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Smiling Skulls Space Marines


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I keep running into that problem where I want to field everything I own in one list... doesn't work. Thinking about a list like this, just due to how easy it would be to run:

 

Black Legion Spearhead (+3CP)

HQ  (Warlord) Abaddon 240pts

Heavy Vindicator 135pts

Heavy Vindicator 135pts

Heavy Vindicator 135pts

Heavy Vindicator 135pts

Flyer Helldrake (Helldrake Claws, Hades Autocannon) 138+17+25=180pts

Subtotal 960pts

 

Chaos Supreme Command Detachment (+1 CP)

HQ Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury 340pts 

HQ Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury 340pts 

HQ Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage 340pts

Subtotal: 1020pts

 

Total 1,980pts, 7 Command points. No Artefacts selectable.

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My game 4 of this edition was that Black Friday Apocalypse. Myself and Happycamper with about 8000pts vs Peter's about 8000pts. We went first and blew all his big things off the table (in hindsight, our team may have been unbalanced in match up). That said, neither player on my team was very concerned about the mission objectives, so Peter won by holding 2 of 3 three objectives at the end of our game. Game lasted 3 full turns (which is pretty good for apocalypse). Was very fun. 

Happycamper definitely had the best painted models on the table. Peter's would be second best. And mine were just unpainted...

My take aways.

First, Game was my Black Legion vs Peter's Black Legion. Both Warlords were Abaddon. We tried to get them in melee together, but a Baneblade killed Peter's Abaddon before the charge phase (only about a 7" charge, we could have made it....). Anyway, was good for learning Abaddon's tricks and how black legion traits work in practice. 

Ran terminators for the first time in this edition. Could have been the dice, but they did very well for their cost. Need to tweak the units, but I liked them a lot. 

Ran 4 vindicators, but didn't get a chance to use their stratagem because I space them too far apart. They were fine, more or less. They do last a while in melee due to T8, so they need to be fielded with a counter charge unit in order to prevent them from trying up long range shooting at character models. I'm also giving serious thought to getting them Combi-flamers as a charge deturent. 

Due to the sides being initially unbalanced, Peter got to run my hellbrutes. Had 5 of them. They ran into the same durability issues I've been seeing when I was fielding them (they just don't have the speed or the durability to get to melee, and die far too quickly to shooting). 

I ran only two traitor guard units, a Baneblade and a Hellhound. Though since Happycamper was fielding Cadians, we just considered them part of his army and he ran them. The hell hound's explosion was certainly helpful. Their Inferno cannon was quite strong for anti-charges, but not that effective as a shooting attack. Might look into the Multi-melta hull mount option.   The Baneblade was iffy. I mean, Happycamper had one that was great, but mine has Heavy Flamer Sponsons, but we didn't recall this until turn 3, so it was suboptimal. Baneblade did slay Abaddon, so there is that. It did get me thinking about my Tallarn, as their legion trait allows them to advance and fire Heavy Weapons as Assault weapons, for TITANIC units, so I could have a very fast super heavy that mostly torches things....

Fielded two Predators with Twin Lascanons and no Sponsons. Very Meh. Two Rhinos were fielded, but I really didn't have much to transport that could be transported. In hindsight, I think I want to try running building transports, probably bastions. I ran Karanak, me he was Meh too. Him and Abaddon we poised to assault the other Abaddon, but the baneblade denied that. I ran Warpsmiths, but due to bad deployment, they were worthless. 

Two Vengeance Batteries, one Punisher and one Icarus Quad Lascannon. Punisher was definitely iffy, but it was more a bad deployment/lack of targets that was the issue. Quad Lascannon was also iffy, but I didn't really have any other AA, and we didn't know what the teams were ahead of time, so I'm glad I included it, even if it wasn't practical. That said, Hydras are a Traitor Guard option, so I may just look into fielding those for future AA needs. 

Ran my Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer for the second time. Defintely underpriced (so I'm happy with the point changes I noted this morning from Pretre's post in the other thread). Slays a target per turn, easily, without assistance. Destroyed a Land Raider and (due to lack of better targets) and two Rhinos with Smoke concealing them (one per turn, it only shoots and slays a single unit per turn). Don't think I'm going to field this in non-apocalypse, for the future. He's just not very friendly, plus I feel I need to repaint it anyway.

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List for game 1 of Peter's Attrition League. Not using any of the leaked point alterations until that book is at least in stores, which is a shame because almost every unit is lower cost in those leaked rules. I hate having to include troops in this edition (no troops requirement is one of the best features of 8e)

 

500pts Black Legion

HQ Sorcerer (Mark of Nurgle, Force Stave) 90+14=104pts

Troops Cultists (10, Unmarked, Heavy Stubber) 40+4=44pts

Troops Chaos Space Marines (5, Mark of Slaanesh, 1 Autocannon) 65+20=85pts

Heavy Vindicator (Mark of Nurgle) 135pts

Heavy Hellforged Rapier Battery (Mark of Khorne, C-Beam Cannon, 2 Crew) 20+30+26=76pts

Total: 444pts. 56pts Saved for future purchases. 

 

Warlord is the Sorcerer. Sorcerer's Psychic Powers are Miasma of Pestilence & Death Hex & Smite. Relic is the Eye of Night, which is held by the Sorcerer. Under the impression that warlord traits are not being used, but if they are, Sorcerer will have Exalted Champion (+1 Attack).

List is not very impressive. I expect to be decimated by either spammed Mortars or deep strike units. 500pt games on small tables, in my experience, are usually really unbalanced when playing with experienced players. The issue is that I can't really take anything (I own) durable enough to withstand the offensive potential that can be brought at this point level. 

That said, I do have a general plan. And most of these are units that would benefit a larger army. 

I wanted to include Daemons, but I'm unclear if I can include Daemons AND retain my legion trait since we aren't using detachments. 

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Hmm. Interesting discovery. Okay, so in order to benefit from the Legion Trait, the entire detachment needs to be from one legion. That said, to have a specific chapter in the legion keyword, the detachment can be a mix of legions. Our lovely FAQ allows World Eater Berzerkers and Emperor's Children Noise Marines to qualify as Troops provided they have their respective Legion Keyword (but they don't need the legion trait or be in an exclusively <legion> detachment). 

So my *mostly* Black Legion Detachment could include World Eater Khorne Bererkers as troops - neither would benefit from their respective legion traits, but it could still have merit. Likewise, I could have a CSM Detachment of mostly World Eaters that just happened to include a Black Legion Sorcerer. Interesting to ponder and could be useful for capitalizing on certain chaos Artefacts. 

 

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Hmm. Don't like that list. Okay, here's another:

 

Chaos 500pts

HQ Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage 340pts

HQ World Eaters Dark Apostle (Power Maul, Brass Collar) 72+4=76pts

Troops World Eaters Cultists (10, 1 Heavy Stubber) 40+4=44pts

Troops World Eaters Cultists (10) 40pts

Total 500pts exactly.

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Hmm..Tinkering with list ideas, rather than 1 faction of CSM, could include multiples. Also giving serious consideration to running 3x bastions. They just make soft targets durable, and they block LoS really well. Plus they are really cheap for their profile, both in points and cash. Plus, gotta give Iron Warriors something to shoot at... ;) Anyway, here's another list:

 

Chaos 2k (Everything has Mark of Khorne if it can take a mark)

 

World Eaters Vanguard Detachment (+1 CP)

HQ Chaos Lord On Juggernaut (Bladed Horn, Power Fist, Combi-Flamer, Chaos Artefact: Brass Collar) 125+10+12+11=158pts

Elite Hellbrute (Twin Lascannon, Hellbrute Fist) 72+50+40=162pts

Elite Hellbrute (Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher) 72+50+25=147pts

Elite Hellbrute (Power Scourge, Missile Launcher) 72+43+25=140pts

Heavy Support Hellforged Rapier Battery (C-Beam Cannon, 2 Crew) 20+30+26=76pts

Subtotal: 683pts

 

Chaos Battalion (+5CP)

HQ Abaddon (Warlord) 240pts

HQ Karanak 116pts

Troops World Eater Cultists (10, Autoguns) 40pts

Troops Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (10, 2 Autocannons) 130+40=170pts

Troops World Eaters Berserkers (5, 2 Chainaxes) 82pts

Dedicated World Eaters Rhino (Combi Bolter) 70+2=72pts

Heavy Support Black Legion Vindicator 135pts

Heavy Support Black Legion Vindicator 135pts

Heavy Support Black Legion Vindicator 135pts

Subtotal 1125pts

 

Fortification Network 

Chaos Bastion (4 Heavy Bolters) 160+32=192pts

Subtotal 192pts

 

Total 2000pts, 9 CP

 

Some trickly list bits here. So the Berserkers have the Legion, "World Eaters," keyword, but don't benefit from the Trait because they are included in a mixed detachement. Likewise the Black legion models retain their legion keyword, but lack their legion trait. That said, Berserkers were FAQed to be troops when given the World Eaters Keyword, so despite not benefiting from the trait, they are still troops because they have the keyword. So that Batallion's overall detachment is just Chaos. Now, Abaddon allows Black Legion models within 6" to re-roll hits. Again, they have the black legion keyword, but not the trait. So those Black Legion Vindicators, for example, get to re-roll to hit while within 6" of Abaddon. 

As for Stratagems and Artefacts, because I have that CSM Vanguard Detachment of World Eaters, I gain full access to the CSM stratagems and artefacts. 

Anyway, only own the one Chaos Bastion, and it's unfinished. We'll see how well it works. 

Going to try Karanak and a Brass Collar on the juggerlord for anti-psyker options. Allows me to deny 3 powers per turn (potentially a 4th with the World Eaters Stratagem), which isn't bad considering I don't have any actual psykers, but still isn't enough to cope with psyker spam. 

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Man, so on fence with this attrition list. Okay, if bringing the above for game night, then should include the same models for attrition:

 

World Eaters (unit details in the above list) 500pts

HQ Juggerlord 158pts

Elites Hellbrute (Las+ML) 147pts

Troops Cultists (10) 40pts

Troops Khorne Berserkers (5) 82pts

Dedicated Rhino 72pts

Total 499pts

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39 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Man, so on fence with this attrition list. Okay, if bringing the above for game night, then should include the same models for attrition:

 

World Eaters (unit details in the above list) 500pts

HQ Juggerlord 158pts

Elites Hellbrute (Las+ML) 147pts

Troops Cultists (10) 40pts

Troops Khorne Berserkers (5) 82pts

Dedicated Rhino 72pts

Total 499pts

More units gives you more options to grow... if you lose a model here or there you can replenish losses and still make bigger units... if you plan to try and but new squads later while having fewer max sized squads you will have less options for your cache points. 

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Let's see. Attrition game was a loss. I had 2/5 objectives and Peter had 3/5. That said, I took zero losses and he lost about 5 guys without counting the ones he brought back during play via his apothecary. That was game 5 of 8th for me, I think.

2k game was me wiped (Game 6 of 8th edtion). Opponent had "imperial soup" featuring 2 imperial knights, the primarch of the ultramarines, some mechanicus, and inquisitor fairfax. I feel I lost the game due to cheesy special characters and command point shenanigens more than any actually lacking feature in my list. That said, I did make mistakes and had some pretty bad rolling towards the end. 

Anyway, got to test a bunch of things. 

Daemon Shell Stratagem: It definitely helped. Have that Combi-flamer on the Juggerlord. 

Linebreaker Bombardment Stratagem: Works great for killing characters. Did 5 mortal wounds to a tech priest of some sort, killed it, plus several wounds to an imperial knight. Best bit is that it doesn't use balistic skill, and my vindicators had taken some damage before they got it off. 

Let the Galaxy Burn Stratagem: Two Autocannons in the Troops Marines with rerolling hits was decent. Probably a waste of command points for autocannons, but it worked okay. 

World Eaters Legion Trait: I liked having extra attacks, but I felt the main advantage was the additional psychic defense in the Brass Collar and in that World Eaters Stratagem. Not sure if it was worth it. I do think that the Juggerlord was probably wasting that Artefact, and that I'd actually be better off with a Deep Striking model with Brass Collar, so I could put it in their face earlier in the game. 

Hellbrutes: Same issues as before, they just don't have the speed or durability to be productive additions. I need to stop fielding them. Plus they cost way too much. 

Cultists: Not worth it at 2k, but surprisingly effective in the 500pt attrition game.

Chaos Bastion: Opponent ignored it because I didn't include anything in it that forced them to shoot it. Rapier can't go in because the gun is non-INFANTRY. It otherwise blocked LoS just fine and protected the unit inside (cultists). 

Vindicators+Abaddon: Worked very well together. Abaddon granted them rerolls to hit, and they protected Abaddon pretty well (until they got themal cannoned to death...). 

Rapier with C-Beam Cannon: Good and Bad. On the one hand, worked exactly as planned, shot once dealing 5 damage to a Knight at 70-ish" of range, which encouraged the opponent move their entire army so as to make the weapon less effective, which was the plan. That said, lots of LoS blocking terrain allowed the oppoent ditch half the board in order to be outside my LoS for this gun. So they didn't come closer, they just moved to a corner...

 

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Hmm..I think the biggest flaw in the CSM codex is a lack of useful cheap units. If my list has about 60pts open, I can't really spend it. Cultists are an option, but they really don't have very useful weapon options. Two Chaos Spawn are 66pts. 5 Chaos marines with only bolters are 65pts. And that's it, unless I'm overlooking something. I suppose I could take reserve points, but that's its own gamble and it wastes movement. 

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Opponent, last game, suggested spamming juggerlords for suggestions to the army. I blew that idea off, but am now rethinking it. I keep forgetting that I can just spam HQs in this edition, and more so, that it isn't frowned upon like it was in prior editions, because in this edition you are actually paying for your characters (special characters especially, used to be very underpriced).

I could also mix in Heralds on Juggernauts, which are weaker, but considerably cheaper. Probably not viable...

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On 11/28/2017 at 8:47 PM, paxmiles said:

Hmm. Interesting discovery. Okay, so in order to benefit from the Legion Trait, the entire detachment needs to be from one legion. That said, to have a specific chapter in the legion keyword, the detachment can be a mix of legions. Our lovely FAQ allows World Eater Berzerkers and Emperor's Children Noise Marines to qualify as Troops provided they have their respective Legion Keyword (but they don't need the legion trait or be in an exclusively <legion> detachment). 

So my *mostly* Black Legion Detachment could include World Eater Khorne Bererkers as troops - neither would benefit from their respective legion traits, but it could still have merit. Likewise, I could have a CSM Detachment of mostly World Eaters that just happened to include a Black Legion Sorcerer. Interesting to ponder and could be useful for capitalizing on certain chaos Artefacts. 

 

I'm pretty sure that you need the whole detachment made up of world eaters or emperor's children in order to unlock the troops designation for those units. For a detachment to be a "legion" the whole detachment has to be that legion.

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11 minutes ago, CaptainA said:

I'm pretty sure that you need the whole detachment made up of world eaters or emperor's children in order to unlock the troops designation for those units. For a detachment to be a "legion" the whole detachment has to be that legion.

Yes, for the detachment to be WORLD EATERS they would all need to have that keyword.

For the INFANTRY, BIKERS, HELLBRUTES, and daemon princes to benefit from the legion *trait* the entire detachment needs the same legion keyword.

Every model can choose a legion keyword, even if the detachment doesn't benefit from the legion trait.

For Khorne Berzerkers to be troops, only that unit needs to have the the WORLD EATERS keyword. This is in the FAQ for the CSM codex.

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1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

Yes, for the detachment to be WORLD EATERS they would all need to have that keyword.

For the INFANTRY, BIKERS, HELLBRUTES, and daemon princes to benefit from the legion *trait* the entire detachment needs the same legion keyword.

Every model can choose a legion keyword, even if they don't benefit from the legion trait.

For Khorne Berzerkers to be troops, only that unit needs to have the the WORLD EATERS keyword. This is in the FAQ for the CSM codex.

For the detachment to be a <legion> every unit must be from the same <legion>. If you had khorne berzerkers as world eaters, they could not be with abaddon (in the same detachment) as he has a different <legion> keyword. You choose one legion to apply to the whole detachment. No even you go to will support that.

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Double Checked. Yes, I have this correct. So here's the detachment in question, as above.

On November 29, 2017 at 1:09 PM, paxmiles said:

Chaos Battalion (+5CP)

HQ Abaddon (Warlord) 240pts

HQ Karanak 116pts

Troops World Eater Cultists (10, Autoguns) 40pts

Troops Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (10, 2 Autocannons) 130+40=170pts

Troops World Eaters Berserkers (5, 2 Chainaxes) 82pts

Dedicated World Eaters Rhino (Combi Bolter) 70+2=72pts

Heavy Support Black Legion Vindicator 135pts

Heavy Support Black Legion Vindicator 135pts

Heavy Support Black Legion Vindicator 135pts

Subtotal 1125pts

 

So while units don't benefit from the <LEGION> trait, they still have the <LEGION> keyword. Page 116 of the CSM codex covers this.

You are correct, the detachment itself isn't able to be considered a particular <LEGION>'s detachment because I've mixed <LEGION> keywords. It would be a HERETICUS ASTARTES detachment, except I am including Karanak who is a Chaos Daemon special character. So this detachment is just CHAOS, which is my title for this detachment is "Chaos Battalion."

The FAQ for the CSM codex adds a rule to Khorne Berserkers:

Quote

Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of WORLD EATERS Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.

This isn't tied to the Legion Trait for WORLD EATERS, it is just an automatic change. On the downside, this means WORLD EATERS are unable to use Berzerkers as elites slots (which means they can't be included in a Supreme Command Detachment). 

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Found another interesting one. Havocs can take from both special and heavy weapons. I knew this, but I hadn't really considered taking both in a single unit. Flamers, for example, to discourage charging enemies, or plasma guns to pair with Missile Launchers or autocannons due to similar stats.  Plus heavy weapons can now move and fire, less accuracy, granted, but being able to move and fire is new.

Chapter Approved also dropped autocannons down to 15pts each. 

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Hmm. Another steep decrease in mutilator unit cost. Now 42pts each with chapter approved, putting a full unit of 3 at 126pts. Too bad those GW models are finecast, as they might finally be worth fielding. Maybe I'll convert some of my own...

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Okay, 200pts of list additions for attrition league next week. Adding a jump chaos lord and some cheap raptors. List is now

 

World Eaters 700pts

HQ (Warlord: Undying Fortitude) Chaos Lord on Juggernaut (Bladed Horn, Power Fist, Combi-Flamer, Chaos Artefact: Brass Collar) 125+10+12+11=158pts

HQ Chaos Lord on Jump Pack (Chaos Artefact: Murdersword, Chainsword) 93+4=97pts

Elites Hellbrute (1 Twin Lascannon, 1 Missile Launcher) 72+50+25=147pts

Troops Cultists (10, 10 Autoguns) 40pts

Troops Khorne Berserkers (5, 5 Bolt Pistols, 3 Chainswords, 2 Chain Axes) 80+2=82pts

Dedicated Rhino (Combi-Bolter)7+2=72pts

Fast Raptors (5, 3 Bolt Pistol, 3 Chainsword, 2 Flamers) 85+18=103pts

Total 699pts. 2 CP (3 Base, -1 for the second artefact, 2 total)

 

EDIT: Just to avoid confusion, I'm set on Black Legion, but this list was created before I decided, so I have to stick with world eaters for the next few games of this attrition league. 

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On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 10:17 PM,   said:

 

World Eaters 700pts

HQ (Warlord: Undying Fortitude) Chaos Lord on Juggernaut (Bladed Horn, Power Fist, Combi-Flamer, Chaos Artefact: Brass Collar) 125+10+12+11=158pts

HQ Chaos Lord on Jump Pack (Chaos Artefact: Murdersword, Chainsword) 93+4=97pts

Elites Hellbrute (1 Twin Lascannon, 1 Missile Launcher) 72+50+25=147pts

Troops Cultists (10, 10 Autoguns) 40pts

Troops Khorne Berserkers (5, 5 Bolt Pistols, 3 Chainswords, 2 Chain Axes) 80+2=82pts

Dedicated Rhino (Combi-Bolter)7+2=72pts

Fast Raptors (5, 3 Bolt Pistol, 3 Chainsword, 2 Flamers) 85+18=103pts

Total 699pts. 2 CP (3 Base, -1 for the second artefact, 2 total)

For the record. Got a game in with this list. Got bombarded to death by enemy manticores. My fault, bad list, but I did get to test some things out.

Mainly the Murdersword is awesome. I choose a Tank Commander as my target, and did manage to make melee with him, before the list was totally wiped.

Hit 5 times and did 5 mortal wounds against that T8 enemy character.

I also concluded that I don't like world eaters chapter tactics. Extra attacks on the charge are awesome, but I can't justify melee upgrades when I take such heavy losses getting to melee.

Third game with cultists. They don't work as I'm using them. Not sure how their cost is justified. They are just hugely inferior to AM infantry squads, but cost the same. I don't think they should be cheaper, but they need a statline increase or something.

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