Infinity Thoughts Blog

[Kremmet]

Hey all, long time no write! Ever since OFCC I've been sorta taking a break from Infinity while things settle down in my area. Gaming drama is always the best!

Anyway, recently I had the chance to try out a few lists I put together at the end of last season and boy did they get the ol' gears turning. The idea is something I've been thinking about since my days playing WHFB: how do you maintain hidden units in a tournament where somebody just has to ask your previous opponent? One of the things I loved in WHFB and now Infinity is the ability to hide information from my opponent until the opportune moment, but there was a pretty decent argument for completely-open lists back in the day due to how easy it was to gain information about hidden units. Even when my future opponents weren't trying to glean any advantage they can, it's pretty natural to talk about how things are going with your friends/various people while taking a break between rounds or even just to catch a glimpse of hidden information while checking out games after your own has ended. So, in a game like Infinity where information on your opponent's list is a huge boon, how do we combat this?

One solution is something I see a lot: just play lists that don't rely on drop/TO/holo troops to win. This is pretty solid and is definitely something I'd recommend people do as just a baseline, but what about when you're looking to try something new? What happens when the point of your list is that you have a bunch of ninjas/Rasyats/etc? Well, that's trickier. My solution was to specifically design two lists to be paired with each other so that my opponent, regardless of information level, can be caught unawares. Before I get into what I mean by that, here are the lists as I brought them last Saturday:

List One:

Tigerx3
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GROUP 17  1  
TIGER SOLDIER Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
TIGER SOLDIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
RAIDEN (Minelayer, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

GROUP 29  4
TIGER SOLDIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
RAIDEN (Minelayer, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)

6 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

List Two:

Tigerx3 pairing LOL v2.0
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 17  1  
RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
RAIDEN (Minelayer, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
HAC TAO (Executive Order) HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 69)
ONIWABAN Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 41)

GROUP 27  4
NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

5 SWC | 298 Points

Open in Infinity Army

You might have noticed that List One is a continuation of my research into triple Tiger lists from the past with the notable difference of this one not being Limited Insertion. In fact, this want to play with all three tigers was what got me started on this in the first place: how do I hide and/or enhance the surprise this type of list brings so I'm not just a one-trick pony? My answer was to jam the tiger list full of camo markers so that you were never sure how many points were actually on the table at any time along with writing a second list that preyed specifically on that type of knowledge.

You see, I split my potential opponents into three categories: those who didn't know enough about Infinity/YJ to notice that 90ish points were missing from the table, those who did know enough to notice, and those who specifically already knew what my list had in it. By doing this, I was more easily able to measure what goals I wanted to reach or, to put it another way, how was I going to trick all three opponents into not knowing what was going on?

The first type of opponent, the one that doesn't know enough to not be tricked, was the easiest. All I had to do to trick them effectively was write an effective list using three tigers. While the above is still in the beta stages, it's definitely on the right track there. The second type of person, however, was going to need a little more. To accomplish the deception here I was going to need to tackle the second and third types at the same time through the construction of a second list. My second list has all the same visible parts in it (the Rui Shi, the Zhanshi, Kuang Shi, etc.) along with all the camo markers of the first (provided my KHD ninja deploys in regular camo), but has the added benefit of preying on the informed player's fear: that those camo markers aren't mines and instead of Hac Tao/etc. 

This second list accomplishes the goal of setting up some traps for my opponent regardless of their exterior knowledge of my list (i.e. whether they know the faction), but it also suits my ultimate goal which was to deal with people with interior knowledge (i.e. people who know my specific lists). Because my visible components are always the same, I can basically shuffle the lists and pick whichever when I play people. This allows me to have vastly different damage/threat vectors that people need to constantly be aware of along with similar pieces with which to win the game. An added benefit is that I get to turn my opponent's knowledge of my lists into my strength as they're constantly second guessing what is what and when my tigers will drop. As long as we're not playing a mission where I specifically need one list or the other, which is pretty damn rare, they won't really know what's going on until I pop a Hac Tao/tiger. And watching people squirm is the sweetest reward of all.

While I won't go into how the event I brought these lists to went too much (I went undefeated with two ties), I will say that my opponents being open about what they were afraid of once I announced I was doing tricksy nonsense was pretty eye-opening. My current thought is that List One needs to be workshopped a bit more, but that List Two's major issue is that the tricks aren't really all that tricky. A Hac Tao is pretty much going to pop up ASAP which gives it all away. I'll be swapping a few things around in the future such as dropping the Hac Tao and trying some...other camo tricks to play around with my opponents.

It should be great fun and, hopefully, I can talk about it more in-depth in the future.

[Andrewc]

Just listened to the recent Remote Presence podcast where they talk about taking 3 tiger soldiers and a cube jager.  If you haven't you should give it a listen, and I'd be interested in hearing your own thoughts.

[Kremmet]

Not sure about the place for the Jager in my lists as I don't need a short-range skirmisher in my Tiger pairing list and the SWC is pretty tight in the Tiger list. 

[Kremmet]

Just listened to that Remote Presence episode and, wow, those are some very similar ideas on triple drop troops. 

Now that I've had a bit more time and a different perspective listened to, I still don't see the point of three tigers and a jager. My issue is that you're investing too deeply into the "everybody knows what I'm about" which is a trap. At that point, it doesn't matter if you have a fourth drop troop as it's unlikely a fourth will do something unique compared to an infiltrator or the other three. What I do like the idea of is swapping out one of the Paramedic tigers for the SMG jager as having shock in the midfield is always appreciated. I'll have to think it over.

[Andrewc]

I'm glad you got some food for thought!