Guest Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Wonderfully annoying debate with another 40k player. Don't ask how, but his vindicator with machine spirit is shaken, making it fire snap shots, and he's telling me that machine spirit allows ordnance blast weapons to fire while snapping. Claims this is directly covered in the FAQ. I can find neither rules nor FAQ to this extent. Where are they found? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 As far as I can tell, the current FAQs are 2015 and older, and do not cover this issue. http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edosaurus Rex Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 To my understanding, Power of the Machine Spirit ignores being shaken or stunned for the weapon that it fires. It states that it allows the vehicle to "fire one more weapon than normally permitted at its full ballistic skill". So if you normally aren't permitted to fire any weapons at your full ballistic skill due to being shaken or stunned, you would instead be able to fire one weapon (ordnance included) at full BS and snap fire everything else. I do recall reading a clarification about this in a FAQ somewhere, but I believe that it was in the new first draft FAQ that GW released a couple weeks ago. Perhaps that is what the other player was referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Unclear on the draft FAQ, as that one doesn't address what happens with regard to the snap fire effect, which is more than just a bs modifier. And, as is, the full bs of a shaken vehicle is 1... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Previous editions were clear that the power of the machine spirit allowed firing while shaken/stunned but that was before snap firing... I'd say edition mixing led to this confidence and dispute Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Very much agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purajh Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 My two cents is rules as written this would not have been permitted. Being Shaken or stunned has no impact on Ballistic Skill(BS) stat (they force snap shots, which the result of that rule treats all shots made as snap shots as BS 1 regardless of the models BS), and the power of the machine spirit shots are still subject to the normal rules of shooting. BRB pg 76 Shaken/Stunned"vehicle can only fire snap shots until the end of its turn"BRB pg 41 Ordnance weapons "Ordnance weapons cannot fire snapshots." BRB pg 169 Power of the Machine spirit. "The vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purajh Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Side note the portion from the FAQ draft that was most likely referenced by the other player Q: Can a vehicle that has Jinked, or which has a suffered a Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned result, use Power of the Machine Spirit to fire 1 weapon at full Ballistic Skill?A: Yes. But as my earlier post explains full ballistic skill does not overpower the snapshot rule. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PourSpelur Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 This is a funny game. The exact rule you quote to strengthen your stance is the rule I'd quote to oppose it. BRB pg 76 Shaken/Stunned "vehicle can only fire snap shots until the end of its turn" BRB pg 41 Ordnance weapons "Ordnance weapons cannot fire snapshots." BRB pg 169 Power of the Machine spirit. "The vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting." I'd argue that the section you placed in red defines that the additional unit that PotMS allows firing at must be in range...etc.The section stating ”... May fire one more weapon at full ballistic skill..." is what pushed me to interpret the rule the exact opposite way you do. Not arguing with you. Just though it was funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 While I want to allow the shot, a rule over riding snap fire must do so specifically. At full bs doesn't over ride snap firing per the snap firing rule. I know gw and their sloppy writing intend ignoring snap fire restrictions but they don't. Machine spirits aren't the crew they care not about snap firing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 What could "full BS" possibly mean in this context, except in contrast to (and being more specific, overriding) "as Snap Shots"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 What could "full BS" possibly mean in this context, except in contrast to (and being more specific, overriding) "as Snap Shots"? Several things are confusing, though the top of the list is probably the ill-defined "full BS" concept. I can't find any rules to suggest a distinct difference between ballistic skill and full ballistic skill. I think this is a reference to the dated machine spirit rule, which always fired at BS2. I believe the intention relates to rules for vehicles moving and shooting, which has normal vehicles moving at combat speed firing one weapon at ballistic skill and all other weapons as snap shots. I believe the intention is that this rule allows an additional weapon to be fired at ballistic skill, instead of a snap shot, but only with regard to moving and shooting vehicle rules. I don't think the intention is to allow a vehicle forced to snapfire to ignore that effect with one weapon. Otherwise Land Raiders become one of the more reliable AA platforms, and that's clearly not intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Yep sloppy rules there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Unclear on the draft FAQ, as that one doesn't address what happens with regard to the snap fire effect, which is more than just a bs modifier. And, as is, the full bs of a shaken vehicle is 1... Nope. The full BS of the Vehicle is still whatever it is. Snap Firing doesn't change that, it just makes the shots resolve at BS1 regardless of that full BS (and with a few extra limitations). The Full BS of a Land Raider is still 4 when it's moved at Cruising Speed, is Shaken or Stunned, or otherwise forced to make Snap Shots. (I believe it's still BS4 even when under the effect of something that reduces BS without forcing Snap Shots, like some Maledictions, but I'm pretty sure that's not actually addressed anywhere in the Rules.) More generally, the Vehicles in the Shooting Phase presents the situation as a binary option, where shots are either made at full BS or as Snap Shots. Within that context, there are really only two possibilities from the RAW: Either the "full Ballistic Skill" clause in PotMS doesn't actually do anything at all (because "Snap Shots" would override it in every situation), or it can be applied in any situation where the Land Raider would be forced to Snap Fire one or more Weapons for any reason. There's nothing to justify it overriding Snap Shots in some circumstances (Moving at Combat/Cruising Speed) and not in others (Stunned/Shaken, Hard to Hit, Invisibility). I doubt that's the actual intention, but that's what they wrote. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Nope. The full BS of the Vehicle is still whatever it is. Snap Firing doesn't change that, it just makes the shots resolve at BS1 regardless of that full BS (and with a few extra limitations). The Full BS of a Land Raider is still 4 when it's moved at Cruising Speed, is Shaken or Stunned, or otherwise forced to make Snap Shots. (I believe it's still BS4 even when under the effect of something that reduces BS without forcing Snap Shots, like some Maledictions, but I'm pretty sure that's not actually addressed anywhere in the Rules.) More generally, the Vehicles in the Shooting Phase presents the situation as a binary option, where shots are either made at full BS or as Snap Shots. Within that context, there are really only two possibilities from the RAW: Either the "full Ballistic Skill" clause in PotMS doesn't actually do anything at all (because "Snap Shots" would override it in every situation), or it can be applied in any situation where the Land Raider would be forced to Snap Fire one or more Weapons for any reason. There's nothing to justify it overriding Snap Shots in some circumstances (Moving at Combat/Cruising Speed) and not in others (Stunned/Shaken, Hard to Hit, Invisibility). I doubt that's the actual intention, but that's what they wrote. I wish it were that simple. As my book says in the vehicle shooting section, there are two types of shots, snap shots and shots at ballistic skill. "full bs" is not a term in that section (I can't find it). The snapfire BS is not a penalty to BS, it changes the entire value. And snapfire is part of the normal rules for shooting. I agree, it's mostly useless. I've not been using land raiders much in 7th for this reason. It still allows splitting fire, which helps as most units with machine spirit are overpriced.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 The Snap Shots section says that Snap Shots are simply counted as BS1 for the purpose of that shot. It does not actually change the Model's BS. I just looked it up to make sure. Since "at full BS" isn't used anywhere else, the only meaningful interpretation is that it's functionally identical to "at BS". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 If youre playing 30k kachine spirit doesnt do the same as power of the machine spirit. It allows you to move flat out and fire 1 weapon at full ballistic skill. So vidicators can scoot 12 and fire off that template. Guessing pax is bringing up 30k but not sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 That is also what the 40K version does, amongst other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 The 30k faq uses the 40k machine spirit, so they are the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 I found another place where they use "full BS". It's in the Death from the Skies Dogfighting Rules, in pretty much the same context as above: a binary choice between "Snap Shots" or "At full BS". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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