Chaos Space Marines 8th Ed Escalation Thread

[peter.cosgrove]

Some thoughts on 8th Edition and Chaos Space Marines:

In very general terms Space Marines and the Bolter are the core mechanic for both Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine armies. The 3+ armor save and the rapid fire 3+ ballistic skill. The farther an army list strays from these two core mechanics the more variable the fortunes of the army. 

Or at least that's the way things used to be.

8th Edition gives us two very powerful mechanics that, without which, used break both Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine armies.

Split Fire and +1 to hit after moving with heavy weapons. These two mechanics are hugely significant for Chaos Space Marines. In addition, equipping a chainsword for +1 attacks, being able to assault after disembarking from a Rhino, the Rhino's 12" movement (13"-18" after advancing), the ability to fall back from combat and embarking into a Rhino/Landraider and the ability for a Rhino/Landraider to move the full distance AND shoot all of it's weapons, being able to put 2 or more different units into a Rhino/Land Raider, being able to take a short squad, the ability to shoot the rapid fire bolter/weapons AND assault, etc. really bring forward a lot of the capabilities that broke and fractured Space Marine/Chaos Space Marines in previous editions.

Chaos Space Marines in 8th edition are a whole new capability of beast unseen in any previous editions.

For me personally I've been gradually building my Chaos Space Marine Army since mid/late 4th edition. I have always felt that a correct or complete army list needs to contain factions from all 4 gods. Building a list that only contains one god's faction and playing against the same leaves a sour taste that makes me uncomfortable. At the point where only 1 faction is playable and the best armies for Chaos Space Marines come from one faction is a really good indication that Games Workshop broke Chaos Space Marines and rendered them unplayable.

This edition they went the other way. To be fair, they empowered units that were made powerful already late in 7th edition (Early 2017), as well as making Chaos Space Marines in general very vanilla, but they added, even in the base index, faction specific mechanics that coupled with the more general 8th edition rules makes bringing a multi-god/faction army that stays with the base mechanics of the +3 armor save/+3 ballistic skill/Rapid fire bolters very solid. When they did this they didn't really change any of the units from their base modeling choices available since Chaos Space Marines were first introduced. I really like 8th edition.

There are some detractions. Rhino's lost their firing ports so the process of bringing Havocs with 2 heavy weapons and sit them in a stationary Rhino as an ablative is gone. Obliterators lost both their ability to shoot to 48" and assault with power fists and have to be taken in units of 3. Chaos Icons are pointless (if you want to argue this point take it to another thread), the Vindicator currently (see the Space Marine codex for why) has been significantly reduced (The Vindicators role in previous edition was to wipe out the tarpits, it can't do that anymore).

Escalation League: Spoiled for choice!

The only unit I currently am lusting for is Khorne Zerkers. I had 20-30 of them but they got nerfed into oblivion so I ended up taking the rather drastic step a long time ago of stripping them and turning them into Raptors/Chosen. They are definately back, with a vengeance. What I would like to do is take 2-3 squads of 5 with 3 plasma pistols and all chainswords and put them into Rhinos with Thousand Sons (Sorry, Rubric Marines) and do a midfield Rhino Assault old school style, but I haven't put that together yet. Base 2 attacks, 3 with a chainsword, 3 plasma pistols for 21 points AND the ability to consolidate forward and force a second fight during Both YOUR turn and your OPPONENTS turn. 

Oldies but goodies. Thousand Sons (sorry, Rubric Marines)

Staying with the core mechanic of +3 ballistic skill, rapid fire bolters with -2 AP and the +5/+4 Invuln save as well as the 1 point Smite/Deny the Witch capability of the squad sorcerer makes this unit a SOLID choice. Add in the warp flamers (AP -2 Flamers?!!) for twice the price and they become very expensive.. very deadly cannon fodder.

Welcome back. Land Raider.

Actually, you need a WHOLE new way of describing the 8th edition capabilities of the Chaos Landraider. In 8th edition the land raider can do things it NEVER could before. The only other vehicle that can even come close is the Stormraven and the point is arguable given the +3 armor save of the Stormraven. I could probably talk for 30 minutes about the 8th edition land raider, but I won't. The important bit is, Too expensive for the escalation league.

Staying solid. Plague Marines.

Not really much change. The modeling stays the same from the beginnings. The good part is combi weapons can now fire every turn so the ability for plague marines to bring 3 plasma guns/Flamers to the fight is SOLID combined with the 5 toughness/+5 FNP/reroll 1's to wound.

Take a second look!. Noise Marines.

On paper they look.. meh. Until you notice a couple different things. First off. Noise marines come with base TWO attacks () AND can all equip a chainsword (). This puts them into Chosen territory. Alternatively you can go shooty with them, take the Sonic Blasters for 3 attacks at 24 inches that ignores cover save bonus after advancing. This is a good unit that exemplifies the "Take 2 units of 5" because  you can take 2 blastmasters which will damage a landraider AND 2 doom sirens (AP-2 flamer anyone?) and gets a free shooty attack on death, even in close combat for the same price as chosen and Khorne Zerkers. Noise marines arguably  suffer the most from the Rhino's lack of firing ports.

Which is which? Chaos Space Marines / Chosen / Havocs / Fallen.

For these units you really have to lump them all together and there is a reason why. They all got hit with the vanilla bat. If you want to make a comparison between Chosen and Khorne Zerkers then do that. Other than that specific comparison you are going to be looking at these 4 units together trying to pick and choose the best choice which will be most likely based on massed shooty and relying on the +3 armor save for the additional fight capability in units of 5, but added choices in groups of 7-10. They all can take heavy weapons. They all can take special weapons. Chaos icons don't help any of them for shooty. You have to take a Chaos Lord with them for shooty/assaulty re-rolls (or Cypher for the fallen). Abaddon has lost his special affinity for Chosen, so you can get the same effect from him with all 3 non-Fallen units. Now, here is the reason why. Chosen have to give up their bolter for a chainsword, they didn't have to do that before. Chaos Space Marines have to give up their bolter for a chainsword, they also didn't have to do that before. Havocs.. surprise surprise, have to give up their bolter for a chainsword. Fallen, have to give up their bolter for a chainsword. All 4 units can take heavy/special weapons but they have to give up their bolter for it. So. If you want shooty with 2 attacks base take either Chosen or Fallen. Fallen can't go into transports (But they can go into fortifications ) but that distinction is pointless because you can't shoot out of a rhino. If you want long range shooty you have to take havocs and either put them into a bunker or pay a LOT for the ablatives they will need on the 8th edition battlefield. Something to note, havocs don't get any shooting bonuses like Devastators/Long Fangs/Fallen. BUT with all these units you can bring a mix/match of heavy/special shooty weapons and plus up with added chainsword/pistol whippers to take the wounds and add to the assault if you bring 7-10 of them.

Worth their weight in GOLD. Chaos Cultists/Plague Zombies (Sorry, Poxwalkers)

Welcome back Chaos Cultists and their nurgle cousins the Plague Zombies (frak.. Poxwalkers) For the escalation league I wish I had some of these. I keep thinking of remaking a bunch of my Ork models into cultists, just haven't gotten there yet. The one problem with Chaos Space Marines currently is they are almost incapable of wiping out tarpits (see vindicator) In return the CSM can bring these cheap bastards that are definately price positive for what they do. You can also look into adding demon tarpits all of which are slightly added cost but bring shooty/assaulty/mind-zappery to the table (The Horror.. The Horrors)

Ring in the NEW!. Scarab Occult Terminators. These.. Beat the stock CSM terminators out of the water. If you are going to take termies.. take these, unless you specifically want combi plasma/melta and/or power fist/chainfist/lightning claws. THEY ARE THE SAME PRICE. This is a unit that is built specifically to take in a full 10 model squad. Base 33 points plus 50 for the squad sorc, 4 points for the power sword, add 3 points for the -2AP combi bolter (4 shots ap-2 on deep strike??!!), 22 points for the AP-2 2 shot missile rack for d3 damage at 24"(compared to 25 points for the AP-2 1 shot krak missile at 48" for d6) , and either 20 points for the AP-3 4 attacks cannon or the 23 points for the AP-2 heavy flamer. Add in 1 point smite/deny the witch from the sorc. This unit exemplifies how 8th edition can work. You can put the missile rack ONTO the model with the cannon/heavy flamer, and keep them until the last because you choose where the wounds go. AND that model can fire the cannon/flamer into one target and the missiles into another target. Just.. boggles the mind. Even base you are getting 40 AP-2 bolter shots on first turn deep strike, with a below 27% chance to charge with power swords (bring Warp Time ftw). Add in the 5+/4+ invuln save. Base CSM terminators can't even compare.

A list of pointless units. (8th edition, no surprises here, sorry you bought the models for the P2W 7th edition pricing scheme gamesworkshop put together, hope the so-called "waiting for the codex" works for you but given the way the Space Marines codex is built you will need a significant amount of command points and pay for multiple models to make them work)

Heldrake. Not only can every unit shoot this 7th edition P2W model down, it isn't a transport. And it costs twice what a rhino costs, so 2 Rhinos can transport 20 CSM models with ALL the shooty/assaulty the pitiful heldrake fails to bring AND generally it will hit the enemy by itself leaving behind the rest of your models so it can get singled out for all the shorter range units in your enemy midfield (first turn) and backfield (second turn) that weren't going to be shooting at anything anyway.

Warp Talons. No shooty.. Raptors have shooty. To assault on deep strike you have to invest some heavy resources to MAKE SURE you get an assault on deep strike. If you take the Warp Talons with the Icon of Wrath (and you would have to) AND you allocate a command point to reroll 1 of the charge dice you have a 27% chance to make the 9 inches you would need to get these guys in. If you add in a sorc with jump pack/terminator armor you have a chance to use Warp Time (once! that is deny the witchable!) These guys are 28 points per model for ONE wound. To give a comparison to, say, Occult Terminators, or even base terminators, or even raptors, 56 points for 2 wounds, 4 AP-2 attacks on the charge with a wound reroll, and can't be overwatched on the charge with a 3+ armor save . A base terminator is 38 points for 2 wounds, 4 AP- attacks shooty/2 attacks on the charge with a 2+armor save. BUT they can take lightning claws too for the wound reroll (44 points). Comparing Warp Talons to Occult terminators is even worse given the 4 shots AP-2 from the combi-bolter, the 5+/4+ invuln save etc. The comparison with Raptors is a little different. Raptors have alway been designed as a throwaway shooting surgical strike team. Cheap for 3 melta's on deep strike to take out vehicles, for example. 8th edition kind of took away the one-shot capability of melta's, so Raptors aren't all that and a bag of chips. And in 8th edition, terminators have 2 wounds. Bottom line is, point for point, Warp talons that don't make the charge and stay in the charge (They aren't Khorn zerkers) will be wiped out wasted.

Obliterators. I put these on the table ONCE. They are crap. Compared to EVERYTHING else deep strikable they are absolute garbage. And to put them on the board with their pitiful 24" inch range they become a laughable pile of fluffy clowns compared to ANYTHING that can take plasma guns.

Mutilators. Worse that Obliterators, they have no shooty. (see Warp Talons) and only 3 attacks on the charge. At least Obliterators (same price) have some shooty. Just imagine throwing 195 points into a 120 point tarpit and seeing them take out 4 models per turn. Ugh

Chaos Spawn. 7" movement? WTF. And you can't hide IC's in with them anymore (See Flesh Hounds)

Chaos Terminators. You have to take them in units of 5 now. Very expensive for only 2 attacks base. 38 points per model including combi bolter/power axe. You can mix and match (Good!). On deep strike 20 bolter shots plus a 27% chance to charge. Add in combi plasma/melta and mix and match. Now have 2 wounds. Bad when compared with the Occult Terminators, and since you have to buy 5 instead of 3 you  lose the capability to provide cheap threat dispersion by deep striking 3 or more units of 3 like  you used to.

Posessed. Garbage compared to Khorne Zerks. More expensive, no plasma shooty and can't carry a charge into a 2nd unit.

Vindicator. Craptastic. Even in the best case scenario you might.. MIGHT kill 5 models. Your average kill count on a 5+ model unit will be 3 models. At a 24 inch range. With NO assaulty capability. With, I might add, the necessity to fire stationary for the 3+ ballistic skill. Arguably even worse than Obliterators. At least Obliterators can deep strike. Absolute waste of points.

Unit's Up in the Air/On the Fence.

Chaos Predator. This one is a hard one. If you compare a predator with 4 lascannon/havoc launcher/combi-flamer to a 5 man havoc squad in a bunker you have a good idea why it's not easy to choose. 100 points for the lascannon for both. 65 for the Havocs, 102 for the predator, 100 for the imperial bunker. 265 for the Havoc/Bunker, 202 for the Predator. 11 wounds for the predator, 17 wounds for the Havocs in the bunker. BUT after only 6 wounds the Predator shoots at ballistic skill 4, whereas the Havocs in the bunker have to lose 12 wounds AND move to shoot at BS 4+. Add in the Havoc Launcher/Combi Flamer for 22 points (VERY good value). The Predator, if it moves will shoot at BS4 anyway. AND it's a single target that is surgical strikeable. Havocs in a bunker, it takes a bit to wipe them out because of the special rules that fortifications/bunkers have. And you can plop the bunker down onto an objective and have the havocs camp it and pwn anything shootable in 48 inches (8th edition cover saves.. or lack therof ftw!?)

Helbrute. For a mix of shooty/attacky it is very lackluster. The shining example is adding 2 heavy flamers to the 2 fists. Unfortunately, given the lack of multi-deployment capability that both 8th edition and CSM gives to it and only having 8 wounds/3+ save making it surgical strikeable it becomes kind of an anti-deep strike unit (8" movement) bait/trap that you kind of hope your enemy falls into. Not really usable in escalation for the points.

Chaos Bikers. Not only did they get hit with the CSM vanilla bat (No Toughness 6 Nurgle Bikers for joo!!), they also got hit with the 8th edition OMG we went WAY too far into the whole have everyone P2W dark angels scheme of 7th edition(No Jink bull[big bad swear word] for joo!?!). They are back to being what they are. T5 dudes on bikes. You can't use them to carry biker sorcs. Price compared to Raptors for melta/plasma but w/o the ablative wounds/deep surgical strike capability. There is a small caveat. Bikers can, instead of everyone else, swap their PISTOL for a chainsword. Since they come stock with combi bolters, 4 shots at 12", who needs pistols. BECAUSE they can take an ADDITIONAL item, (not swap) from the special weapons list. This means you can take the combi bolter AND Plasma gun/Melta AND chainsword AND in 8th edition you can shoot both the combi bolter AND the plasma gun. Add in the chainsword for 2 attacks on the charge with a 14" movement you have a very powerful, cost relative, unit. 31 points though for a 1 wound model? That's Occult Terminator territory, 64 points for 2 wounds, no invuln save, no power weapons and AP-1-3 weapons you are paying for through the nose.

What the CSM lacks, and desperately needs is some form of anti-tarpit capability. More on that later.

[ninefinger]

Nice review, pete!

 What have you been building/painting?   How'd they fare last week?

[peter.cosgrove]

Chaos demon horror minipits, faired poorly. did a 3 way for objectives, Rhino rush ftw. Went up against necron fire and maneuver. Not enough space for counter maneuver and fire. pitted and wiped.

[peter.cosgrove]

Chosen in 8th Edition.
This is a 10 model Chosen unit I put together that is, I think, streamlined for 8th edition.

When you do the cross comparison between Thousand Sons, Khorn Zerkers and Chosen, each unit has their niche. When you are looking for a throwaway unit capable of taking on a 30 model tarpit this is probably the best utility unit to use for the points.

10xChosen 16 points = 160 points

5xCombi-Flamer 11 points= 55 points

5xChainsword traded for boltgun.

Chosen Total, 215 points.

When properly deployed facing an enemy target unit, eg. from a Rhino or Landraider, this unit will get the 5 attacks from the flamethrowers, the 10 additional rapid fire shots from the boltguns at +1 BS, 5 more pistol shots at normal ballistic skill, and 26 attacks on the charge. Against a normal 4 toughness/4+ armor save unit this averages out to 25 shooting hits/12-13 shooting wounds/6 kills, and in the attack 16-17 attack hits/8 attack wounds/4 kills, for a total 10 average kills subMEQ. 

Khorne Zerkers in the same situation for 181 points, would get 3 plasma pistol shots, 7 pistol shots, and 31 attacks on the charge. 2 plasma shooting hits, 4 bolt shooting hits, 1-2 plasma wounds, 2 bolt shooting wounds, 2-3 shooting kills followed by 20 attack hits/13 attack wounds/6 kills for a total of 8-9 kills. Against a 30 model tarpit figure 20 attacks coming back, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 2 kills on the Khorne Zerkers, so 8 models will live for the special zerker attack phase. 24 attacks, 16 hits, 10-11 wounds, 5 more kills for a total of 14. IF the tarpit doesn't have any morale modifiers (ya right, EVERY tarpit has morale modifiers) then it will lose a minimum of 1 model in the moral phase, average 3 more models. All told an average 17 subMEQ models down in one turn.

Thousand Sons/Rubric Marines can't compete with the cost effectiveness of the Chosen and the Khorne Zerkers. 223 points for 10 models. 9x Inferno boltguns, aspiring sorc with force sword/inferno pistol. 1 smite kill, 19 shots from the bolters for 12 hits/6 wounds, AP -2, 5 shooting kills, only 2 force weapon and 9 attacks on the charge, 1-2 force weapon hits, 6 normal hits, 0-1 force weapon wounds, 3 normal wounds, so only 1-3 kills on the attack for a total of average 7 subMEQ kills. If you add in the warpflamer for 15 points (13 points nominal) you will replace the 1-2 hits from the boltgun with 3-4 hits from the flamer (both are AP-2) which would give you 2 wounds, 1-2 kills. Essentially add 1 model kill for each warpflamer because the warpflamer replaces the inferno boltgun. So you would end up paying 262 points for 10 total average sub MEQ (Chosen), and 340 points for 16 total average subMEQ (Zerker).

The same applies to both the Plague Marines and Noise Marines. The Noise marines would satisfy the role slightly better than plague marines, but the overall effect is to gain 3 AP-2 flamethrowers and lose bolters for chainswords. Alternatively, with plague marines, gain 3 flamethrowers and lose 2 bolters. Plague marines however only have 1 attack on the charge. Noise marines get 2.

 

 

[DisruptiveConduct]

so wait....in this edition, you can shoot your combi-flamer AND still rapid fire with the bolter part of it? I thought it was "shoot your pistol or shoot all the other weapons you have" maybe combi weapons are special like that?

[VonVilkee]

Combi weapons are two "other" weapons... they have a specific rule that inflicts -1 to hit (Pete thinks+1bs slight technicality but basically right) if both barrels are used.

[peter.cosgrove]

Not only that but you can shoot the flamer/plasma/melta portion of the combi weapon...

on and on and on and on..

"insert clever 3 sec gif of journey's Don't Stop Believing" [nope.. too lazy to actually find one]

[peter.cosgrove]

7 hours ago, DisruptiveConduct said:

so wait....in this edition, you can shoot your combi-flamer AND still rapid fire with the bolter part of it? I thought it was "shoot your pistol or shoot all the other weapons you have" maybe combi weapons are special like that?

So. At this point  you have to make a cross comparison between this chosen unit and a stock space marine unit equivalent. Because Chronus.

Sternguard Vets are out, 2x heavy flamers are nice, but no chainswords for joo.

The closest unit is stock Company Vets. Same stats as the Chosen and come with bolt pistol/chainsword. Unit's are maxed at 5. This unit can replace their chainsword with combi weapons AND replace their bolt pistol with Storm Shields. So already if you take 2x squads you can take 5x combi flamers WITH stormshields and 5x BP/Chainsword. Granted it's two units but that's generally a bonus if you don't need/want ablatives because in 8th they can both fit into one transport. You could even split it into 5x squads of 2 FOR THE SAME PRICE which will essentially give you 4 extra melee attacks (5x Veteran Sergeant vs 1x Chosen Champion [which is kind of silly because you could take 2x Chosen for 2 extra melee attacks]. So think ludicrous and go the max of 3 extra melee attacks. 

This setup is not so good if you are thinking of using the flamers on overwatch, which is the point of having 5x combi flamers VS the Khorne Zerkers. If you aren't worried about overwatch then Khorne zerkers are better than the chosen in every way, cheaper, and comes with 3 plasma shots. If only 1 of the 5x 2 model squads is assaulted you would only get 1 flamer on overwatch instead of all 5, BUT that 2 model unit is going to die anyway so they are ablative. The good thing about this setup is you are putting essentially 6 units (6 with LR/Rhino and 7 with Chronus) on the board as one "set up on the battlefield" choice.

So, numbers. Same price either 2x5 models or 5x2 models, base 160 points (same as Chosen), 5x combi flamers 11 points/55 points (same as Chosen). BUT if you want to get jiggy with it you can take 5x stormshield for  25 points,  which gives 5x 3+ Invuln save ???!?!!!!. So either base 215 or 240, either way for essentially the same attacks/damage as the chosen (kind of, add maybe 1 kill for multiple Vet Sergeants). You would have to take them as Ultramarines (Because Chronus). 

A second alternative is, heh, a 10 model Death Company with 10x hand flamers/chainswords.

Base 17 points, add 8 point for the hand flamers, 250 points total. They come stock with chainswords. 10d3 flamer - attacks, average 20, wounding on 5's against T4, so 7 wounds, 4+ save is 3-4 shooting kills (oddly the bolt pistol is worse BUT the plasma pistol is better for cheaper [7 points for the pistol(240 points total)/8 for the flamer]). The thing is, think Anti-30 model Tarpit and if the tarpit is T3, 6+, then the 20 flamer attacks just jumped to 8-9 models down compared to the Plasma Pistol's 5-6 kills. The shining example is what you get on the charge. FORTY attacks on the charge (+1 chainsword/+1 Black Rage), averaging 26 hits, 13 wounds, 6-7 kills on 4+AP, total average 10 kills on subMEQ. Added bonus a 6+ FNP which works on mortal wounds (it's specifically written so the Black Rage ignore damage effect happens AFTER the mortal wound damage is allocated). I wouldn't use this unit as anti tarpit specific, I would put plasma pistols on everyone which gives it really good anti-tarpit capability and more utility against other targets but less survivability on overwatch.

A BA company vet unit. No added bonuses. Stock BA don't get anything special anymore.

Looking at Spahs Wulfs. Because Jason WILL play 8th edition.

Wolf Guard I think come out on top of all the above units, let me roll the numbers to make sure. 10x Wolf Guard is 160 points. Wolf Guard though have an odd way of adding/taking away weapons. They come stock with boltgun/bolt pistol. They can replace the boltgun for combi weapons. So 5x combi weapon is another 55 points. They can ADD a melee weapon for free. So add chainswords for 0 points.This means even the combiflamer models have chainswords. They can then REPLACE the bolt pistol with stormshields/plasma pistols OR Chainsword. So the combi flamer guys can keep both a combiflamer AND chainsword AND get a stormshield for 5 points/3+invuln save (240 points) or take a combiflamer AND 2x chainswords(+2 attacks). The other 5 guys can keep their boltgun AND Pistol AND get a free chainsword all for 0 points, OR they can replace the pistol with ANOTHER chainsword (+2 attacks). So all told for 215 points you get 5xd6 flamer hits, average 17 hits, 4+ on the wounds for 8 wounds, 4+ on the save for 4 kills. Add 10 bolter shots at 4+ for 5 hits, 2-3 wounds, 1 kill, Add in ANOTHER 10 bolter shots at 3+ for 6-7 hits, 3 wounds, 1-2 kills totalling 6 shooting kills subMEQ, and 40 attacks on the charge (because you can now charge after rapid fire), because of the 2x chainswords for each model. That will average 26 hits, 13 wounds, 6 kills subMEQ. All told for 215 points 12 models killed subMEQ. Add in the morale check of 1 kill on average for 13 models. Ya, that's better value for the points.

A Deathwatch kill team, for this type of anti-tarpit purpose, is set up kind of the same. With some exceptions. Although it LOOKS like they have to give up their boltgun for a chainsword, this actually isn't the case because it specifically says TWO items from the deathwatch equipment list and ONE of those 2 items is.. A boltgun. For free. So you can take 10x deathwatch veterans (w/ Watch Sgt/BlkShield), 5x combi flamers/Chainswords and 5x boltguns/chainswords for 190 points/245 points. OR you could notice the Other bit with the 4x heavy flamers for 190 points/258 points. The point there, is the  2 shot rapid fire boltgun at +4 BS on the combiflamer equal out the S5/AP-1 on the heavy flamers, bearing in mind you lose the chainsword AND the +4 BS rapid fire? The first option is 5d6 flamer hits, 10 +4 bolter shots, 10 more +3 bolter shots and 33 attacks on the charge. Door #2 is 4d6 S5 flamer hits at -1 AP, 10+3 bolter shots, and 27 attacks on the charge. Tab A is 17 flamer hits, 8 wounds, 4 kills, 5+6 bolter hits, make it 6 wounds 3 kills, 22 hits on the charge, 11 wounds, 5 kills on attack. All told 12 kills Item number 1. Plan B 14 S5 hits, 9 wounds, 6 kills heavy flamer, 6-7 bolter hits, 3 wounds, 1-2 kills, 17-18 hits on the charge, 9 wounds, 4 kills totalling 11 kills subMEQ. So taking 4x heavy flamers w/o the added +4BS boltgun AND the chainsword is not as good as keeping the combi flamer/boltgun AND chainsword. for cheaper. However you are paying 245 points for the same amount of kills as the Wolf Guard which is only 215. It depends on what transport you have this unit in.

Last, but not least, what do the Grey Knights have in their little pocketses. First thing first. I don't know why but GW thinks you should pay 7 more points per model for 1 point of leadership. Looking at the Purifier squad vs the Purgation squad. 26 points per for Purifier, 19 points per for Purgation.

Grey Knights are weird. All the really cool weapons have to be stacked in their cheapest point cost units. Don't ask, don't care. Anway, since we are looking for cheap anti-tarpit lets look at a 10 model purgation squad. 190 points for the models, 4x Incinerators for 56 points. Add 6 more stormbolters for 12 points and dual wielding fachions for 0 points makes all told 258 points. Bear in mind this unit can TELEPORT around (worth it) OR can teleport the Land Raider (no chronus) it was just in to somewhere else on the battle field [Boggle???!!!]. So. 4d6 S6/Ap-1 makes 14 hits, 9 wounds at AP-1 is 5-6 kills, plus Not 6, Not 12, but TWENTYFOUR bolter shots (6 rapid 2 stormbolters), makes 16 hits, 8 wounds, 4 kills. Add in the 13 nemesis force falchion attacks, 8-9 hits, 4 wounds, AP-2, say 3 kills, and the other 4 attacks, 3 hits, 1-2 wounds, 1 kill. All told, not counting the 1 mortal wound smite makes 14 tarpit kills subMEQ plus at least 1 averaging 4 kills (15-18 total average kills) from morale you have a unit that is equivalent to Khorn Zerkers. But you are paying 258 points for it.

So, what's the balancing between this unit and stock Spahs Muhrins? Overall they are almost the same, sure the stormshields takes the company vets over the top, the weapons added for Space wolves is cool beans, Death Company is as Death Company does, A-T is not Deathwatch's cup of tea and the GK bring the pain but is there anything in the CSM toolbox that adds balance?

Tune in tomorrow, to hear the rest. Same bat time, same bat channel.

[peter.cosgrove]

I take horrible pictures.

[peter.cosgrove]

So here is a fresh, never before seen Khorne Zerker unit, the modeling is completely unique, never before seen in Any other model, ever. No really. As you can see they are painted in the traditional and Completely Unique to ONLY Khorne zerker units of bright red and gold

[peter.cosgrove]

No really. Totally unique.