6 week "tourney"

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

But I'll stick with respawning cultists, zombies and excessive amounts of demon princes/malific lords. Maybe a Alpha Legion slaanesh havoc squad with meltas that'll deepstrike and double-tap.

On this note, have you looked into running Warpsmiths with Combi-meltas? They're BS 2+ and already have a melta gun, so with a comb-melta, they get 2 melta shots (they also have a flamer in there and a power axe). Plus they're be both Alpha legion characters and are Infantry, so they qualify for both the Alpha legion funky warlord trait, and the sneaky deployment option. Finally, you could charge after all this (if overwatch wasn't a huge concern), and possibly defeat a CHARACTER, VEHICLE, or MONSTER with a Warpsmith, which would allow you to attempt a Chaos Boon roll, since they are characters (which potentially allows for a "free" daemon prince). 

For cost, a Warpsmith with Combi-melta is only 95pts, while 5 havocs with just 2 melta guns is 99pts (though havocs would likely have 4 melta guns, not two, and might even have a combi-melta too). 

[SPaceORK]

6 hours ago, paxmiles said:

On this note, have you looked into running Warpsmiths with Combi-meltas? They're BS 2+ and already have a melta gun, so with a comb-melta, they get 2 melta shots (they also have a flamer in there and a power axe). Plus they're be both Alpha legion characters and are Infantry, so they qualify for both the Alpha legion funky warlord trait, and the sneaky deployment option. Finally, you could charge after all this (if overwatch wasn't a huge concern), and possibly defeat a CHARACTER, VEHICLE, or MONSTER with a Warpsmith, which would allow you to attempt a Chaos Boon roll, since they are characters (which potentially allows for a "free" daemon prince). 

For cost, a Warpsmith with Combi-melta is only 95pts, while 5 havocs with just 2 melta guns is 99pts (though havocs would likely have 4 melta guns, not two, and might even have a combi-melta too). 

Well, I like your suggestion. I actually had to relook at the warpsmith just to see what was up with him. But other than the 2+ BS he doesn't have much going for him.

For 160ish points and 2cp, I get havoc's that can "deepstrike", move in closer and dump 10 melta shots into something. Since I'm going to take prescience anyways, I can probably be in range with a demon prince to do so.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SPaceORK said:

Well, I like your suggestion. I actually had to relook at the warpsmith just to see what was up with him. But other than the 2+ BS he doesn't have much going for him.

For 160ish points and 2cp, I get havoc's that can "deepstrike", move in closer and dump 10 melta shots into something. Since I'm going to take prescience anyways, I can probably be in range with a demon prince to do so.

Well, the slaanesh ability to shoot twice is 2 CP and the Alpha Legion ability to "deep strike" with infantry is another 1 CP, so 3 CP unless the plan is a Dreadclaw for deep striking. The Daemonprince is not infantry, and has no deep strike option, so while you can either summon one daemonic ritual or transform a character into one with chaos boon, there's no option to deep strike one otherwise. So to psychic buff a DS team, you'd need either another DS infantry psyker (socerer with JP or TDA) or you'd need an infantry psyker that came via the alpha legion deployment option (which limits what else you can bring).  

As for the Warpsmith, he's about 2/3 the price of those havocs and has 4 melta shots at BS2+, while the Havocs would have 10 shots at BS 3+. I agree, the havocs are probably stronger here, but 3 things. First, not every opponent will have a unit that needs to be hit by a melta team, so the Warpsmith has the advantage of being a lower point draw from the army, and is very useful in other roles, while the melta havocs are wasted points if the opponent lacks a titan or similar unit to deal with. The second issue is that lots of things have a penalty to hit when targeting them, which is where higher BS shines. Third, Warpsmiths are HQ slots, so they are easy to add to an existing detachment, while heavy slots are less easy just because aren't usually required.

 Anyway, I don't run alpha legion, so grain of salt.

I will note that the Rapier with a C-beamer is only 76pts per team. Not great at close range, but for long range, it is one of the better AT units that is cheap. If you can catch an enemy unit over 48" away, it strikes at S10, -3 ap, and deals 3d3 damage. Only real downside to the weapon is that in the current rules the gun itself is firing and it isn't infantry, so legion traits and most stratagems won't apply (still a legion model, so Chaos Lord aura would apply). A pretty strong alternate to a deep strike melta, especially since this one has the advantage of not needing (or being able to use) any CP. And sure, they could just come closer, but them being so far away is the entire problem. For Chaos, we want them closer because we have so few long range weapons. 

[SPaceORK]

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Well, the slaanesh ability to shoot twice is 2 CP and the Alpha Legion ability to "deep strike" with infantry is another 1 CP, so 3 CP unless the plan is a Dreadclaw for deep striking. The Daemonprince is not infantry, and has no deep strike option, so while you can either summon one daemonic ritual or transform a character into one with chaos boon, there's no option to deep strike one otherwise. So to psychic buff a DS team, you'd need either another DS infantry psyker (socerer with JP or TDA) or you'd need an infantry psyker that came via the alpha legion deployment option (which limits what else you can bring).  

 

Yes you are right, 2cp for them to double-tap.

Ok so here is my current list that I expect to bring against IK:

Zombie Harvest
 Battalion Detachmentl- Alpha Legion

Daemon Prince with Wings, Intoxicating Elixir, Malefic talon

Daemon Prince with Wings, Malefic talon

30x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Slaanesh

30x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Slaanesh

20x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon, Mark of Slaanesh

Havocs with Combi-melta, 4x meltas, MoS

Havocs with 4x LasCannons, MoS

Battalion Detachment  - Death Guard

Daemon Prince of Nurgle- with Malefic talons, The Suppurating Plate, Wings

DaemonPrince of Nurgle with Malefic talons, Wings

Typhus 

20x Poxwalker

13x Poxwalker

10x Poxwalker

10x Poxwalker

Supreme Command Detachment

5x Malefic Lords

2000pts, 10cp

So as you can see I have little room for more Hq's. Now I consider the havocs squads, Tyhpus and a few poxwalkers as my units I can play around with. Tyhpus would usually just be replaced by another DP. He's here currently to make zombies s/t5 and 3+ws if I make a big unit via "Dead walk again" stratgem.

The havocs are usually replaced by foetid blight drones. As I don't expect the anti-psyker assassins I don't need them. The las cannon havocs are just there cause they have long reach and might throw a few extra wounds on things. The melta havocs throw 10 melta shots at bs 3+ anywhere on the board turn one. And with 12" deployment, 12" move and 18" range on a demon prince I'm pretty sure I can get prescience on the havocs from anywhere.

Now the warpsmith brings far to little to this list. Yes he's cheaper and has bs 2+. But he has 6 less potential shot and is trash in melee. Yes there won't always be a hard targets for the meltas, but they are throw away anyways, so they can sit on an a objective or something. And I'm not really worried about wasting point as I respawn cultists and make zombies via dead cultists. I make about 50-300 points of "free" models a game.

 

[Guest]

Agree the warpsmith would be lacking in that list. He's not trash in melee, quite decent, actually, but your list doesn't need more melee even if he were amazing at it.

List looks annoying to face. Though army doesn't have any really tough units, so your tactic mainly revolves around  the opponent not having enough anti-infantry.

A world eaters army of just berzerkers on foot with no special weapons would easily mulch this army. But since that list isn't common, you should do fine.

 

[SPaceORK]

27 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Agree the warpsmith would be lacking in that list. He's not trash in melee, quite decent, actually, but your list doesn't need more melee even if he were amazing at it.

List looks annoying to face. Though army doesn't have any really tough units, so your tactic mainly revolves around  the opponent not having enough anti-infantry.

A world eaters army of just berzerkers on foot with no special weapons would easily mulch this army. But since that list isn't common, you should do fine.

 

He may be good for you but 3 power axe attacks and 2 at 4/0/1 seem a bit weak on paper. But I noticed you run a few in your list, but I assume for the hellbrutes?

This army is great for my opponent!  They get to kill all kinds of things. And I would assume most armies can't deal with 100+ models turn one? And if they don't then I get to start the respawn/make zombies process while the important stuff gets dps-ed down by smite and demon princes.

I'm pretty sure this army would wreck an army of just bezerkers. An whole army of t4/3+? Heck yes!

[VonVilkee]

Yeah 4 deamon princes would do some work as the chaff gets in the way... those pox walkers are tough for their stats/ points especially with typhus!

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

He may be good for you but 3 power axe attacks and 2 at 4/0/1 seem a bit weak on paper. But I noticed you run a few in your list, but I assume for the hellbrutes?

This army is great for my opponent!  They get to kill all kinds of things. And I would assume most armies can't deal with 100+ models turn one? And if they don't then I get to start the respawn/make zombies process while the important stuff gets dps-ed down by smite and demon princes.

I'm pretty sure this army would wreck an army of just bezerkers. An whole army of t4/3+? Heck yes!

I really need to rewrite my list so ignore that.

Warpsmith is decent in context to his cost. He's only 76pts. He'll be as good or better than your havocs in melee.

As for berzerkers, you have no shooting. That's their main weak point. Each model has 6 attacks per fight phase at S5. Not sure on the detachments, but 120 berzerkers should easily fit in 2k(720 attacks). Since your army is melee reliant, you are their ideal opponent.

[Guest]

Oh, for your list, spork, do the princes have paired talons, or are you just marking that they have stock weapons?

[SPaceORK]

9 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Oh, for your list, spork, do the princes have paired talons, or are you just marking that they have stock weapons?

Ohhhhh they have talons...The only choice for dp's!

And I'm fully aware of what zerkers stats are. They are awesome! They would just get wrecked by this list. No shooting? Your right except for the ridiculous amount of psychic shooting. And I don't mind if zerkers charge into my cultists, cause that's all they will get to charge. Zerkers kill my cultists, make zombies, get charged by dp's and slaughtered.

[InfestedKerrigan]

He can only select one unit a turn for super zombie mode. That'll have some weight on target priority, for sure.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Ohhhhh they have talons...The only choice for dp's!

And I'm fully aware of what zerkers stats are. They are awesome! They would just get wrecked by this list. No shooting? Your right except for the ridiculous amount of psychic shooting. And I don't mind if zerkers charge into my cultists, cause that's all they will get to charge. Zerkers kill my cultists, make zombies, get charged by dp's and slaughtered.

Psychic shooting doesn't exist anymore. Regarding your "massive" use of psychic powers, I only count 10 psykers. Of those, only 15 powers per turn. It's not a low number, but considering they don't have great range, you need to be pretty close to the berserkers in order cast. And none of the psykers can deep strike.

And World Eaters have both a Stratagem to deny psychic powers, an Artefact that allows a model to deny as if they were a psyker, and they could potentially summon daemons. Of these, only the stratagem would apply to my proposed "120" bezerker list, but still, they aren't helpless Vs psykers. Though, honestly, denying your limited psykers seems like a waste of effort. 

If just talking about short range things you can do while locked in combat, the berzerkers all have pistols....probably more effective that your psyker powers anyway, especially you are doing mortal wounds to a unit that doesn't even have invulnerable saves. Honestly, I think the princes would be better off with plasma pistols rather than the psychic powers, most of the time. 

But, sure, you get the charge on the bezerkers with a daemon prince. Congrads, you have your 7 or so attacks. They all hit. Maybe they all wound, and maybe only 1 berserker saves. Congrads, you killed 6 models worth about 56pts. The 14 berserkers left in the squad get to swing. Two thirds of their attacks will hit, giving 28 hits, A third will wound, so 9 wounds, and the prince will save 6 of those, taking 3 wounds. Now, berserkers will fight again, in the same phase. They do the same thing, bringing the daemon prince down to 2 wounds remaining. Next turn, is theirs, so you take 14 pistol shots, 8 hits, maybe 2 wounds, likely both saved, and then we fight again. If the berserkers swing first, they kill you, if you swing first, your prince dies more slowly. 

And here's the other thing, and this matters. You getting charge may seem like an advantage, but really the berserkers want that. It means they have 4 fight phases to kill you, before you can use psychic powers again, or use things that happen at the end of the movement phase (like the tide of traitors stratagem). Plus, since not all charges will succeed, it means they fight only some of your forces, not all at once. Because against your army, the smart play would be to wait for you to come to them. That would give you the choice of either coming to them in sections, or wasting lots of turns and forcing this game into a melee that only lasts for 1-2 turns, both work well for the berserkers. 

I suppose, we could stalemate the armies, and you could just shoot from afar with lascannons all game, and seek a victory with your 1 squad. Might even win that way, but at the same time, it would mean admiting that the rest of your army can't cope with berserkers. 

[Guest]

But anyway, it's all hypothetical. No one's going to bring such an army. Might end up with a similar issue against tyranid genestealer armies, or slaanesh daemon armies, or really against any horde infantry with melee focus and the ability to realistically wound your DPs.

I will note, though, that as local meta power creep goes, your army makes me seriously consider bringing hundreds of mortar teams. I'd suggest toning down the army a bit, just because you don't want every game to become this hardcore. The list is hardcore in that it exploits game mechanics and requires the opponent to bring a really broken list in order to win. Because this game is very easily not fun if the local players only sport hardcore lists. Your list is raising the bar for that, which in turn, raises the bar for casual lists. This has been an issue in every edition, the more OP the tournament lists are, the more OP the casual scene is. And OP casual play isn't good for the hobby. In my eyes, your list is one that makes you "That Guy."

An all berserker list, would also be a "that guy" sort of list, and wouldn't be fun to play against. An all World Eaters list could be fun, and it would likely include berserkers, but playing against 120 identical berserkers is a waste of time. 

 

[SPaceORK]

19 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

But anyway, it's all hypothetical. No one's going to bring such an army. Might end up with a similar issue against tyranid genestealer armies, or slaanesh daemon armies, or really against any horde infantry with melee focus and the ability to realistically wound your DPs.

I will note, though, that as local meta power creep goes, your army makes me seriously consider bringing hundreds of mortar teams. I'd suggest toning down the army a bit, just because you don't want every game to become this hardcore. The list is hardcore in that it exploits game mechanics and requires the opponent to bring a really broken list in order to win. Because this game is very easily not fun if the local players only sport hardcore lists. Your list is raising the bar for that, which in turn, raises the bar for casual lists. This has been an issue in every edition, the more OP the tournament lists are, the more OP the casual scene is. And OP casual play isn't good for the hobby. In my eyes, your list is one that makes you "That Guy."

An all berserker list, would also be a "that guy" sort of list, and wouldn't be fun to play against. An all World Eaters list could be fun, and it would likely include berserkers, but playing against 120 identical berserkers is a waste of time. 

 

Nope, we're playing this.  : ) 

I'll hopefully be in Portland this December I believe and we can play this out. 

Also I am "that guy". I very much enjoy extremely competitive play and enjoy others who do also. Do I hope it starts an arms race? Absolutely, for the players who want to do that. And if people are participating in said arms race they are buying more models.

Now thats not saying it should be super competitive all the time, that's why I'm working on Orks. Games should be played to the level in which people want to play. But if I can increase that level across the board, believe me, I'm going to do that.

Edit: Saw your hundreds of mortar teams comment. I'm playing against that today, we'll see how that goes. I think that's a viable strategy against zombies.

[SPaceORK]

You know what Pax... I like you. So I don't want to argue with you about this. Your views in things are vaaaaastly different than mine. 

Let's just agree that we both like 40k, even if our approaches to an enjoyable game are different.

Also I would really like to meet the Ordo crew when I'm in Portland next, including yourself.

[InfestedKerrigan]

If you girls are done kissing...

[Guest]

 

2 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

You know what Pax... I like you. So I don't want to argue with you about this. Your views in things are vaaaaastly different than mine. 

Let's just agree that we both like 40k, even if our approaches to an enjoyable game are different.

Also I would really like to meet the Ordo crew when I'm in Portland next, including yourself.

Thanks. 

The issue I see with your list is that most armies can't realistically take enough anti-horde to cope with it. It's not simply a matter of specialization, most factions can't cope with this. And because the Character rule prevents them from damaging your characters. Give it a few codexes, I think your list will be more reasonable as the power creep sets in. As is, the lack of stratagem access is already unbalancing some games.

As for being compeditive. Yeah, I'm bad at that. Or rather, I actively try to make the game fun for both players. If it feels like they need the "win" more than I do, they can have it. 

[VonVilkee]

 lists like the above are the reason I'm loving transuranic arquebus from the mechanicus... multi damage sniper rifles are amazing! But that list is tough to work around for sure... good board control, protects the killers, good strategems and units to make use of them tough nut to crack. I'm interested to see how the malefic lords are brought into line... seems like sub 40 point psykers are getting weakened smite... so 28mm interested if they will go up in cost or have their smite weakened... maybe a restriction per detachment or commander. 

[SPaceORK]

16 hours ago, VonVilkee said:

 lists like the above are the reason I'm loving transuranic arquebus from the mechanicus... multi damage sniper rifles are amazing! But that list is tough to work around for sure... good board control, protects the killers, good strategems and units to make use of them tough nut to crack. I'm interested to see how the malefic lords are brought into line... seems like sub 40 point psykers are getting weakened smite... so 28mm interested if they will go up in cost or have their smite weakened... maybe a restriction per detachment or commander. 

I think robots plus arquebus would be a solid counter actually... Tons of shots and great snipers! Thankfully the people playing those armies moved or didn't play those armies.

The malific lords were less than stellar. But I didn't really have targets for them either, other than 180 LD10  Valhallan conscripts. Would rather have had another blight drone. 

 

[SPaceORK]

Alrighty IK! I'm winner of my town... Am I playing you?

[VonVilkee]

1 hour ago, SPaceORK said:

I think robots plus arquebus would be a solid counter actually... Tons of shots and great snipers! Thankfully the people playing those armies moved or didn't play those armies.

The malific lords were less than stellar. But I didn't really have targets for them either, other than 180 LD10  Valhallan conscripts. Would rather have had another blight drone. 

 

Agreed malefic lords are good but not super great. Complain worthy? Sure but totally can play around them and they can ruin synergies in your own list, or they take up a detachment... meh

[Guest]

Personally, I think the malefic lords are crap and I was not complaining about them at all.

Personally, I'd replace them with heralds of slaanesh or nurgle. Would benefit your list more and have better rules and better psychic powers.

[SPaceORK]

12 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Personally, I think the malefic lords are crap and I was not complaining about them at all.

Personally, I'd replace them with heralds of slaanesh or nurgle. Would benefit your list more and have better rules and better psychic powers.

Foetid Blight Drone is what I would replace them with. They have over-performed in every game I've played them. 

And in a different, less cutthroat list, 2-3 blight drones follwed by a Nurgle herald for s7/9" flamers seems awesome.

[InfestedKerrigan]

2 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Alrighty IK! I'm winner of my town... Am I playing you?

Colby and I don't play until next week. His availbility due to a tournament in Sac he is going to created a conflict in scheduling.

[SPaceORK]

4 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Colby and I don't play until next week. His availbility due to a tournament in Sac he is going to created a conflict in scheduling.

I'm ok with this. I'm trying to get paint on as many models as I can. That way we have a halfway decent looking finals. Does Colby have a painted army? I remember him having one.