3d printers are coming along nicely.

[sergentzimm]

http://imgur.com/TQPyvlO

 

3d printed Blood Angels army. It is no where near GW standards, but it is closer than I would expect at this point. This has got to terrify GW.

 

(Note to the mods. I am aiming for a discussion on 3d printed models not sure if it belongs here so move away if necessary)

[Bosco]

That looks like decent resolution FDM (ABS/PLA filament) printing like the CubeX or Replicator desktop printer families, or perhaps an older powdered cartridge printer.  I have a Replicator 2x (or rather my business partner and I do) and after decent tuning/adjustment can make that quality ($3k new, now around $2500 about a year after we bought it).  Meanwhile, anyone with a form1 or form1+ (about $3300, resin is $150/L IIRC) can print in near perfect GW product resolution.  The print envelope/volume is definitely smaller than the filament printers, but the resolution is absolutely worth it; I'd order one today if I weren't still impersonating a pseudo-responsible adult with bills to pay.

 

*EDIT*
A major factor in my own testing has been the quality/accuracy of the models being printed.  The majority of the chunky/ugly prints you saw when these first came out were largely as much a result of a poorly done model as they were a product of the printer quality.  What GW really needs to be fearful of is the increasingly available 3D scanner tech which can rip off their models/components in a matter of minutes with a skilled user.

/*EDIT*

 

GW has previously mentioned working on 3D printed product in a few different channels.  Their current business models (IMO) won't adapt well to this, especially if they try and do it as single-print licensing which will inevitably get hacked and pop up on multiple download sites.  Either way, they need to get ready for it in the next 3-10 years when these machines approach individual/club prices and become pretty common in the hobby.

[dashneeb]

That's using either a very old, or low end 3-D printer.  I've seen stuff on printers that are out of the normal public's range, we're talking quarter of a million dollar printers and they're pretty awesome.

 

I don't think that GW is worried quite yet, they have bigger issues with Chinese printers making their minis or something similar to forge world, etc.

[sergentzimm]

See I view the home printer market as the biggest threat. When you can buy a $500 3d printer that can print decent models for an extra $50, why buy a $1000 army? 

 

On the other hand they have really jacked up their book costs, maybe that is their way of making sure the game gets revenue?

[Guest]

See I view the home printer market as the biggest threat. When you can buy a $500 3d printer that can print decent models for an extra $50, why buy a $1000 army? 

 

On the other hand they have really jacked up their book costs, maybe that is their way of making sure the game gets revenue?

To be fair, between used models, sales, trades and conversions, most $1000 armies can be acquired for much less than $500.

 

Big issue with the 3d printers is that if they replace the model purchasing, the ones that will hurt are the local game stores, which in turn will have a negative impact on those with 3d printers as there are less people getting into the game and less public places to play them.

[Guest]

A likely outcome is that GW will stop selling the models, and just force you to buy one-use 3d print versions of their models...I wouldn't be that surprised if this is the response that many different companies take to having their designs "stolen."

[PourSpelur]

I believe the companies the follow the iTunes format will succeed and those that don't will fail. For example, suppose I'm taking a road trip. I want albums A, B, and C. I want 3 songs from album D and a single from album E. I can pay for just what I like and when they're reasonably priced I'll happily do so. If for some reason album B is only available to buy for $34.99 I'll find it somewhere else for free. Sure, some people have a bajillion songs torrented but at the end of the day iTunes is a billion dollar beast.

 

Tl:Dr. Wanna make money on print files? Make them: Easy to use, Reasonably priced, Better quality than the competition. It's the same business plan GeeDub should have been using all along.

;)

[sergentzimm]

Oh indeed. The local stores are going to feel the pinch before GW does sadly. They will have to adapt sooner than later. Turn into half maker space and rent out the 3d printers, though that then opens you up to liability of what is printed. Messy situation.

 

I would actually pay roughly the cost of one box of models to get quality, sliced files. $35 for a nice file of GW approved sprues or models of a sm tac squad isn't out of line for me. That file could then be used to make 100 marines for the cost of electricity and spool, less than 15 for 100 models.

 

Quality rules at reasonable pricing is how gaming companies will survive. Hell give me both regular and digital for the price they are asking and I would be happy. 

 

Or you go the route of Reaper, cheap manufacturing and cheap models.

[Psilence]

The nature of the products GW produces makes them prime candidates for home/local reproduction.

 

As the technology advances to the point where qualities between store bought and home produced items are near/the same, business models will have to change, especially if the items can be printed for a fraction of retail costs.

 

The consumers thought process at that point becomes: "if I can make this product for a penny, so can the company that is charging me a dollar."

If/when the company refuses to change, the math/decision making process becomes fairly easy.

 

I agree that retailers will suffer, which is unfortunate. But, as with all other significant advances, you have to integrate them into your business (large or small) to succeed.

 

Adapt or die. /shrug.

 

Still pretty far off time wise, but on its way with this particular technology.

 

I don't think it will destroy GW or other smart retailers, but I do think it will change them. Hopefully for the better :)

[Guest]

The bigger issue regarding adapt or die, is that if local retailers are suffering, the hobby as a whole will suffer. This is because most of the hobby's supporters rely on local communities, which are largely dependent on the local stores. It may take a few years to feel any direct feedback, but you'll have a decline of new players when the local stores start hurting, this will result in a further loss of new players and further hurting local stores.

 

40k, WHFB and warmahordes are all very threatened by any game that limits the ability of players to find play spaces.

 

One possibility, often considered, is a complete swap to a digital format. Not unlike that Star Wars chess-like game from A New Hope. This would result in local stores with "virtual" play tables, as they'd likely be too expensive for the individual. Given the digital format, conversion and painting could still be accomplished, just not with physical models. This makes 3d printer solution irrelevant, as the game is no longer played with physical models. Copies still exist, but copyright infringement is easier to enforce if GW can control the "tables" required to use the game.

 

Sci-fi for now, but I think we already have the tech to do this, even if they haven't tried (I've seen some failed attempts...).

 

In general, the survival of this sort of game depends on both the ability to control copyright and to keep the players contained in their exclusive market (nerds are a market). Anything threatening the local stores, threatens the industry, as the nerds would probably not exist without the local stores.

[PourSpelur]

Pax, I see where you're coming from but I have to disagree.

Scenario 1: the FLGS goes the way of the dodo because printing your own minis at home is cheaper than buying them from the currently available sources. Your argument is "no stores, no new gamers" I counter with a question. What's one of the most common complaints by new and old players? Price. I believe lowering the barrier to entry could add a ton of new players. Maybe I'm in the minority but I didn't get into minis through a store, I saw some friends playing on a buddies kitchen table.

Scenario 2: the FLGS adapts. This is going to be natural selection on steroids. Those that embrace change and even encourage it could thrive. I could buy a pool table for my house, cues /chalk online and I have a kitchen full of food. Why is this important? Because there are plenty of successful pool halls out there. They normally rent out nicer tables by the hour, have equipment (at a significant mark up) for those that want it now and serve food/drinks. Each and every aspect mentioned I could do at home but they make money by doing it better, offering new opponents and cleaning up afterwards.

Yes I understand that pool is more popular than wargaming and by many orders of magnitude. What I am trying to say is gaming will change, but it's not going to disappear.

Probably....

Hopefully

;)

[Guest]

Pax, I see where you're coming from but I have to disagree.

Scenario 1: the FLGS goes the way of the dodo because printing your own minis at home is cheaper than buying them from the currently available sources. Your argument is "no stores, no new gamers" I counter with a question. What's one of the most common complaints by new and old players? Price. I believe lowering the barrier to entry could add a ton of new players. Maybe I'm in the minority but I didn't get into minis through a store, I saw some friends playing on a buddies kitchen table.

Scenario 2: the FLGS adapts. This is going to be natural selection on steroids. Those that embrace change and even encourage it could thrive. I could buy a pool table for my house, cues /chalk online and I have a kitchen full of food. Why is this important? Because there are plenty of successful pool halls out there. They normally rent out nicer tables by the hour, have equipment (at a significant mark up) for those that want it now and serve food/drinks. Each and every aspect mentioned I could do at home but they make money by doing it better, offering new opponents and cleaning up afterwards.

Yes I understand that pool is more popular than wargaming and by many orders of magnitude. What I am trying to say is gaming will change, but it's not going to disappear.

Probably....

Hopefully

;)

I don't think the entire FLGS will die, but if games like 40k become less profitable for the FLGS, then dedicated play space will be less common. No one questions that stores' note how much space this game requires as opposed to other games. 6'x4' for only 2 players, plus stored terrain and so forth. The game is very physically demanding for local stores. The number of players able to play does certainly affect the number of players playing. The number playing makes a game look more or less popular, and popularity most certainly affects the size of player base.

 

I completely agree that you could just start playing at people's homes. At this point, the 3d printer has no impact, as sales increasing or decreasing no longer contend with your ability to play the game. For that matter, most costs and issues become up to the household to resolve, rather than needing GW support or products. I don't think home-run games have any bearing on the market regarding this sort of game.

 

Anyway, I think if GW maintained better relations with locals stores, offered more competitive pricing, and had better customer relations, they probably wouldn't be all that impacted from 3d printers all that much. Stores don't get very good mark-ups on GW products. Players rarely see official sales and the books are always in dire need of FAQ/rules clarifications.

 

I am curious if privateer press will be hit as hard as GW will be, given their reputation for good relations.

 

In all honesty, we've got similar issues with music industry. All they'd have to do is start selling the music at the price it costs to store and transfer the digital copy and you'd eliminate music piracy entirely. GW model designs aren't much different, nor are PDFs of books, nor digitle copies of movies or video games. The cost to store and distribute has gone down dramatically with the digital releases, yet product pricing is only going up. They're greedy and that's really the core issue.

 

I'm just talking about if companies want to continue being greedy, how it will be impacted in the local area in regards to the nerd activities.

 

Quite honestly, I have been wondering, lately, how much longer this "nerd" age is going to last. Nerds are popular now, the market has caught up, end of the nerd age is soon, I'd imagine. I wonder what is next? Perhaps disco again?

[WestRider]

OK, I've seen this pop up twice in this thread, and it always comes up at some point in these discussions, and it bugs the heck out of me: People discussing pricing as if all that matters is the material cost. We're not paying for random blobs of plastic, we're paying for very well designed minis, and those designers need to make a living, too. As do the writers and artists who make the books and setting, and yes, even the marketing and accounting and management people who keep a business actually functioning so the artistic people can draw paychecks. They also need a place to work, tools to work with, all kinds of overhead. And the business owners do deserve some profit as well.

 

When you reduce it all to the price of a blob of plastic, or a spot of hard drive space and some bandwidth, you are removing the human aspect from it, and there would be none of this without human creativity and effort. Any company that only charges materials costs is quickly going to go bankrupt, and then you wouldn't have any of their product available at all, at any price.

[Psilence]

Fair point.

[WestRider]

I should probably add that I do think that GW's prices, and particularly the price of entry into the hobby, are too high, but we can't go all the way to the other extreme and still have a sustainable hobby, either.

[Guest]

OK, I've seen this pop up twice in this thread, and it always comes up at some point in these discussions, and it bugs the heck out of me: People discussing pricing as if all that matters is the material cost. We're not paying for random blobs of plastic, we're paying for very well designed minis, and those designers need to make a living, too. As do the writers and artists who make the books and setting, and yes, even the marketing and accounting and management people who keep a business actually functioning so the artistic people can draw paychecks. They also need a place to work, tools to work with, all kinds of overhead. And the business owners do deserve some profit as well.

 

When you reduce it all to the price of a blob of plastic, or a spot of hard drive space and some bandwidth, you are removing the human aspect from it, and there would be none of this without human creativity and effort. Any company that only charges materials costs is quickly going to go bankrupt, and then you wouldn't have any of their product available at all, at any price.

Sort of true. The initial product does require creation, but once created, they continue to milk it as if each produced version required the same creativity. A perfect example is the Necron Monolith, which hasn't changed the model since the codex came out in 4th (3rd?), and yet, the model is going up in cost.

 

Here's a thought, produce the initial product and charge a fee based on creation costs, then reduce the costs as the copies cease to reflect creation costs. Many businesses do this.

 

I understand copyright holders wanting to make lots of cash on their inventions, but this greed is what drives and creates sympathy for the illegal copy/reproduction of copyrighted works. If they want it to stop, simply make it just as costly to do it illegally. The sad reality, is that GW will probably pursue legal and 3rd party systems to make their products more secure, which will increase their costs, possibly more, than just decreasing the price of the models.

[WestRider]

Those price increases are probably over the top, but sales of older models also provide up front funding for newer stuff, and cover overhead. Also, and this will change somewhat if GW switches over to 3D printing, but Molds for plastic Models are ludicrously expensive, and that cost gets amortized out over years of sales, too. Manufacturing is more complex than just drop in raw materials and profit.

[spagunk]

I can see this being useful for making realm of battle compatible tiles.

[sergentzimm]

I can see this being useful for making realm of battle compatible tiles.

 

Indeed, though I think that finding a printer that big might be harder to find. 

[dashneeb]

I've found that people are really just too cynical when it comes to minis' buying.  Unless they're a fan of a company, they will complain that just about any price is "too much."  The problem is that they're not educated on what it takes to get things made.

[fluger]

Not knowing about something has never stopped me from complaining about it at length!  -The Internet

[intrizic]

Not knowing about something has never stopped me from complaining about it at length!  -The Internet

preach it brother

[Guest]

I've found that people are really just too cynical when it comes to minis' buying.  Unless they're a fan of a company, they will complain that just about any price is "too much."  The problem is that they're not educated on what it takes to get things made.

I very much agree, but at the same time, it doesn't stop me from doing it myself. Supply and demand. I say where my demand is and if the supply can't be made there, I complain. Nothing new here.

 

Suppliers should not dictate demand.

[dashneeb]

Suppliers don't dictate demand.  Suppliers dictate price, and demand is based upon how much people want it at that price, or, potentially what they can get it for.

 

For instance, case in point to another thread, a Wraithknight costs what, $120?  That's crazy.  Yes it's large, yes it's impressive. Yes, there's a lot of plastic. I bought one, but I know people who say you need 3.  People are willing to pay the ridiculous price, therefore demand is steady.  

 

However, if it never moved, or people didn't pay the outrageous prices on other models, then they'd probably be less inclined to release it at said price, or release it at all.

[intrizic]

you really don't think that price affects demand?