of collateral damage to his Capital accompaniments, and both large capital ships. However, i suppose thats just part of the game, and part of the pts makeup for each ship.

 

Personally, i think support shuttles should be used to try and lessen minefields. I dont think its really OP, since most folks don't use Support Shuttles anyway, and if they do, they are in low token counts. 

1: Positive that you can deploy in full stop.

 

Yeah, if the opponent places a mine in front and you decide, on the spot, to stop, you still have to move the extra movement. You could anticipate his mine use and full stop an activation before he uses the mines.

 

2: Thanks for the update. I've only skimmed the erratta.

 

3: hmm...I'll have to look hard at this one.

[Theredepic]

Yes, you can deploy at Full stop (I do this all the time), thought that really only helps mine-wise when they lay a minefield in front of you before the game begins. Even then, those minefields have to be laid at least 8" away from you, which gives ample time to evade them.

 

For my first point above, I was referring to Mines laid mid-battle (Which is 95% of the time Mines really come into play).

[Guest]

Yes, you can deploy at Full stop (I do this all the time), thought that really only helps mine-wise when they lay a minefield in front of you before the game begins. Even then, those minefields have to be laid at least 8" away from you, which gives ample time to evade them.

 

For my first point above, I was referring to Mines laid mid-battle (Which is 95% of the time Mines really come into play).

Hmm... Was thinking more about the drindrenzi, which could certainly choose to not move all game and not be dramatically impaired...

[jesselowe]

Hmm... Was thinking more about the drindrenzi, which could certainly choose to not move all game and not be dramatically impaired...

 

Only if the opponent cooperates by staying in the firing lanes. In the game we played, I think it'd have been quite possible to keep half your fleet concealed during any one turn. Between that and cloaking, I'd have had the devil of a time trying to whittle you down before you got in under my guns. By not maneuvering, I think a player cedes the initiative to his opponent...

[Guest]

Only if the opponent cooperates by staying in the firing lanes. In the game we played, I think it'd have been quite possible to keep half your fleet concealed during any one turn. Between that and cloaking, I'd have had the devil of a time trying to whittle you down before you got in under my guns. By not maneuvering, I think a player cedes the initiative to his opponent...

Been looking into that, actually. I think much of the drindrenzi strategy revolves around not moving, or just moving enough to turn a fixed weapon. You've also got those destroyers which can turn at full stop. I think your big ships don't move much, you just set up an awesome fire lane on one end of the board and use your smaller ships to force the enemy in. You've got kinetic weapons, which have 12" range bands, so you have great range. Those kinetic weapons get a bonus on the critical effect table.

 

As for the fire lanes, in our game, most of the LOS blocking terrain was found on the side of the table that we did most of our moving into. My second game against stewart was mostly in the section with lots of gas nebula.

 

In our game, you came to me as I came to you, which worked great for me because my army doesn't care which are your in. I've got starboard/port torps and turret beams on most ships. Your army is much weaker when it isn't facing me, so anything you can do to keep me in that front fore (like being at full stop at long range all game) will greatly help your army. I also think your army would have been much more effective if you had bunched up your ships into one general area and facing, rather than spreading them out for a flanking move.

 

Oh, my second game was Stewart, who pointed out that models can link fire with themselves. So you've got a lot of vehicles that have duplicate fore weapons which should be able to link with themselves. Mind you, most of these aren't starter box ships. Another thing is that you can link fire with weapons of different types, you just don't benefit from the type anymore. I don't think it works direct and indirect, but should work for kinetic and primary, for example. Your dreadnought is just amazing in this respect, having duplicate torpedos and duplicate kinetic weapons, (9 AD kinetic and 10 in torps if linking at 48" range).

 

I'm not criticizing you, as it was a learning game for sure. You've actually got me tempted to take Drindrenzi allies...

 

As for my failings, looks like boarding actions are once per game only, which I didn't get game 1. I also was having issues not remembering that cloaked ships have half attack dice - not cheating, but I think I only remembered 75% of the time.

 

As for you, if you ever want allies, I think the Works Raptor Torpedo Cruisers would be amazing for your army. The ships each feature 6 torps with "any" arc, field-able in squadrons of 2-4. they are pretty cheap (for cruisers) and pretty weak, but they'd help against enemies that refuse to get in your fire lane. Again, another unit that would work great at full stop.

[Theredepic]

Most scenarios will not allow you to stay put since they also have various victory conditions to satisfy. Also, some scenarios will have your fleet arrive in a fragmented fashion, leaving some of your ships int he open and alone. Moving from full stop will take you at least a turn, sometimes you cant afford to lay back. All depends on the scenario. 

[Guest]

Most scenarios will not allow you to stay put since they also have various victory conditions to satisfy. Also, some scenarios will have your fleet arrive in a fragmented fashion, leaving some of your ships int he open and alone. Moving from full stop will take you at least a turn, sometimes you cant afford to lay back. All depends on the scenario. 

I hear you. I am talking about ideal conditions, so yeah, they are subject to change.

[jesselowe]

 

As for you, if you ever want allies, I think the Works Raptor Torpedo Cruisers would be amazing for your army. The ships each feature 6 torps with "any" arc, field-able in squadrons of 2-4. they are pretty cheap (for cruisers) and pretty weak, but they'd help against enemies that refuse to get in your fire lane. Again, another unit that would work great at full stop.

 

Yes, I'm very much considering that. Something to deal with all the accursed cloaky ships I keep running into...

[Guest]

Yes, I'm very much considering that. Something to deal with all the accursed cloaky ships I keep running into...

Not to cause more worry, but I am kinda wondering how viable torps will be once players start fielding more SRS tokens. I our game I didn't take any, but I can field them (especially with allies) to dramatically increase the PD for the ships around me.

 

Drawback to increased SRS tokens is that they disappear if their carrier dies. This means less actual ships on the table.

 

I like that this game has no easy solutions, really makes me think.

 

Anyway, for drindenzi, thinking that your army probably functions in formation, sort of a phalanx, where if ships do pass along side, they get spammed by gun racks and then mined as then pass to the other. Most of your ships really aren't very impressive on the sides and rear, but put them together and I'd be nervous. I will note that those drindenzi corvettes are pretty impressive for their points, especially at full strength with their pack hunters MAR.

 

My directorate, on the other hand, seems more opportunistic, probably adjusting our tactics to the individual moment, rather than a standard tactic for an entire army. If anything, our special rule access lends itself towards victory through elimination of the opponent's crew, rather than hull points.

 

In general, one thing I did notice last week, was that having more squadrons than the enemy permitted for advantages in the turn structure, while having bigger units presented stronger weaponry due to linking. In example of the former, being able to move and fire several units before the opponent can react allows me to better manipulate them due to their turn limits - often via planting mines or setting up a next turn fire lane should they move that direction.

[CaptainA]

I kinda think we are doing mines wrong.

 

The Minefield MAR states that you must put the mine within 12" of the center line of the board. That is going to put the mine 12" away from the board edge. Most deployments are 8" in so only if you put your ships right on the line will the mine be so close that it blows when it is activated.

 

Am I right?

[Theredepic]

I kinda think we are doing mines wrong.

 

The Minefield MAR states that you must put the mine within 12" of the center line of the board. That is going to put the mine 12" away from the board edge. Most deployments are 8" in so only if you put your ships right on the line will the mine be so close that it blows when it is activated.

 

Am I right?

That's right.

[MikhailLenin]

Aaron, Minefield and Mines are different. I think the OP is referring only to mines unless I am wrong.

[CaptainA]

Well if he is talking about deploying at full stop, then it must be minefields.

[Brother Glacius]

The title of this thread totally makes me think of some sort of medical condition. So that when you read the it, you should see it start off with something like:

 

"I got back from the doctor's office today.... I found out I've got mines..."

 

:)

[Guest]

Well if he is talking about deploying at full stop, then it must be minefields.

No, you can deploy at full stop either way. Only a moving ship will activate mines or minefields in this game. Obviously, not moving has a host of other issues, but it's an option if looking to cope with mines.