InfestedKerrigan Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Yes, IA AM has renegades and heretics rules. And some OP sheeit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 1 hour ago, InfestedKerrigan said: Yes, IA AM has renegades and heretics rules. And some OP sheeit Guard does it way better, they cost a bit more but they are far more than just CP batteries like the renegades and heretics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 37 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: Guard does it way better, they cost a bit more but they are far more than just CP batteries like the renegades and heretics. CP batteries, huh? Not really interested in units just for CP. I want some CP, but 5 or 6 is plenty for total CP, especially for CSM. No, what I'd want from traitor guard would be the option to take some decent weapons on what are basically cultists. For CSM, our non-chapter troops choices are pretty terrible. Not worthless, but I'm not fielding troops in the above list because I think they waste points, even if they gain CP for the army. And it's not just the unit entry, it has to be put into context with our lack of transportation options. Boggles the mind that GW hasn't made a new CSM transport. FW did redesign the Dreadclaw, but only to make it loyalist friendly, not for the benefit of CSM... Anyway, I'm not upset, but I am searching for another troops option for my CSM. Might just switch to World Eaters, since mostly Khorne anyway. Those Bezerkers are certainly worth their points and would be much better as Troops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Yeah the renegades have stupid cheap really good hq (malefic lords prolly going up in cost), then anything that gets good weapon options are either weirdly limited (disciples and command squads have to take more bodies and get less weapons but hit good) or hit on 5+. They are pointed fair enough for it but they are just really cheap chumps or really good for the points. If you cherry pick with chaos space marines they are awesome by themselves not so much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 55 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: If you cherry pick with chaos space marines they are awesome, by themselves not so much... Am I the only one that thinks that every unit should be awesome and good for their points? Blows my mind that GW would purposely include inferior units and create a situation where "cherry picking" is a critizism of list creation. I understand complaints of unfluffyness, but complaining that a player is only fielding good units seems unreasonable. Especially when players are also often critisized for having too "soft" lists. Sorry, just a pet peeve with that phrase "cherry picking" with regards to 40k lists. Not even sure if that was your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 22 minutes ago, paxmiles said: I understand complaints of unfluffyness, but complaining that a player is only fielding good units seems unreasonable. Especially when players are also often critisized for having too "soft" lists. To be fair, those two criticisms are generally coming from two completely different groups of people, each usually directed at the other group. It's relatively rare to find one person making both complaints. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 2 hours ago, paxmiles said: Am I the only one that thinks that every unit should be awesome and good for their points? Blows my mind that GW would purposely include inferior units and create a situation where "cherry picking" is a critizism of list creation. I understand complaints of unfluffyness, but complaining that a player is only fielding good units seems unreasonable. Especially when players are also often critisized for having too "soft" lists. Sorry, just a pet peeve with that phrase "cherry picking" with regards to 40k lists. Not even sure if that was your point. GW has figured that out much more so but FW still hasn't... a 30 pt hq who casts full smite, and becomes a melee beat stick after a perils is fine in the context of the renegades and heretics they have vey little else to do damage. It wasn't even a huge issue when everyone was index but now that there are certain synergies based on chaos faction, and multiple detachments to finagle access to stratagems with stuff that hasn't been reworked for them gets awkward. Some would call it cherry picking but there are definitely some units that are straight up more powerful while others rely on synergies and command points. The renegades and heretics feel written with the idea that the army would just be the list provided... it can get a little ridiculous combining it with the rest of chaos. Which is very doable if you ate willing to sacrifice "obsec" which with this edition being killier I'd be more willing to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 And in fairness, I have yet to actually see the FW index for AM. Ordered it (and the Chaos and the Xeno) on the 10th, 20 days later it still isn't here....They aren't late per say, I ordered on a friday, so their 13 working day estimate just includes more weekends than normal. Still, really annoying. Got a chance to peek at the Xeno one in person, and found a good free copy of the CSM one online, but still haven't actually seen the AM version, so I'm completely in the dark regarding how OP they are or not. Haven't really looked enough at the Xeno one to evaluate it, but I think that Chaos one is balanced, or possibly even underpowered in places. FW still caters to the apocalypse scale battles, so at 2k I'm not finding anything overly broken. Lots of things are too expensive to realistically field, while others are just a waste of points. Even that Cerberus, which is fearsome in shooting vs big targets, is really not very impressive defensively considering the 470pt price tag - and it really can only slay a few models per turn, no matter how weak those few models are. And then of course, there are lots of rules that don't do anything at all because FW can't seem to proof-read rules before publishing them. Regarding FW and GW, as I understand it, they opperate out of the same building and are owned by the same company. If one is doing something stupid, the fact that the other allows it to happen is fault of them together. Saying GW has their act together and FW still slacking, that is disassociation not reality. One group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Sorry, rambling. This off topic conversation did give me an interesting idea, though. With FW having those Daemon Lords of War, it is possible to field a chaos summoning army that consists only of a Supreme Command Detachment and reserve points. Those LoW daemons are characters, so they can summon, as can the 3-5 HQ for the supreme command detachment. Doubt it would be compeditive, but it is an interesting thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 35 minutes ago, paxmiles said: Sorry, rambling. This off topic conversation did give me an interesting idea, though. With FW having those Daemon Lords of War, it is possible to field a chaos summoning army that consists only of a Supreme Command Detachment and reserve points. Those LoW daemons are characters, so they can summon, as can the 3-5 HQ for the supreme command detachment. Doubt it would be compeditive, but it is an interesting thought. and this is where the cheap renegades come in they can bulk out your deployment zone get you some Cps for handy strategems with some Astartes characters... a web is created... I was able to afford a renegade knight, 3 Astartes characters (look at those warp smiths especially on dark abayants) and a brigade... I used legion cultists from the Astartes book and filled the rest with renegades... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 28 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: and this is where the cheap renegades come in they can bulk out your deployment zone get you some Cps for handy strategems with some Astartes characters... a web is created... I was able to afford a renegade knight, 3 Astartes characters (look at those warp smiths especially on dark abayants) and a brigade... I used legion cultists from the Astartes book and filled the rest with renegades... Sounds bland. Is it fun to play? By warpsmiths, do you mean those FW Hellwights? Been trying to figure out what models those represent. Those hellwrights are crazy expensive for HQs. Comparable in cost to mounted chaos lords and daemon princes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 7 hours ago, paxmiles said: Sounds bland. Is it fun to play? By warpsmiths, do you mean those FW Hellwights? Been trying to figure out what models those represent. Those hellwrights are crazy expensive for HQs. Comparable in cost to mounted chaos lords and daemon princes. It was you pay for way better stats and the ability to 1d3 heal titanic models. Yeah I meant hell wright they are legion and can be marked. I happen to like mass numbers of dudes and my focus was the knight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, VonVilkee said: It was you pay for way better stats and the ability to 1d3 heal titanic models. Yeah I meant hell wright they are legion and can be marked. I happen to like mass numbers of dudes and my focus was the knight. That regular Warpsmith can already heal titanic wounds, just only <legion> titanic models (so heals the Cerberus and the Lord of Skulls just fine, but not Renegade Knights). The regular Warpsmith also has a normal Power Axe and Bolt Pistol, making them eligible for a few of the CSM artefacts (Axe of Blind Fury or Blissgiver) and the Daemon Shell Stratagem. But sure, I totally see where the hellwrights would be fun if you wanted an alternate to a chaos lord or daemon prince for your big HQ. I am curious if FW intends to produce models for these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 If adding right, the Hellwright is 133pts and the Hellwright on Dark Abeyant is 178pts. Meanwhile, a Daemon Prince is 156pts without wings and 180pts with wings. Mainly posting as an excuse to do the math for myself. I need to get more familiar with these rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 8 hours ago, paxmiles said: If adding right, the Hellwright is 133pts and the Hellwright on Dark Abeyant is 178pts. Meanwhile, a Daemon Prince is 156pts without wings and 180pts with wings. Mainly posting as an excuse to do the math for myself. I need to get more familiar with these rules. Yeah they are spendy but the abilities are really good the extra movement with that mean gun is cool and they are <legion> with mortal wound capabilities in close I took a deamon prince and sorcerer as a high command to get access to csm strategems then a mixed brigade for CPs finally the lord of war aux for the knight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 minute ago, VonVilkee said: Yeah they are spendy but the abilities are really good the extra movement with that mean gun is cool and they are <legion> with mortal wound capabilities in close I took a deamon prince and sorcerer as a high command to get access to csm strategems then a mixed brigade for CPs finally the lord of war aux for the knight... They just seem bloated for points, like a new player list where they take every upgrade (and the most expensive upgrades) on every vehicle because they don't have the models to properly field a 2k list, but want to have a 2k list anyway... For example, you are paying 7pts for the Soulburner Pistol, which looks nice until you recall that in this edition, players much choose to fire either pistols or other weapons, and can't fire them together in the same shooting phase. So while the weapon is nice, paying points a weapon that can't be used with the other weapons you are paying points for, is just bloat. I'd rather have a 0pt bolt pistol that I can spend CP to make deal Mortal wounds (Daemon Shell) when I actually need it. Plus the warpsmith can swap their pistol for something else (pistol or combi-weapon). I could swap the Bolt Pistol for a Combi-melta and have two melta shots instead of 1. Or a combi-flamer for 2d6 auto-overwatch hits. And the Warpsmith is already bloated for points. So making an extra bloated version of the warpsmith seems like a mistake. That said, if you have the Knights or non-legion Daemon Engines, I do see why you'd consider this guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 11 hours ago, paxmiles said: But sure, I totally see where the hellwrights would be fun if you wanted an alternate to a chaos lord or daemon prince for your big HQ. I am curious if FW intends to produce models for these. The closest they've come so far is a Special Character for the Horus Heresy line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 Or, you know, AdMec characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 Just noting that it's odd that FW is producing rules for models that don't exist, since GW very clearly has moved away from doing this. And the issue is one of copyright. I could start producing Hellwright models, and then contest GW/FW's right to make Hellwright models. That's why all the GW products have moved away from creating rules with no models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 List stuff again. Tinkering again with the idea of cherry picking an army for leadership reduction and exploitation of low leadership. Definitely "cherry picking" in the truest sense. I was noting that Tzeentch Daemons have an option to sieze control of an enemy unit with psychic powers, which is resisted by leadership. Slaanesh also have one that inflicts mortal wounds based on how many points a roll exceeds the target's leadership. Also, and only somewhat unrelated, do models created with psychic powers require reserve points? Like if I turn something into chaos spawn, do I need to pay points for that model? It really doesn't say and it comes up a fair amount in the Chaos books. The summoning rules are very clear that they are reserve points and the Chaos Boon stratagem is very clear that it doesn't require points to turn friendly characters into spawn/princes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 3 hours ago, paxmiles said: Also, and only somewhat unrelated, do models created with psychic powers require reserve points? Like if I turn something into chaos spawn, do I need to pay points for that model? It really doesn't say and it comes up a fair amount in the Chaos books. The summoning rules are very clear that they are reserve points and the Chaos Boon stratagem is very clear that it doesn't require points to turn friendly characters into spawn/princes. Unless specifically stated otherwise, anything that creates a new Unit costs Reinforcement Points in Matched Play. I think it was specifically mentioned in the CSM FAQ, but yeah, you pay Points unless it says you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 Okay, just tinkering with that leadership route. On the opposite end, is that there is a warlord trait in the Free Rulebook which adds +1 leadership to those within 6" of the warlord, so it should easy enough to counter a leadership reducing force via this trait and having a few of those models that share their leadership with others. Also amusing how strong that Black Legion Trait would be against a heavy use of things that target leadership. A Black Legion Daemon Prince with that Warlord trait can have leadership 12...and a Black Legion Dark Apostle can spread Leadership 11 around (which also creates an interesting loop, since models use his leadership and then are buffed +1, while his leaderships includes the +1...no serious arguments here, but it's funny to me). Beating 11 on 3d6 is still do-able, but it would certainly be harder. That Treason of Tzeentch psychic power where I control units, on the other hand, only rolls 2d6 so it would become almost impossible. Tempted on the Black Legion faction now...I'm so indescisive. I suppose it's mostly a matter of this only being game 3 of 8e...Speaking of, was thinking about it. I only play about once a week, maybe less. So my hobby which I spends tons of money on is really only being played, at most, 52 times per year. If I divide my army cost by 52, I see my cost per game per year. Such a depressing realization.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 Okay, switching to Black Legion. Not for in-game value, but for painting reasons. First, was tinkering with how to portray other marks with my paint scheme. Those Raptors, for example, I wanted that Icon of Despair for the Leadership penalty, but doing so means mark of nurgle, but my chapter logo is pretty clearly khorne. So, thinking I should adapt each deity symbol with a smile, but also replace the red with another color for each deity (red for khorne, yellow for tzeentch, green for nurgle, blue for slaanesh, and black if deity-less). Then it hit me, Abaddon is marked by all the dieties, so I could paint him up as Voltron... that's too awesome, right? And it fits his weapons too...Gotta do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 6, 2017 Report Share Posted November 6, 2017 Black Legion 2k (Smiling Skulls) Battalion Detachment (+3 CP) HQ Warpsmith (Mark of Khorne, Bolt Pistol, Meltagun, Flamer, Power Axe) 45+17+9+5=76pts HQ Warpsmith (Mark of Khorne, Bolt Pistol, Meltagun, Flamer, Power Axe) 45+17+9+5=76pts Troops Chaos Space Marines (10, Mark of Slaanesh, 9 Bolters, 1 Autocannon) 130+20=150pts Troops Chaos Space Marines (10, Mark of Slaanesh, 9 Bolters, 1 Autocannon) 130+20=150pts Troops Chaos Space Marines (5, Mark of Khorne, 4 Bolt Pistol+Chainsword, Bolt Pistol + Power Fist) 65+12=77pts Dedicated Rhino (Mark of Khorne, Combi-Bolter) 70+2=72pts Fast Raptors (10, Mark of Nurgle, 7 Bolt Pistol + Chainsword, 2 Meltagun, 1 champion with Power Fist + Bolt Pistol + Icon of Despair) 170+34+12+10=223pts Heavy Support Vindicator (Mark of Khorne) 135pts Subtotal 959pts Spearhead Detachment (+1 CP) HQ Chaos Lord on Juggernaut (Juggernaut's Bladed Horn, Paired Lightning Claws) 125+10+12=147pts Elites Chaos Decimator (Mark of Khorne, 2x Decimator Storm Lasers) 90+50=140pts Elites Chaos Decimator (Mark of Khorne, 2x Decimator Storm Lasers) 90+50=140pts Elites Chaos Decimator (Mark of Khorne, 2x Decimator Storm Lasers) 90+50=140pts Subtotal 567pts Super Heavy Auxilery Detachment (+0 CP) LoW Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer 470pts Subtotal 470pts Reserve Points: 4pts Total: 2,000pts. 7 CP. Warlord = Juggernaut Lord Warlord Trait = Exalted Champion (+1 attack) Artefact on Juggernaut Lord = Talisman of Burning Blood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 6, 2017 Report Share Posted November 6, 2017 Yeah, no summoning :( Not enough of the models are done anyway. Don't have Abaddon yet either, but will probably include him eventually. List concept is about the same as before, but I'm branching to different marks for different unit types. CP is up. Lightning Claws on the juggerlord. Started modelling them for a Nightlords variant, but then got caught up with black legion. Raptors had a few issues last game, one of which being overwatch, which really chewed up those little raptor units I was running. Switched to a 10, but with only the one unit. Had issues with plasma overheats, and was very impressed with meltas on the warp priests, so they have double those. Spendy unit. Mark of Nurgle does two things for this unit. First, makes that icon grant -1 to enemy leadership for mild synergy with the cerberus. Secondly, there's a stratagem for Nurgle Infantry, which allows me to revived deceased models. spendy, but it means I can bring back the champion or melta guns if they get cut out of the squad. Black Legion have pretty large bonuses to basic Chaos Marines in the form of being able to advance and fire bolters. They also have a Stratagem which allows them to reroll all hits for a given phase. Mark of Slaanesh allows them the option to fire a second time in the same phase, so I can combine the two (3CP total) and have a turn of pretty solid anti-infantry, though I hardly expect to need it most games. Autocannon is just because I might need to park them somewhere, and I don't want them unable to do anything. For now, dropped the Berzerkers. Needed a troops slot for the battalion, plus neither unit is finished...Anyway, troops function the same, with warpsmiths riding inside too, unless I need them elsewhere. Got a vindicator from Pretre. Curious how they work in this edition. Cheaper than the predator or decimator. Speaking of, still waiting on that FW order of books. I hate relying on internet rules for models. Sent them a message, hopefully it arrives soon, but more likely, they never sent it - I have bad luck with FW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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