Curiousity... Orcs with shields?

[Grensche]

As I sit here at work thinking about Orcs, I noticed that I see some Orcs equipped with shields. Then I look at the photos of my Orc Choppaz and thought "maybe I should get some Orcs with sword n' boards.

Nothing against duel wielding choppaz, that gets me going like a fat kid at a buffet but the REAL question is... Is it worth having some extra defense? If so, where can I get my greasy sausage fingers on some beloved sword n' board Orcs??

[smashthedean]

At this point, I would say it isn't worth it. That said, we do have a new edition entering public playtest by the end of the year so it might be worth holding out and seeing what parry will look like in 2.0.

[Fixxer]

One of my favorite builds in 8th edition was a 35 block of Big Un's with sword and board with the general and a BSB in there and the battle banner +1 CR on the units standard. This gave me 6 static combat rez. Now, if the general Waaghs on the charge for the additional D3 plus the charging combat rez, your at anywhere between 8-10 static. At that point your opponent needs to swing at an Orc lord, Big Boss or a big un who are WS 4 T 4 with light armor and shields... tough to get a lot of rez there to even tie a combat. This means most likely that you will auto break units on the charge. Mind you M4 is unlikely you charge, but I've seen people charge that unit only to bounce off and give the orcs free reign.

 

As for the new edition and T9A, I dont know how well this would work but hey... perhaps you could get close to a build similar. In that case, they'd be worth looking into. 

 

[Grensche]

2 hours ago, smashthedean said:

At this point, I would say it isn't worth it. That said, we do have a new edition entering public playtest by the end of the year so it might be worth holding out and seeing what parry will look like in 2.0.

Yeah I'm also curious as to whether parry will help out or be left alone. I'm just focusing on getting my army set up and later if I find sword and shields worth it I'll add some into my army.

1 hour ago, Fixxer said:

One of my favorite builds in 8th edition was a 35 block of Big Un's with sword and board with the general and a BSB in there and the battle banner +1 CR on the units standard. This gave me 6 static combat rez. Now, if the general Waaghs on the charge for the additional D3 plus the charging combat rez, your at anywhere between 8-10 static. At that point your opponent needs to swing at an Orc lord, Big Boss or a big un who are WS 4 T 4 with light armor and shields... tough to get a lot of rez there to even tie a combat. This means most likely that you will auto break units on the charge. Mind you M4 is unlikely you charge, but I've seen people charge that unit only to bounce off and give the orcs free reign.

 

As for the new edition and T9A, I dont know how well this would work but hey... perhaps you could get close to a build similar. In that case, they'd be worth looking into. 

 

That's what I really want with my Orcs because I wasn't really sure if my Choppaz will be cut down to size instantly, but like with what smashthedean said, we'll see what T9A do with parry in 2.0.

[Zeev]

Yeah ORCS are already way below the curve on damage output. Go for spears or paired weapons. Shields are for goblins...they get maximum use out of it with their poor output and terrible ws

[TheBeninator]

I like Fixxer's approach to looking at the Combat Rez. I watched him make some moves at OFCC which to me looked like suicide, but once he explained the guaranteed CR, it was actually quite brilliant. I am starting to realize that static CR is actually really powerful because you cant fluff it.

Also, consider your unit size. If you are running at less than horde formation, you are giving up 33% output, if you are running at a horde size, you are only giving up 25%.

[Grensche]

On 8/30/2017 at 10:15 AM, Fixxer said:

One of my favorite builds in 8th edition was a 35 block of Big Un's with sword and board with the general and a BSB in there and the battle banner +1 CR on the units standard. This gave me 6 static combat rez. Now, if the general Waaghs on the charge for the additional D3 plus the charging combat rez, your at anywhere between 8-10 static. At that point your opponent needs to swing at an Orc lord, Big Boss or a big un who are WS 4 T 4 with light armor and shields... tough to get a lot of rez there to even tie a combat. This means most likely that you will auto break units on the charge. Mind you M4 is unlikely you charge, but I've seen people charge that unit only to bounce off and give the orcs free reign.

 

As for the new edition and T9A, I dont know how well this would work but hey... perhaps you could get close to a build similar. In that case, they'd be worth looking into. 

 

Even though I read this and liked. I still had no clue what you explained.. One of these days after having experience in playing and if I ever bump into you. I'll need you to explain this to me.

But from the gist of what everyone on this thread is saying, shields don't really matter based on the current rules. I just like the looks of it because it looks cool. :0)

[TheBeninator]

Shields do matter! I think the turn off people have to orcs and shields is that goblins do a great job of dieing in droves to hold your opponent there, the classic "tarpit". Orcs with shields servers a similar purpose to "tarpit" as it provides them no damage causing offensive value. Since orcs have choppas, it is pretty common thinking to do whatever you can to fully capitalize on that special rule.

Orcs with shields do not fully capitalize on offensive damage HOWEVER, remember every good front/front clash is as much about offence as it is defense. Fixxer's point is that if you build enough static combat res, which is the number you count up at the end of close combat, so for instance.

+1 for charge

+3 for ranks

+1 for banner

+1 for war banner

+1 for BSB

+ whatever for Waagh

This amount is a guaranteed (static), regardless of how badly you roll (unless you start losing ranks). The sweet thing about this is that you can crash into a lord or something that has 6 attacks. Even if all 6 attacks generate unsaved wounds and you do nothing in return, you still win the combat and could potentially run that lord down.

Shields provide the benefit of making that final combat res gap larger, by denying your opponent from doing significant damage to you.

You don't have to kill your opponent, only cause them to flee.

 

[valourunbound]

It's difficult for us ratmen to do math like that. 

In 7th it was worthwhile, but now it goes something like this:

My CR: 3 rank, banner.

Their CR: Bazillion kills.

Steadfast don't care.

[TheBeninator]

Quite true, stubborn and steadfast are the bane of this orc build.

[Andrewgeddon]

2 hours ago, TheBeninator said:

Quite true, stubborn and steadfast are the bane of this orc build.

Isn't stubborn / steadfast the bane of any build though? I would think that 35 HW/S Orcs would have a fairly good chance of being the Steadfast unit is most scenarios too? T4 and Parry should go a long way towards keeping your ranks up, yeah?

[TheBeninator]

I totally agree. I guess I am thinking more of the 50x units of trash, which for valorunbound, is a staple.

[smashthedean]

I consider a 50x unit of trash to be little more than a different style of chaff. That block isn't there to win a combat against your combat unit, it's there to keep you occupied so that he can focus his attention on combats that count and then maybe end up getting a flank/rear charge on your block if you're still tied up, or maybe just divide and conquer you to death. That said, a 50x block of trash still isn't going to stand up to a dedicated combat block for very long, even with Steadfast in the mix.

[Fixxer]

23 hours ago, TheBeninator said:

Shields do matter! I think the turn off people have to orcs and shields is that goblins do a great job of dieing in droves to hold your opponent there, the classic "tarpit". Orcs with shields servers a similar purpose to "tarpit" as it provides them no damage causing offensive value. Since orcs have choppas, it is pretty common thinking to do whatever you can to fully capitalize on that special rule.

Orcs with shields do not fully capitalize on offensive damage HOWEVER, remember every good front/front clash is as much about offence as it is defense. Fixxer's point is that if you build enough static combat res, which is the number you count up at the end of close combat, so for instance.

+1 for charge

+3 for ranks

+1 for banner

+1 for war banner

+1 for BSB

+ whatever for Waagh

This amount is a guaranteed (static), regardless of how badly you roll (unless you start losing ranks). The sweet thing about this is that you can crash into a lord or something that has 6 attacks. Even if all 6 attacks generate unsaved wounds and you do nothing in return, you still win the combat and could potentially run that lord down.

Shields provide the benefit of making that final combat res gap larger, by denying your opponent from doing significant damage to you.

You don't have to kill your opponent, only cause them to flee.

 

Thanks for breaking this down Ben, looks exactly right. 

 With the 9th Age, the Waagh does not give static combat rez, it gives another bonus which might be as good for dealing damage and getting that CR to stack. I do think it works as well in the new edition even though the general consensus is that Orcs arent good with shields.  Frankly, I find them to be the best... cheap, T4 LA and Shields is darn good.  With only 3 RnF models to target some models will have to target T5 Characters which will lower their chances even more of getting wounds through. I find the build to be completely viable in this edition, its a unit that your opponent will need to take out for in order to obtain enough VP to beat you, most likely. 

The reason I say 35 was because they were Big Uns in the last edition in order to get the banner on the standard and have WS4. Now with the newer rules,  I believe you can get the standard on a normal orc unit now and shields which will effectively make them WS4 as most units will need 4s to hit with the parry rule. You can run regular orcs bigger than big uns due to pt cost. 25mm bases do get a little unwieldy if they are too large, be careful with that.  

Also, I didnt typically want this unit to BE charged... It was out there to CHARGE with a WAAGH for a game winning attack. With all the chaff O and G have, this unit can get lost in a sea of threatening green and wait for its opportunity. Again, not a sure thing but practice will help to make this a very strong strategy, IMO. 

[smashthedean]

Let's do an experiment:
 

Orcs x 40: shields, full command
vs
Generic WS4/S4/T4/I3/1A/4+AS Opponent x 30
I3 - Opponent attacks 11 times, 5.5 hits, 2.75 wounds, 2.28 unsaved, 2 wounds
I2 - Orcs attack 11 times, 5.5 hits, 2.75 wounds, 1.84 unsaved, 2 wounds

or

Orcs x 40: paired weapons, full command
vs
Generic WS4/S4/T4/I3/1A/4+AS Opponent x 30

I3 - Opponent attacks 11 times, 7.37 hits, 3.69 wounds, 4 wounds
I3 - Orcs attack 16 times, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2.68 unsaved, 3 wounds

The experiment shows us that against a superior opponent, shields are a better choice. I'm not going to run the numbers, but I can pretty much tell you that conversely against an inferior opponent, paired weapons or spears would be a better choice. I can also tell you that Common Orcs aren't really a superior unit to that many things in the game so overall you're probably going to be better off running them with shields. Now 'Eadbashers on the other hand...

[Grensche]

4 hours ago, smashthedean said:

Let's do an experiment:
 

Orcs x 40: shields, full command
vs
Generic WS4/S4/T4/I3/1A/4+AS Opponent x 30
I3 - Opponent attacks 11 times, 5.5 hits, 2.75 wounds, 2.28 unsaved, 2 wounds
I2 - Orcs attack 11 times, 5.5 hits, 2.75 wounds, 1.84 unsaved, 2 wounds

or

Orcs x 40: paired weapons, full command
vs
Generic WS4/S4/T4/I3/1A/4+AS Opponent x 30

I3 - Opponent attacks 11 times, 7.37 hits, 3.69 wounds, 4 wounds
I3 - Orcs attack 16 times, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2.68 unsaved, 3 wounds

The experiment shows us that against a superior opponent, shields are a better choice. I'm not going to run the numbers, but I can pretty much tell you that conversely against an inferior opponent, paired weapons or spears would be a better choice. I can also tell you that Common Orcs aren't really a superior unit to that many things in the game so overall you're probably going to be better off running them with shields. Now 'Eadbashers on the other hand...

From reading this (and my knowledge and experience is very little) the results are minimal between Shields and Paired Weapons, except Paired Weapons suffered a bit more than Shields.

So, is it basically up to the person whether they want shields or paired weapons then?  I'll still get some Orcs with shields because I can't get enough of Orcs.

I got a fever... And the way to cure it.. Is to have more Orcs!

Gotta have more Orcs!

[Prophecy]

I still vote double hand weapon. Most infantry isn't toughness 4. Don't they have +1 strength in the first round of combat for the old choppa rule? I think the numbers would favor double hand weapon vs. basic line infantry if we include the extra strength and the fact most are toughness 3.

[smashthedean]

I'm counting for the S4 in the first round of combat in those tests. Also most infantry are not T3. Here's the rundown for the army books on choices for Core infantry:

BH: T4
DH: T4
DE: T3
ID: T4
DL: T4
KoE: T3
OK: T4
SA: T4
OnG: T4
WDG: T4
VC: T3
UD: T3
SE: T3
VS: T3
EoS: T3
HE: T3

So you have an even split, 8 armies with T4 and 8 with T3. Of the T3 armies, 3 of the 7 are elite Elf armies that would likely win a head-to-head against Orcs and 2 of the 7 are Undead armies that aren't breaking from combat and are raising troops back so winning by a small margin doesn't matter. Orcs with paired weapons are going to beat Rats and Humans in combat, but that's about it unless they're going against more chaff-like units such as Skinks or Scraplings. Here's a combat against some Elves to prove the point:

[520] Orcs x 40: shields, full command
vs
[500] Citizen Spears x 30: full command

I5 - Elves attack 21 times, 14.07 hits, 4.64 wounds, 3.11 unsaved, 3 wounds
I2 - Orcs attack 11 times, 5.5 hits, 3.69 wounds, 3.06 unsaved, 3 wounds

[520] Orcs x 40: paired weapons, full command
vs
[500] Citizen Spears x 30: full command

I5 - Elves attack 21 times, 17.43 hits, 5.75 wounds, 4.77 unsaved, 5 wounds
I2 - Orcs attack 16 times, 8 hits, 5.36 wounds, 4.45 unsaved, 4 wounds

 

[smashthedean]

All of this said though... I don't think Common Orcs with shields are a good unit choice. I think 'Eadbashers with paired weapons are a much better way to spend your Core points.

[valourunbound]

26 minutes ago, smashthedean said:

I'm counting for the S4 in the first round of combat in those tests. Also most infantry are not T3. Here's the rundown for the army books on choices for Core infantry:

BH: T4
DH: T4
DE: T3
ID: T4
DL: T4
KoE: T3
OK: T4
SA: T4
OnG: T4
WDG: T4
VC: T3
UD: T3
SE: T3
VS: T3
EoS: T3
HE: T3

So you have an even split

 

Well that's not entirely true.

DL have T3 core that is used, as do OnG and WDG. SA sometimes use skinks (I think). That makes paired weapons a bit more likely to be useful.

[Prophecy]

My last tournament game had a full block of skinks and kroxigors. I didn't use any sauras warriors.

[smashthedean]

I recognize that about DL, but I'm pretty sure Sirens would wreck Orcs as well. Also VC and UD have T4 infantry available to them (Ghouls or Terracotta Skeletons).

[smashthedean]

1 minute ago, Prophecy said:

My last tournament game had a full block of skinks and kroxigors. I didn't use any sauras warriors.

Neat.

[TheBeninator]

2 hours ago, Prophecy said:

My last tournament game had a full block of skinks and kroxigors. I didn't use any sauras warriors.

How did that turn out for the skinks?

[Zeev]

Mathed out the only units core orcs beat, point for point, are undead and dread elf spears. That actually gets worse when using sword and board...then you only beat the undead. It also takes 9 rounds of combat to do so on average...