Frostgrave...so good!

[PourSpelur]

Played my first game tonight and enjoyed the hell out of it! How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.

1)Small scale, 10ish models per side. This may be my favorite part. Ever had that model you loved but never got because you never had a reason? Now you do! Warbands can be a motley assortment.

2)Simple rules with lots of room for strategy. They're deceptively easy. Well placed plans can be ruined by a bad roll of the dice but it's not crazy random.

3) Wizards blasting each other with eldrich powers. Nuff said.

4) Inexpensive. Book is under $20. You can use the models they make or whatever you have on hand. We played Skaven vs. Persians.

5) Engaging. The turns are mixed and you're always reacting so no down time. No crushing an entire warband without being able to respond.

Can't say enough good things about this game.

[taran.shannara]

thanks for this review. yesterday was just looking at the "prerelease deal" at northstar on their rules and figures and wondered if it was any good as I really like the cultist figures.

[PourSpelur]

Don't hesitate! Buy now;)

Where are you located? I'm in Tacoma. If you're ever in the neighborhood I'd be happy to run you through a game. I'm still ironing out the rules but I have a table's worth of terrain, the book and cobbled together warbands. Best description for the game that I've come up with is, it's slick.

Fast, deadly and fun.

[generalripphook]

The people up in Bellingham had quite a few complaints with it mainly being

 

1) the lack of leveling of minion soldiers

2) no underdog mechanic between warbands

[Koyote]

The people up in Bellingham had quite a few complaints with it mainly being

 

1) the lack of leveling of minion soldiers

2) no underdog mechanic between warbands

 

Below is an article that identifies and offers house-rule fixes to some of the problems that arise during Frostgrave campaigns.

 

http://www.bad-karma.net/some-thoughts-on-frostgrave-mostly-the-campaign-system/

 

As noted in the article, modifying how Wizards earn XPs and ignoring the death result from the Wizard's injury table may may help with the underdog problem. 

 

Frostgrave's author, Joseph McCullough has a blog titled The Renaissance Troll. Joseph is aware of some of these problems and seems open to suggestions. One balancing scheme that Joseph suggests is to play multi-player games (i.e. 3-4 players).  Being a long time gamer, Joseph recognizes that when when playing multi-player games, if on player gets too strong, it's a trailing gamer's natural inclination to join others to group up on the lead player. As for myself, I've seen this countless times in multi-player board games and tabletop wargames.

 

Back when I was running Mordheim and Malifaux campaigns I noticed that when certain players fell behind in campaign points or if one player developed a huge lead over everyone else, many of the players in the middle and bottom of the rankings would disengage from the campaign.  They did the math and thought to themselves, 'Why bother?'

 

My response to this problem of campaign morale was to have the four highest scoring players play a final multi-player championship game to determine the overall winner.  The game's objective, usually a king-of-the-hill type game, was always located in the center of the table to deter players from holding back the entire game. 

 

This scheme changed the mindset of the players in the middle and near the bottom of the pack.  They no longer had to focus on catching up to the top scoring player, they only had to catch the guy in fourth place. While its not a perfect analogy, this idea always brings to mind the quote, "You don't have to be the fastest, just not the slowest."

 

 

Also, because multi-player games don't always favor the strongest warband, if a player made it into the championship game with a weaker warband, that player knew that he still had a chance of pulling off a win. And as we all know, and underdog win is the best type of win. :)

[PourSpelur]

Spitballing here.

Veteran Meatshield, you've survived 5 trips into Frostgrave.

Hounds: Sic em boy! If a hound wins combat you can choose to push 2" instead of the normal 1".

Crossbow: Run and Gun. Model can move 2" and still be considered as standing still for purposes of reloading.

Thug: Gimme yer wallet. If a thug takes out a member of an opposing warband by rolling a natural 20 immediately add the value of casualty to your gold stash.

Stuff like this could work. Add a bit of flair to surviving soldiers without having them overpower the Wizard/Apprentice focus of the game.

[Koyote]

I'm not too worried about Soldiers not leveling up. Keeping their stats fairly static helps to maintain game balance. Moreover, because of Frostgrave's particular D20 driven mechanics small stat boosts, like those available to Mordheim henchmen, aren't going to make that big of a difference.

 

If a player wants to graduate to more powerful Soldiers, as a warband grows in wealth and power it can hire better types of Soldiers. And if a player wants to customize or boost a Soldier's stat or abilities, simply equip that Soldier with a magic item.

[Duckman]

Being a long time gamer, Joseph recognizes that when when playing multi-player games, if on player gets too strong, it's a trailing gamer's natural inclination to join others to group up on the lead player. As for myself, I've seen this countless times in multi-player board games and tabletop wargames.

 

This is not a 100% truth.  In board gaming it is far from 100% and is often indicated by comments like "I don't really like this game but I'll play to be social."  There are also personality types that are interested in other things...  Winning to them is doing the most unexpected thing or carrying a personal vendetta into the game.  There are lots of games where balance is predicated on the idea that everyone is using the same definition of win and that everyone is interested in being the sole winner by those rules.

 

I suspect that it is the case that most or all of the people in this forum are going to fall into the category or gamers who *do* strive to win by the definition in the rules but I know there are a number of people I consider good friends who I will not play anything but co-op games with because they throw games based on grudges or "because they're bored and want the game to end".  Keep those in mind when thinking about balancing changes and how you structure things.

[Koyote]

This is not a 100% truth.

I think it's fair to say that in tabletop wargamming very few things true 100% of the time.

[Koyote]

 

I finally tracked down the company that makes these tokens. You can buy a full set of 136 tokens for around $23 or you can buy only the sets you need for a particular caster for $2-$3 each. If you purchase the acrylic tokens you get to choose the color of each set.

 

Blotz

[InfestedKerrigan]

Below is an article that identifies and offers house-rule fixes to some of the problems that arise during Frostgrave campaigns.

 

http://www.bad-karma.net/some-thoughts-on-frostgrave-mostly-the-campaign-system/

 

As noted in the article, modifying how Wizards earn XPs and ignoring the death result from the Wizard's injury table may may help with the underdog problem. 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that!  Super insightful!

[Koyote]

Earlier this week I found this scenario on a Frostgrave blog. I really like that the lair mechanic puts more beasties in play. It reminds me of the Mordheim campaigns that I used to run at Fire & Sword. We used the Random Happening rules, but threw out the 'one random encounter per game' rule. I remember times when we’d have 2 or 3 beasties rampaging around the board and then a table-wide event would strike, like a Storm of Chaos or an earthquake. The mayhem was glorious!

 

 

 

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the Random Happenings rules, HERE is a link to a PDF.

 

Another fun twist that can occur using the Random Happening rules is the sudden appearance of a Hired Sword who would immediately ally itself to the player with the lowest warband rating. Reminiscing about this got me thinking about the concerns some people have about Frostgrave lacking ‘underdog’ rules and how introducing a Hired Sword rule could be a partial fix.

 

Hired Sword rules could work as follows. Depending upon the disparity in Wizard levels, the lower level Wizard is temporarily joined by one or more Hired Swords (50-100 gc Soldiers), allowing the underdog player to temporarily exceed the 8 Soldier limit. At the end of the game the underdog warband would pay a fee and the Hired Sword departs.

 

Another idea that I’ve been tinkering with is an adjustment to the Random Encounter rules. The Random Encounter table is divided into 3 columns of encounters, increasing in strength from left to right. How about tying the column to the level of the wizard’s whose warband triggered the encounter? In theory, this would give a higher level wizard a more suitably challenging encounter, while at the same time ensuring the warbands of lower level wizards encounter beasties more suited to the warband’s power level.

 

Of course the level of a wizard isn’t the only measure of a warband’s strength, but I’d be reluctant to implement a complicated warband rating system. One of Frostgrave’s strengths is its relatively simple ruleset, so I’d hate to muck that up.

[Koyote]

I've been brainstorming ideas to address the experience point disparity between Wizards whose spells focus on taking out enemy models and Wizards whose spells focus on buffs and/or curses. What follows is proposed change to the current experience point chart and it is designed for games with a set or variable game length, which is another idea being discussed on the Frostgrave forums. It also presumes that we disregard the rule that states that the scenario captures all of the Treasure Tokens that remain on the table at game's end.

 

My changes still focus largely on taking out enemy models, but I've adjusted the point values and opened it up this means if earning XP to the entire warband, so the Wizard and Apprentice can focus on other aspects of the game. I also believe that warbands should be rewarded with xp for taking out hostile creatures that they encounter.

 

I've changed the xp awards for casting spells and based it upon the general difficulty of the casting requirement.

 

Lastly, I propose a change in how warbands earn xp from Treasure Tokens. My goal is to make it worthwhile to capture Treasure Tokens that a player knows that he or she can't get off the board. The scheme also creates an additional incentive for preventing an opponent from capturing or carrying off Treaure Tokens.

 

 

CAMPAIGN EXPERIENCE POINT TABLES 2.1

 

Casting*

Your Wizard or Apprentice casts a spell from own school: 20 xp

Your Wizard or Apprentice casts a spell from aligned school: 25 xp

Your Wizard or Apprentice casts a spell from neutral school: 30 xp

 

Taking Out Warband Members**

Enemy Soldier: 20 xp

Enemy Apprentice: 40 xp

Enemy Wizard 100: xp

 

Taking Out (Uncontrolled) Creatures**

Starting Health 01-05: 10 xp

Starting Health 06-10: 20 xp

Starting Health 11-15: 50 xp

Starting Health 16+: 100 xp

+20 xp if the creature type is immune to non-magical weapons

+10 xp if the creature was controlled by enemy warband when it was taken out****

 

Loot and Deeds

Winning a scenario: 100 xp

A scenario ends in a draw: 25 xp to each warband

Each Treasure Token taken off the table by your warband: 50 xp

Each Treasure Token held by a member of your warband that is still on the table: 25 xp*****

Each Treasure Token on your opponent’s half of the table that is not held: 25 xp

 

 

* A spell or spell effect that is “cast” automatically by any type of magic item is worth 0 xp. 'Out of game' spells are cast "directly before the [...] game" (SEE Frostgrave FAQ), so the experience points earned by casting these spells are combined with the experience points earned during the ensuing game.

 

** These xp are earned if any member of your warband or any model controlled by your warband takes out (TO) one of the models mentioned below. Please note that if an enemy caster takes control of a member of your warband or creature that is treated as a permanent member of your warband and that model TO another member of your warband or a creature, only the enemy caster earns xp.

 

*** This includes creatures that are treated as a permanent member of an enemy warband (e.g. summoned Constructs).

 

****Players only roll on the Treasure Table for Treasure Tokens taken off the board during game play.

[generalripphook]

I thought the game ended when all the treasure was removed off the table tho?

[Koyote]

I thought the game ended when all the treasure was removed off the table tho?

Oops, I accidentally hit report whole trying to push the quote button. Sorry about that.

 

As to your question,you are correct. However, if one plays fixed or random game length, removing all the Treasure Tokens from the board simply ends the game early, much in the same way wiping out your opponent's warband ends a game.

 

Thanks for bringing this point up. If I write campaign rules I will need to clarify the ways in which a game ends prior to the fixed or variable game length.

[Koyote]

I've given more thought to Frostgrave's campaign system and i've devised some rules that, in combination with my proposed changes to the XP rules, should address many of the complaints that I see on Frostgrave message boards and blogs.

 

 

Victory Conditions:

Unless a scenario states otherwise, the warband that recovers the most Treasure Tokens wins the scenario. In the event that there is a tie for the most Treasure Tokens recovered, the game is a draw.

 

If one or more Treasure Tokens remain on the table at the end of the scenario, then the player controlling the victorious warband recovers one of the remaining Treasure Tokens (the victorious player chooses which token to recover) and any remaining Treasure Tokens are lost. In the event of a draw, all of the Treasure Tokens that remain on the table at game’s end are lost.

 

 

Game Length:

Despite the thaw, the weather in Frostgrave remains unpredictable and lethal. Anyone caught in the open during one of Frostgraves’ unnaturally cold blizzards will succumb to the freezing temperatures within minutes. For this reason, forays into the city are timed to coincide with temporary lulls in the weather. When the temperature drops rapidly and the winds begin to roar, expeditions into the Frostgrave must flee the city or risk joining the city’s innumberable frozen dead.

 

At the end of Turn 5 roll a die. On a result of 6-20 the weather holds and a 6th Turn is played. On a result of 1-5 the scenario ends.

 

At the end of Turn 6, roll a die. On a result of 16-20 the temperature begins to drop, but there is still time, play a 7th Turn. On a result of 1-15 the scenario ends.

 

At the end of Turn 7, the winds begin to howl and the warbands must flee the city or perish. The game ends.

 

Please note that unless a scenario's rules state otherwise, a scenario immediately ends when the last Treasure Token is carried off the table.

 

 

‘Last Warband Standing’:

If all opposing warbands have been destroyed or left the table and Treasure Tokens remain on the table, the player controlling the ‘last warband standing’ may choose to end the scenario or continue playing until the random game length rules end the scenario or until the last Treasure Token is carried off the board. If said player chooses to continue playing, he or she may terminate the scenario at any point during any of the remaining turns.

 

 

Legends Never Die:

When rolling on the Survival Table for a Wizard, replace the ‘Dead’ result with: “The Wizard is both ‘Badly Wounded’ and suffers a ‘Permanent Injury.”

 

If a Wizard suffers a second ‘Lost Eye’ result, reroll the injury until the result is something other than a ‘Lost Eye.’

 

 

Not So Random Encounters: (optional)

If the players agree to use the Random Encounter rules, then the level of an encounter is not determined randomly. Instead, the level of the encounter is determined by the level of the Wizard whose warband triggered the encounter. If a warband’s Wizard does not participate in the game due to a ‘Badly Wounded’ result on the Survival Table, then that warband’s encounter is Level 1.

 

Level 1-5 Wizards: Level 1 Encounter

Level 5-10 Wizards: Level 2 Encounter

Level 10+ Wizards: Level 3 Encounter

 

 

Underdog Bonuses:

"I love being the underdog, sometimes." –The last words of the wizard Graaver The Wise

 

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger – If, at the start of a game the level of one of the Wizards on the table exceeds that of another Wizard, consult the following table to determine if the lower level Wizard receives bonus experience points at the end of the game. In multi-player games, each warband calculates this bonus by subtracting its Wizard’s level from that of the highest level Wizard who participated in the game.

 

Level Difference : 1-5 = No bonus experience points

Level Difference : 6-10 = 200 bonus experience points

Level Difference : 11+ = 400 bonus experience points

 

 

The gods love children and fools – As the defeated warband limps back to its base they stumble upon a strongbox, half buried in snow and rubble. When the strongbox is opened, the disheartened adventurers see something that makes them smile.

 

If, at the start of a game the level of one of the Wizards on the table exceeds that of another Wizard by six or more levels AND the lower level Wizard’s warband does not win the game, then the defeated warband is granted one additional roll on the Treasure table. The defeated warband receives the additional roll, regardless of how many Treasure Tokens it recovered during the scenario.

 

In multi-player games, each warband determines whether it qualifies for this bonus by subtracting its Wizard’s level from that of the highest level Wizard who participated in the game.

[Swan-of-War]

Picked these rules up over the weekend - looking forward to playing!

[Terell]

Anyone playing the Portland area? I watched a couple battle reports and now I am curious .. need to find something to do with those AoS models I am not using :)

 

-T

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Just ordered the book. I'm in Portland area and definitely want to give this a try.

[Peanut]

Bigglesworth, I just got the book myself. Warhammer_t and I are looking to start playing, join us!

[Torg]

I'm interested in this game as well - but have yet to pick up a book.  Too many things to do on my list right now - But I will keep an eye out for demo games :)

 

-d

[Peanut]

Torg, join us! You don't need the book, I have it.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

I'll try to be ready by next Tuesday game night

[Don't Panic]

i breezed through it at gamenight when peanut let me skim it.  looks really cool.  a game id love to play and drink a beer too...

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

I love a good campaign/RPG tabletop game. I think that is why I love blood bowl so much.