6 week "tourney"

[SPaceORK]

17 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

29 to 8 

Also how did you score 28? Primary 4, secondary 3, first blood, linebreaker, stwl are all one for a total of 10 points...

I'm assuming you meant you won 10 to like 2?

[SPaceORK]

So I just spoke with T the To and his intent was to stop things that are no longer a problem because of keywords. He wasn't 100% on how things worked and wanted to prevent anything like tau/eldar, tau/nids, sm/chaos, etc. 

If your army shares a keyword, have at it.

So D, your khorne demons/chaos knights are fine.

[InfestedKerrigan]

1 hour ago, Spaceork said:

Dude, stop reading to much into this. :) He has six months total 40k experience. And he's getting alot if information from me. Which is why he even knows what "Superfriends" is. Or Leaf blower, flying demon circus, necron air, Demi company, trip knights, nidzilla, lash princes, Draigo wing. Man... I've had alot of army's...

Anyways he has heard of the terror that was inflicted by the OP lists of 6&7th and doesn't quite know how to word rules to rule things like that out.

I will double check on things, but if you have an army you wanna bring, like renegade knights and demons, then go right ahead.

And from what I hear, ITC no longer has the "no PL 31+" rule so bring your greater brass scorpions, greater demons etc.

Oh, this post. I didn't see this one. Yeah, this one sounds catty.

[SPaceORK]

1 minute ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Oh, this post. I didn't see this one. Yeah, this one sounds catty.

I didn't mean to sound angry! It was an accident!

[InfestedKerrigan]

1 hour ago, Spaceork said:

Also how did you score 28? Primary 4, secondary 3, first blood, linebreaker, stwl are all one for a total of 10 points...

I'm assuming you meant you won 10 to like 2?

 

4 primary, 12 controlled 4 out of 6 secondary objectives, 1 fb, 1 lb, 1 stwl, 9 Tact Obj.

But everyone needs to be playing on the same page.

[peter.cosgrove]

Ok.. i don't even understand the thought process here.

It's only 20 dollars for 6 games, that's 3.3 dollars a game, that doesn't even make the table rent for the floor space. It's an event by a local game store to support the community. It's a chance to interact with other players. It's a chance to play.

Go, do it. Why even start thinking sour grapes.

[SPaceORK]

1 hour ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Ok.. i don't even understand the thought process here.

It's only 20 dollars for 6 games, that's 3.3 dollars a game, that doesn't even make the table rent for the floor space. It's an event by a local game store to support the community. It's a chance to interact with other players. It's a chance to play.

Go, do it. Why even start thinking sour grapes.

People rent tables?!?

[SPaceORK]

4 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

 

4 primary, 12 controlled 4 out of 6 secondary objectives, 1 fb, 1 lb, 1 stwl, 9 Tact Obj.

But everyone needs to be playing on the same page.

Well did you win primary (tactical objective cards) And secondary (objectives)? First blood, linebreaker, slay the warlord?

Edit: awww you said you scored 9 points. So your opponent only scored how many?

[peter.cosgrove]

umm. In order for a game store to have space for tables generally they are paying rent or lease that would be larger than the typical comic book or game store. They pay that additional rent for places for people to play the games that they buy. They rely on the additional income that they get from people staying to play at the game store by selling small consumables that are consumed while people are playing. It's difficult for game store operators to meet margin and still support events with the higher rent that they generally have to pay for the larger space. Depending on the location you can expect anywhere from 1800 to 2300 for a small game store with table space. Some stores can pay 3k to 5k. A table is generally 3x7, for Warhammer its 4x6, figure 6 tables minimum with ADA compliant spacing 3" between tables, sometimes more for seating. so the additional space for even a small store adds something like at least 400 square feet to the location, not counting the capital cost for the tables/chairs. Since game stores need/want the additional space for the tables they have to pay a higher cost for the space for which they are paying additional rent. The tables and the space that they occupy are a MONEY LOSS for the store. There is no product being shelved in that space to generate the additional income for the space to pay for itself. For a store generally operating 7 days a week, figure  dollars per table per month, 6 tables could be around 400 to 600 dollars opportunity cost per month for the additional table space. At 6.6 dollars per table (two players paying 20$ each across 6 weeks), once a week across 4 weeks is only about 27 dollars. Which doesn't even come close to how much the game store operator has to pay in rent for the additional table space.

So yes.. Tables are rented, people have to PAY for tables to play on.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Spaceork said:

People rent tables?!?

I'm told this is a California thing. I know Knightfall, at one point, tried to get people to rent tables for casual play, and that didn't go over so well, so they dropped that idea. That store's gone now, though not for this reason.  

I think the local game store charging for table space is a good way get your customers to go to another store, at least as far as 40k is concerned. I understand charging a Reservation fee to hold tables when you aren't present, or in having league dues for more organized play, but being charged for drop-in play when the game store has free space for you to play, is somewhat unreasonable. 

Sure, the store could be a jerk about it and try to squeeze their players at every oppertunity. But then the players need to ask themselves if they rather buy their stuff online, at another store, or just quit the hobby. 

 

[SPaceORK]

Yea, I've never encountered this in any store in Oregon... Granted I've only been to the three in Southern Oregon and Eugene, Salem. And of course guardian games.

The Medford Astral Games has... like 6 tables. Grants Pass has 1-3 depending on the day. None are pay to play.

But yea, wouldn't pay to play at any store. That seems like a horrible way to foster grow within a community. And lazy. Great customer service and the ability to generate excitement for your products seems like a much better way to increase sales.

[peter.cosgrove]

you guys aren't getting it. That's a table fee, not the cost of renting a table. A table fee is where you pay an amount, say 2 to 5 dollars per day of gaming to play a game at a table. Table rent is the cost of putting additional tables into a store for people to play at.

when you play pool at a bar for 50 cents or 75 cents or a dollar, or 5 dollars an hour that's a table fee.

Gaming stores have a high turnover. One of the reasons for the high turnover compared to other stores is because of the additional cost of having to pay at a loss for the additional space for the tables for people to play at. It's a matter of good intentions = bad business.

 

[scottshoemaker]

11 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

you guys aren't getting it. That's a table fee, not the cost of renting a table. A table fee is where you pay an amount, say 2 to 5 dollars per day of gaming to play a game at a table. Table rent is the cost of putting additional tables into a store for people to play at.

when you play pool at a bar for 50 cents or 75 cents or a dollar, or 5 dollars an hour that's a table fee.

Gaming stores have a high turnover. One of the reasons for the high turnover compared to other stores is because of the additional cost of having to pay at a loss for the additional space for the tables for people to play at. It's a matter of good intentions = bad business.

 

Actually, we are getting it.  If this is how this store is operating, that's fine for that store.  What Spaceork is saying is that isn't typical.  Most stores operate with the concept that the tables are a draw, an added benefit to come into the store and buy product from them rather than buy online or elsewhere.  "Pay to play" is usually used in conjunction with special events and tournaments.

[peter.cosgrove]

you mean like.. paying 20 dollars for a 6 week tournament? maybe?

And, no, I don't think people are getting it because my original comment of "that doesn't even make the table rent for the floor space" was somehow turned into "game stores charge a table fee to play." Which if you actually pay attention to the use of English i/e english comprehension, you will find actually isn't the case. That's why I specifically used the term "floor space".

The floor space is rented, the game store has to rent that floor space, the floor space is used to place tables, ergo the tables have a table rent which is an opportunity cost.

My follow-up comment regarding the 3.3 dollars per person per week not meeting that floor space cost was referring, I suppose a bit too generally, given the audience, in hindsight, to the perceived context that the game store operator was putting together an event to support the gaming community and was charging a nominal fee. The nominal fee being charged was considered to be a point of contention. I was interjecting into the discussion, perhaps a tad lacking objectivity, I will admit, that the nominal fee, in my humble opinion, was an honorable fee for the support of the community event and was using as a supporting viewpoint, perhaps causing a bit of obfuscation, given the audience, that the nominal fee did not cover the cost to the game store operator for the amount of additional floor space necessary for the game store operator to place the tables for people to play the community event on. I have always felt this was a universally known concept among gamers, that it is important for gamers to support game stores with their business as game stores support their gaming community by utilizing their resources (manpower, money, material, time and space) to bring a multiplicity of gaming individuals together for said community events, because otherwise the game store will go out of business because of the unique financial challenges typical of a game store with tables.

I will obviously have to adjust any further discussion points of mine to accommodate the fact that there seems to be people who lack this rather fundamental concept of the relationship between game stores and gamers.

I will, however, conclude by saying that one of the known results of charging people a certain amount of monetary assets for a community event is the concomitant effect that people, after being charged for an event, as opposed to a free to play event, are more likely to carry their participation throughout the event to it's conclusion. Which has the known effect of reducing the amount of frustration to the players in the community event by ensuring players are available to play.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Gaming stores have a high turnover. One of the reasons for the high turnover compared to other stores is because of the additional cost of having to pay at a loss for the additional space for the tables for people to play at. It's a matter of good intentions = bad business.

 

I find this to be a common misconception of a game store. When you compare it to, say a grocery store, it seems like a bad business model. Instead, you need to identify the resource of a game store: gamers. Gamers are a special "breed" of consumers that keep the game store afloat. A successful game store will focus on increasing the number of gamers in the local area. This in turn will allow other, nearby game stores, to also succeed. A game store is closer to running a church than it is to running a store, you want to focus on making followers that believe in paying for games at the local store.  A game store is a farm for new gamers. 

And this is important because the game store really doesn't offer anything that the gamer can't get elsewhere for cheaper. Almost all games can be purchased cheaper online and gaming space certainly doesn't require a game store. 

Mind you, this logic assumes that not everyone is a gamer. When we reach the point where all consumers are gamers, then the game store concept will be obsolete, as all stores will have sections for gamers which will make the dedicated game store seem silly.

 

[peter.cosgrove]

yes, game stores are like the military or opera. Game stores don't make money, they are what you spend money on.

Misconception though, I wouldn't necessarily agree. I would say that game stores have a life cycle. Once they pay off the business loan to start the business which generally takes 3-4 years they have a choice to make, either keep going or stop. Once a game store no longer has that additional drain of the loan they can generally keep going for as long as they want to. That first 4 years though is drainingly harsh on whoever has signed the loan.

The outliers of the business model usually include people who are gamers who want to start a game store, start a game store, and then about 2 years in figure out how hard it is on them in person and in resources to keep it afloat. 

I do think it's appropriate to state that generally game stores have a high turnover rate right about that 4 year/paying off the loan mark. The parking requirements alone can make/break a game store based on location.

[peter.cosgrove]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

the game store really doesn't offer anything that the gamer can't get elsewhere for cheaper. Almost all games can be purchased cheaper online and gaming space certainly doesn't require a game store.

Except... for table space. Most particularly, table space for multiple games at the same time. That is the unique characteristic of gaming stores.

In order to take full advantage a game store must needs develop a mature systematic approach to having as many people playing games at one time, and across multiple time blocks in the business week. Generally by offering a mutiplicity of games and supporting each game with additional stock/shelf space/gaming time blocks. And paying very close attention to both mature and new gaming systems to ensure maximum exposure and density to both. The failure of which can break a game store operator.

[Guest]

Just now, peter.cosgrove said:

Except... for table space. Most particularly, table space for multiple games at the same time. That is the unique characteristic of gaming stores.

In order to take full advantage a game store must needs develop a mature systematic approach to having as many people playing games at one time, and across multiple time blocks in the business week. Generally by offering a mutiplicity of games and supporting each game with additional stock/shelf space/gaming time blocks. And paying very close attention to both mature and new gaming systems to ensure maximum exposure and density to both. The failure of which can break a game store operator.

No, table space is much cheaper elsewhere. I can play in my home, or at some resturaunt or bar. I've even debated playing at the local library. Heck, with good weather, I could even play on a table in the park. There's no need to play these games at the game store. If you look at this as just profits, the game store won't offer play space at all, which looks good on paper until they realize that their are not very many gamers in their local area (because the store is killing it's own target audience). 

The game store needs to create the want, they need to make you want to play in the game store. You need to want to buy the games locally, rather than on the internet. They need you to support their game store, and view this support like they would supporting a church or charity, rather than a business. And both charities and churches are businesses, but they are not viewed as such because they focus on growing the community (or perhaps just reshaping it). 

You are correct that a store with table space will often get a systematic approach to organization of their play space, though I'm not sure how much that is about maximizing profits. I know for GG, most of their content on their calendar was put their by gamers that were volunteering their time to create a weekly event. I've also been told that having weekly events themed around games makes it much easier to restock those games, since it creates predictibility in purchases even if it doesn't generate additional purchases. 

[Guest]

And, for the record, the $10 GG league. None of the money goes to GG, per say. It goes to prizes and terrain maintenance. Prizes are GG gift cards, so it goes to the store in that respect, but the league doesn't have a fee for the use of their tables. And they do allow pick up games for non-league members during the same time slot, just no prize support for people not in the league.

[peter.cosgrove]

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

No, table space is much cheaper elsewhere. I can play in my home, or at some resturaunt or bar. I've even debated playing at the local library. Heck, with good weather, I could even play on a table in the park.

well, sure, kind of. Each type of location has it's own unique challenges. It's always been a go to to play at a church, churches always have tons of space and always have tables and chairs. You do have to be a member of a church to bypass the rental of the facility and with enough standing to either have the keys to the church or compel either by scheduling/availability a facility manager to be present to open the facility. The same thing applies to  rental or HOA communities that may have a community event building available. Playing in a library generally has space challenges, given that the vast majority of floor space is dedicated to shelving. Libraries do usually have a small room available for events that can be requested on a weekly basis and have the parking availability (same with churches and rental/HOA facilities). Playing at home, that's a bit different. To have 12+ players playing on 6+ tables at 4x6 feet per table requires having the aforementioned 400 square feet relatively clean/neat/tidy plus the capital cost of building 6+ tables. 400 square feet of empty space dedicated to just gaming with the lighting/heating/cooling is just another form of opportunity cost imbedded in the rent/mortgage of the home. and you have the additional parking challenge. 12+ vehicle parking at one home.

A restaurant or bar will generally require either an up front fee for the space for 12 people at 6 tables or require that the organizer of the event, to reserve that much space, guarantee a certain amount of purchased product. And you have the additional requirement of both transporting/set up of the 6+ tables, adding the tabletop to make the 4x6 board for games and figuring out how to protect the tables from incidental damage, either by using the facilities tablecloth/aprons or bringing your own. A restaurant or bar also may or may not have the parking available. depending.

Playing in a park. Bob will get you, every time. It's always been a thing to play, for example, chess or checkers in a park. Some parks even have small areas dedicated to playing these games with permanent tables/seating. Chess pieces are relatively small, cheap and weatherproof. But playing in the wind with lots of little breakable pieces and paper that can get soggy in the rain and, most importantly, the lack of security addressing interesting bystanders who may or may not have nefarious intentions especially when considering a game that charges 40$ for only 5 pieces... 

Union halls, granges, dance halls and armories, always an option. Colleges and universities, also an option. Again you usually have to be a member with standing to utilize the facility w/o having to pay a rental fee. And you may be faced with at least a damage deposit and event insurance requirements.

The necessity then, will be that the organizer of the event at any of these locations, as opposed to a gaming store, BECOMES the event coordinator and must thereby assume the duty of bringing together the multiplicity of players and resources. Of course, modern media and automation is a great assist. Personally I would rather not, given that a game store will do it for me. 3.3 dollars a day fee for someone else to handle all the resource and facilities management and event coordination is more than worthwhile.

[Guest]

The Guardian Cup, the GG tournament, isn't run by the store. We have non-paid gamers dedicating their time to running the event. Though I could be wrong, you'd have to ask CaptainA about running those.

[peter.cosgrove]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

And, for the record, the $10 GG league. None of the money goes to GG, per say. It goes to prizes and terrain maintenance. Prizes are GG gift cards, so it goes to the store in that respect, but the league doesn't have a fee for the use of their tables. And they do allow pick up games for non-league members during the same time slot, just no prize support for people not in the league.

It's hard for people who don't have the experience of seeing the GG monthly league to it's conclusion to see how the league is done. It is a very good system. For those people who don't know, you pay 10$ to play for generally 4-5 weeks at 1 day a week. On the league day (Wednesday)GG gives a discount to the players for warhammer purchases at the counter. At the end of the month there is a prize draw. The tickets for the prize draw: When you play a game you get 1 ticket, so you are guaranteed 4 tickets if you play all 4 weeks. If you win you get 1 ticket. Best painted army, voted by the players, gets 5 tickets at the end of the month. Best sportsman, voted by the players in a combination of gaming demeanor/bearing and table manners (measuring accuracy/time management) , gets 5 tickets. Warlord (most wins) gets 5 tickets. All the tickets go into the draw and the draw prizes are GG gift certificates for amounts which very closely total match the overall amount paid by the players at 10$ per person. At the end of the month the prize draw is done. First ticket drawn gets the highest gift certificate, and generally theres about 2 gift certificates for every 3-4 players. Once you have gotten a certificate in the draw you can't get anymore if your ticket is drawn. In that case a ticket is continued to draw until a player who has not already gotten a certificate gets drawn. And so on.

The gift certificates ARE for GG, so eventually, yes, the money goes to the store.

[peter.cosgrove]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

The Guardian Cup, the GG tournament, isn't run by the store. We have non-paid gamers dedicating their time to running the event. Though I could be wrong, you'd have to ask CaptainA about running those.

The GC we pay for the space. That's imbedded in the entry fee. Which includes pizza. And prizes.

[scottshoemaker]

3 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

you mean like.. paying 20 dollars for a 6 week tournament? maybe?

And, no, I don't think people are getting it because my original comment of "that doesn't even make the table rent for the floor space" was somehow turned into "game stores charge a table fee to play." Which if you actually pay attention to the use of English i/e english comprehension, you will find actually isn't the case. That's why I specifically used the term "floor space".

I will obviously have to adjust any further discussion points of mine to accommodate the fact that there seems to be people who lack this rather fundamental concept of the relationship between game stores and gamers.

 

Umm, thinly veiled insults directed at your audience do little to make us want to be open minded about your point.

Berating the general audience on grammar semantics doesn't help...

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, peter.cosgrove said:

The gift certificates ARE for GG, so eventually, yes, the money goes to the store.

Yes, but that's like saying the purchase of 40k models in the store pays for table space - which it does, so charging an extra fee for gaming tables does seem like like squeezing your customers. Price of the GG league pays for prizes and terrain, it doesn't directly go to the store, even if both the prizes and the terrain are purchased through the store. Does that make sense?

And the discount is specifically for people that pay league dues AND play in the store on that given game night - merely being in the store on game night with paid league dues affords no discount. That said, there's not a ton of oversight here, so I'd imagine that some don't notice the requirement to play in the league. 

The goal is to grow the hobby, not gouge the players. And, as mentioned, growing the hobby increases sales in a longterm capacity.