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OFCC 2015 Warhammer Fantasy Questions


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Sylvos,

 

I think what dkieft was asking is if the singles event is a "closed list" or "open list" event. do we have to provide our lists and all it's goodies at the beginning of the game or just verify at the end?

 

the answer was of course in the rules packet..... "This is a close list event and players will be required to disclose their list after the battle."

No, it was the punny one.

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I would agree in some aspects the comp hits a little harder than what would appear reasonable but it balances out over all with the benefits from the army.

 

As someone who hates any composition to begin with, the concept of adding composition penalties is alien to me at best.  I had a small group at first that reviewed some of the information and we came to a consensus for v.1 and v.2, on version 3 however I opened it up to discussion with various regions and metas.  What you see it the final end product from taking what was a nebulous concept and attempting to adapt it to an already existing system.

 

It should all balance out in the end, if it doesn't then that's a failing on my part but I'm not perfect (despite being ridiculously good looking, smart, witty and funny and not to mention a sexual Tyrannosaurs).

 

I'm not denying that an Undead Legions list isn't objectively more powerful than a VC or TK list on their own. My concern is more that the changes to the comp pack do essentially nothing to comp those synergies, and basically just hammer a number of predominantly VC builds adapted into UL (and I already feel that Swedish hits VC a little too hard).

 

I say this (in the interests of full disclosure) as a VC player who is looking to do just that: adapt a primarily VC list into undead legions with the addition of some of my TK toys. However, shoehorning my VC list into the UL, with literally no changes or added TK units, results in an increased comp hit of -38. And for what? It's not like I'm taking a flat hit for taking the superior UL list over the VC list. It's just my specific choices that are for some reason comped significantly harder under UL than under VC. Quite frankly what this comp pack says to me is "don't take Undead Legions."

 

I understand of course that I'm quite biased in this regard. However I feel quite strongly that the changes to the UL comp are a massive overcorrection, and ones which don't have any real connection to the actual strengths of the combined roster.

 

Might I ask what the lists were that these changes were in response to?

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I am not trying to invalidate anyone's points, so please take no offense to my semi-rant that follows.

 

It seems to me that it would have been much easier to say "No End Times".  That's what I would have done had I been the HoG, but I have not been a fan (lol) of ET from the beginning.  I thought it was silly to start with, moved on to dumb and barreled all the way to ludicrous.  I play Chaos and Elves and didn't like their changes - maybe even less than I liked some of the others.  I don't feel like ET is 'real' Warhammer as it gives me a vibe of GWs attempt to taper into a new IP-able Warhammer world/universe.  The fact that it was a good money grab for them was a nice bonus for their bottom line. 

 

I feel like that would have been less hassle and taken far less effort than what has been put forth by all those involved.  It would have been easy, and more acceptable overall I think, to have just went with SwedeComp (which I've been in favor of for some time) and the army books (not ET).  That would have been a clear line with a widely accepted and utilized comp system wherein everyone would know exactly what the scores were and the HoG/organizers would be off the hook for any discrepancies.  Not that I think SwedeComp is infallable (because it's not), but at least we would all know the deal.

 

Semi-rant off, carry on.

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I am not trying to invalidate anyone's points, so please take no offense to my semi-rant that follows.

 

It seems to me that it would have been much easier to say "No End Times".  That's what I would have done had I been the HoG, but I have not been a fan (lol) of ET from the beginning.  I thought it was silly to start with, moved on to dumb and barreled all the way to ludicrous.  I play Chaos and Elves and didn't like their changes - maybe even less than I liked some of the others.  I don't feel like ET is 'real' Warhammer as it gives me a vibe of GWs attempt to taper into a new IP-able Warhammer world/universe.  The fact that it was a good money grab for them was a nice bonus for their bottom line. 

 

I feel like that would have been less hassle and taken far less effort than what has been put forth by all those involved.  It would have been easy, and more acceptable overall I think, to have just went with SwedeComp (which I've been in favor of for some time) and the army books (not ET).  That would have been a clear line with a widely accepted and utilized comp system wherein everyone would know exactly what the scores were and the HoG/organizers would be off the hook for any discrepancies.  Not that I think SwedeComp is infallable (because it's not), but at least we would all know the deal.

 

Semi-rant off, carry on.

 

It wasn't until I saw the Host of the Eternity King that I was really turned off of the End Times. The storyline was awesome (even if the writing is very average "corporate fantasy" in terms of narrative quality), and the rules for the new units are spot-on. The rules for Nagash were...well...he's Nagash. Also 1,000 points. Also cannonable, with a ginormous base size...manageable. Then KFA came out and well...ugh....at least he's in Empire, where he doesn't really have much synergy with the rest of the army?

 

...and then Malekith, and the abomination that is the Host of the Eternity King list. Everything else is just gravy on top.

 

I really appreciate the effort that's gone into this comp pack. Swedish is complicated as balls, and getting a fair addendum that incorporates all the nuances of the combined lists is an enormous undertaking. I don't think it's there yet, in terms of actually being a "fair" extension of the comp pack. However I don't think it's ever really going to be, and honestly in the spirit of this event I don't feel like it needs to be perfect.

 

I can appreciate too why others don't like End Times. However we ARE in the End Times, and I think it would be remiss if we didn't take at least a few opportunities to really run with that. As much as uncomped End Times is unpleasant as a result of the super characters, it still saddens me somewhat that the PNW has largely shunned End Times. I feel like we're missing out.

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I am not trying to invalidate anyone's points, so please take no offense to my semi-rant that follows.

 

It seems to me that it would have been much easier to say "No End Times".  That's what I would have done had I been the HoG, but I have not been a fan (lol) of ET from the beginning.  I thought it was silly to start with, moved on to dumb and barreled all the way to ludicrous.  I play Chaos and Elves and didn't like their changes - maybe even less than I liked some of the others.  I don't feel like ET is 'real' Warhammer as it gives me a vibe of GWs attempt to taper into a new IP-able Warhammer world/universe.  The fact that it was a good money grab for them was a nice bonus for their bottom line. 

 

I feel like that would have been less hassle and taken far less effort than what has been put forth by all those involved.  It would have been easy, and more acceptable overall I think, to have just went with SwedeComp (which I've been in favor of for some time) and the army books (not ET).  That would have been a clear line with a widely accepted and utilized comp system wherein everyone would know exactly what the scores were and the HoG/organizers would be off the hook for any discrepancies.  Not that I think SwedeComp is infallable (because it's not), but at least we would all know the deal.

 

Semi-rant off, carry on.

 

So I sat and though long and hard about including or excluding End Times.  The final decision was determined when I looked at the game and realized that the rules being implemented in these end times books were changing the core rules of the game.  The changes more than likely would herald 9th edition rules being slowly added such as combined stat profiles, formations, the concept of fantasy unbound, etc...  I see the game moving towards what 40k has done which is absolutely brilliant - the formation system with core/command/auxiliary groups.  The scenarios I have written and the event stipulations for team comp should ensure a balanced and enjoyable environment.
 
I've spent a lot of time evaluating the End TImes units, formations and characters.  If many of you notice in v.2 of the addendum, I had formations included.  I have been collecting data and reports from several regions for the last few months in regards to how End Times units do in not only tournament play but casual play.  OFCC forms a hybrid of the two where you have a tournament that brings out the casual players and hobbyests.  Reading battle reports, looking at data sets reporting how many models were summoned or how many wounds specific models did in combat, how many wounds were required to bring down X character, how X formation absolutely annihilated an army with a 10 swede rating, how X army did in specific events and what their opponents brought and rated, etc...  When I made version 3 of the addendum I took out formations as they were too hard to properly comp and have a playable list within the 8-20 range.
 
I actually spent more time reviewing this data than I do my biennial budget for the State.  
 
This is not a perfect system, as I said before this is slotting a nebulous meta into a pre-existing mold.  Just the other day I received feedback which was both meaningful and well thought out that will change the method in which a specific Legion was comped and will have a very quick change which will be done today or tomorrow for the "final" version of the addendum.  The contributor provided even better feedback than the 18 people that I had used for evaluation and comments.
 
This will be the last event for 8th edition in the Pacific Northwest (for now).  Games Workshop has effectively destroyed the world.  9th Edition will more than likely be a set in a new IP completely controlled by Games Workshop.  We will more than likely see Factions containing multiple armies where formations may be taken to mix and match these "alliances" and who knows maybe we'll see a reduction in model count to provide new players an actually affordable entry point into the game.  This game in it's current form is dying.  You have an ageing player base that only buy "the new hotness" in Fantasy.  40k has and will always be more exciting because it requires less models and the army composition is smooth and easy.  Do I know what's coming down the pipe in 9th? No.  Can I speculate and look awesome doing it? Yes.
 
So I chose to do End Times for this OFCC because of the following criteria:
1.  This is OFCC, people know to bring fun lists to have a great time playing 5 games. 
2.  People demanded Swedish for OFCC this year because they like to foster the illusion of control over their environment, fair play and a perceived balance.
3.  The lore of the End Times made me realize many characters I've enjoyed playing with and reading about for decades are going away - I wanted to give them a final hurrah.
4.  I wanted OFCC to be different than the other events in the region.  If you wanted to play in a traditional swedish event there are now a dozen of them in the region.  OFCC is unique.
5.  I was willing to spend time developing an addendum to use with Swedish Comp in order to provide access to End Times options that players really, really wanted.  This was a time sink that I knowingly entered into in order to provide some form of balance to the new units and armies.
6.  I am not and never will be interested in telling someone that they can not bring their toys to a game.  Seeing players delight in assembling their Nagash models, the gleam of joy as they giggle over their Putred Blight Kings, the ecstasy that Khorne players showed over the new Bloodthirsters (and I will add that was disturbing) sealed the deal that this event is and will forever be the requiem for the Hobbyest.  
 
Blindly deciding that an entire ruleset or product set does not exist to me is ludicrous.  Right now, this is Warhammer Fantasy.  They blew up the freaking moon man.  When End Times came out and people saw the Undead Legion, I saw something I had not seen in many, many months - excitement about the hobby.  As Glottkin and Khaine rolled out I saw the same excitement - new armies and new options.  Were these balanced?  Mmm....not without help!  Are the characters really powerful? Absolutely.  Are they killable by mundane means.  Yep.  Do people know how to deal with them properly?  Not really because the people have gone out of their way to shun this entire ruleset and as a result there is not a lot of anecdotal knowledge on how to deal with them.  Have I gone out of my way to ensure that if one of the super powered characters is taken that the rest of the armies are fairly weak? Yep. Why?  This is OFCC - an army of snotlings can reign supreme here.  
 
So with all of this said, if someone is still concerned about End Times at OFCC then they need to ask themselves one question.
 
Would I ever create an environment where people wouldn't have fun?   This is still OFCC, regardless of the rulepack.  The event will be wicked awesome.
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Don't get me wrong - I was never blind to the ET goal and could read the writing on the wall as well as the next guy (most of them anyway - some just put their heads in the sand).  I am not in the "the sky is falling" camp and will refrain from judging until I see the new edition for myself, just as I did for previous editions.  I'm sure there will be a number of rage quitters and hope the new edition is good and they come back (just as they always seem to).  I like the story of ET, just not the way it dramatically changes the game - at least the 8E version. 

 

 

@Sylvos - My post was in no way meant as a slight towards you.  As someone who has been involved in the process for a number of years I commend, admire and truely appreciate your efforts.  If anything my post was in defense of that, not naysaying.

 

 

I will come and play, ET or no ET.  I appreciate the OFCC for what it is.  The game of Warhammer, for a long time now, for me is about the people I play.  And the OFCC epitimizes that for me.  I love to come and hang out with seldom seen friends and Warhammer facilitates that, regardless of the ruleset.

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Don't get me wrong - I was never blind to the ET goal and could read the writing on the wall as well as the next guy (most of them anyway - some just put their heads in the sand).  I am not in the "the sky is falling" camp and will refrain from judging until I see the new edition for myself, just as I did for previous editions.  I'm sure there will be a number of rage quitters and hope the new edition is good and they come back (just as they always seem to).  I like the story of ET, just not the way it dramatically changes the game - at least the 8E version. 

 

 

@Sylvos - My post was in no way meant as a slight towards you.  As someone who has been involved in the process for a number of years I commend, admire and truely appreciate your efforts.  If anything my post was in defense of that, not naysaying.

 

 

I will come and play, ET or no ET.  I appreciate the OFCC for what it is.  The game of Warhammer, for a long time now, for me is about the people I play.  And the OFCC epitimizes that for me.  I love to come and hang out with seldom seen friends and Warhammer facilitates that, regardless of the ruleset.

 

 

Naw bro! No slight taken!  It's nothing but a heterosexual lovefest with same-sex partners!

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Well said Sylvos!  I thought your post was excellent in that you gave real insight into the work you have put into the rule pack this year for the Fantasy event.  I am sure all those playing will have a blast.  Myself I'm going to give my first love a try and play on the 40k team event. 

Good luck all and may Skaven always tip/cheat the odds in their favor!

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