Blood Angels Coming

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

I dunno. I've always considered BA to be all about threat density/HQ tax rather than relying on HQ's to do really game changing things. ATSKNF is probably the most important ability for BA right now in 8E

HQs, I think, are the biggest change in mentality to how 8e plays over other editions. The option to field an entire army of just HQs and having points of said HQs actually reflected in their stats, does really change how HQs function over prior editions. Rather than complaining that my terminators don't have a good enough invulnerable save, I can just field a "unit" of 5 Chaos Lords in terminator armor - expensive, but it's a valid option in this edition.  

I will note, and this is often overlooked, is that in 8e, any model in your army can be the warlord (But only CHARACTER warlords can take warlord traits or gain access to relics/artefacts). So if you did dedicate your HQs to a role like being terminators, you could always name some other, more protected, unit in your army to be the warlord. 

[peter.cosgrove]

thing is though. BA HQ's have more in common with supporting roles rather than meat magnets. They have in 8E aura abilities that make you want to keep them with the primary red ball of death. If they miss the 9" charge then the units they are supposed to be boosting will get out of range. And it looks like the non-named characters can become Death Company for Lemartes charge re-roll. Will need to check that. Although Ashtorath isn't Death Company.

The sanguinary ancient, as an elite choice, with the relic banner would end up being target #1 during the shoot phase.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

thing is though. BA HQ's have more in common with supporting roles rather than meat magnets. They have in 8E aura abilities that make you want to keep them with the primary red ball of death. If they miss the 9" charge then the units they are supposed to be boosting will get out of range. And it looks like the non-named characters can become Death Company for Lemartes charge re-roll. Will need to check that. Although Ashtorath isn't Death Company.

The sanguinary ancient, as an elite choice, with the relic banner would end up being target #1 during the shoot phase.

Not a BA player, but I'm sure you could get it to work. If DSing them point blank with jump packs doesn't work, try a Storm Raven, or a drop pod, or terminator armor, or maybe try arriving further back and settle on a turn 2+ charge. The sons Sanguinius have options beyond just jump packs and point blank DS. You are limiting your own army if you restrict their options like that.

I will note that if the opponent deploys units at the edge of no-man's land, that 24" gap between armies, that units with BS 2+ assault weapons (like characters with melta guns) could advance a solid 16-21" via Disembarking 3" from a building, then jeting 12+d6", which should put you within 3" of the enemy. Probably couldn't assault, but you'd have BS3+ for the assault weapons and you'd be in both melta pistol and flamer range (and the BS doesn't really matter if you are using flamers). 

Personally, I'm working on a dying Sanguinary Guard model hanging from a Crusifix which is mounted on my chaos bastion....That's my answer to the new BA codex. lol.

[peter.cosgrove]

Where are you getting the 12+D6. It's a flat 15". 3" plus 12". With a 24" non deployment zone that's still a 9" charge. And if you advance you won't be able to charge.

ah. I see. ya. no. Have to make the charge

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Where are you getting the 12+D6. It's a flat 15". 3" plus 12". With a 24" non deployment zone that's still a 9" charge. And if you advance you won't be able to charge.

If you advance, you usually can't charge, correct. There are exceptions, not sure if the BA will have any. CSM certainly do. We have an artefact (Khorne Talisman), plus a Legion Trait (renegade).

But the point was getting your melta weapons into range. For that, advancing works fine because as assault weapons, melta guns can be fired after advancing (-1 to hit). So you can advance 16-21". If they've deployed to the edge, that should be enough to shoot them with melta, flamers, or melta pistols, depending on your rolling for the advance roll. In anycase, that's still closer than 9" and it isn't hindered by the opponent having some model with a "scout" move that limits your deploy options or having an ability which shoots deep striking units. 

But sure, you could glass half empty this one, and dismiss it because it's "unfair" that you aren't guarenteed a turn 1 charge. Personally, I'm glad turn 1 charges require risk. Seems entirely reasonable. 

[peter.cosgrove]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

If you advance, you usually can't charge, correct. 

But the point was getting your melta weapons into range. 

But sure, you could glass half empty this one, and dismiss it because it's "unfair" that you aren't guarenteed a turn 1 charge. Personally, I'm glad turn 1 charges require risk. Seems entirely reasonable. 

BA assaults can take 2 melta/plasmas. The only other unit that can is the space wolves hitting on BS 4+. To gain that with other chapters a list has to pay more for veterans. BA should, even with the codex, retain the cheapest/best special weapons squads with jump packs. And since they are a FA slot instead of an elite slot it makes adding elites to a detachment even better.

Also, BA company vets can take jump packs if you want combi weapons.

It's still just the charge distance re-roll that, really, breaks the list. So far, only Lemartes gives it and only for DC.

[Guest]

Just now, peter.cosgrove said:

BA assaults can take 2 melta/plasmas. The only other unit that can is the space wolves hitting on BS 4+. To gain that with other chapters a list has to pay more for veterans. BA should, even with the codex, retain the cheapest/best special weapons squads with jump packs. And since they are a FA slot instead of an elite slot it makes adding elites to a detachment even better.

If you read my post, the suggestion was actually for character models with BS 2+ so when they do this, they have BS 3+. Not an auto-hit, but decent. Not sure if BA will be allowed dual melta pistols, but CSM can have dual plasma pistols on their characters, meaning it might be an option. A character would be able to jet up and fire one or two melta shots into the target on turn 1. With a whole building full of such characters, you may even be able to do fire enough shots to reduce titans to nothing.

If you can move 16-21" your assault marines could just take flamers, as an enemy 24" away at the start of the turn should be in flamer range unless you roll a 1. 

And I'm hoping you don't get cheaper weapons. I think GW would be very smart to keep special weapons the same price. Having access to additional special weapons, like melta pistols and hand flamers, does seem entirely reasonable, and I hope you get that for squad champion wargear options. Melta pistols costing less than melta guns, does seem like a reasonable way to handle it. Wouldn't be surprised if BA tactical squads get an option to use their heavy flamers as assault weapons. 

[peter.cosgrove]

well, given the Baal Predator can take dual heavy flamers I could see that.

[SigurdBC]

3 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Did they say anything about DC getting 2 attack phases like KZ?

No DC don't get 2 attack phases like Berzerkers, but what they do get is a strategem that they can use (I believe 1CP) that allows a unit of DC after the first player has been decided but before the first battle round to move a free movement as if it were the movement phase. Therefore, you can get a free 12" plus a D6 advance with a DC unit before the game has even begun, and if you have first turn you are almost guaranteeing a Turn 1 charge with your DC. Also, the Red Thirst is really gross. Some people may dismiss it as not as good as other "Legion/Chapter Traits" but after watching that Batrep I gained a much better appreciation for getting +1 to your wound rolls. There was one instance of Sanguinary Guard charging into a Juggerlord and decapitating him in one round of combat before he even got to swing because they were wounding him on 2s thanks to support from a Sanguinary Priest providing them with a bubble of +1 Str. It was kind of disgusting to watch, since that was with only half the unit actually hitting the Juggerlord. The other half were attacking a wounded Helbrute and they slaughtered him too.  

[WestRider]

+1 to Wound is really strong. There's also a Stratagem that lets a Unit roll 3d6 for their Charges on the Turn they Deep Strike. You can't get everything with buffed Charge rolls, but you can get Lemartes+DC+a Character with the DC Stratagem+a Unit dropping in with the Charge 3d6 Stratagem. All that adds up to a pretty serious Assault threat off the drop.

Edit: Forgot, there's also a Relic Jump Pack that will let one more Character re-roll their Charges. And a Librarian dropping in can get a guaranteed Charge with Wings of Sanguinius.

[peter.cosgrove]

So, I just realized something.

The Red Thirst. Does that apply to all Blood Angels units in a Battle Forged List OR is it a detachment trait. In other words, can Blood Angels in a mixed detachment also get The Red Thirst.

[peter.cosgrove]

so.. what's the cheapest possible IG unit now that Ratlings got bumped to 45 points?

[peter.cosgrove]

The other thing about the BA (if nothing changes), is they remain the only unit you can put 2 special weapons on in a 5 man squad in a Rhino/Razorback hitting on BS3+ for base SM cost.

[pretre]

1 minute ago, peter.cosgrove said:

The other thing about the BA (if nothing changes), is they remain the only unit you can put 2 special weapons on in a 5 man squad in a Rhino/Razorback hitting on BS3+ for base SM cost.

SOB can do it for cheaper. :)

[Guest]

1 minute ago, pretre said:

SOB can do it for cheaper. :)

Been wondering for a while, shouldn't it be SoB instead of SOB? Though I suppose, they're now the AS.

Either way, you say cheap and the point would agree, but everyone knows that sisters will hurt your wallet more than almost any other army...

[peter.cosgrove]

1 hour ago, pretre said:

SOB can do it for cheaper. :)

heh.

A. I don't have any and heh.

I suppose if you count a crusader squad with say, multimelta/melta or plasma gun/cannon.

[peter.cosgrove]

That red thirst working all the time and not just as a detachment trait is really important difference.

16 points per model for assault BA, 17 points for melta, 114 points for a 2 melta squad. 12 squads would be close to 1400 points. But to balance that you would need a certain amount of BOG to cover the deep strike unit tax. With Ratlings at 45 points in an elite slot, you could field 6 cheap troops for 12/12, and create a complete total board control tarpit on 1st turn. But you would need 3 HQ. Try to do that for under 2k would be rough.

[peter.cosgrove]

1368 for 12 assault squads.

360 for 8 squads ratlings.

2 squads/2HQ for 372 points? That should be doable. Going to want more squads for board control. 6 squads for 240, 2 HQ and heavy weapons in there. 

I suppose it's doable, but going to want more squads BOG.

[peter.cosgrove]

Might want to add at least 1 scout squad in there to claim and camp one OBJ during deployment, because the ratlings have to wait until the end of the deployment to do their thing.

[peter.cosgrove]

man. If Chaos had infiltrators.. Seriously.

[peter.cosgrove]

Holy moly.. Scouts get a chainsword. WS3+. 55 points for infiltrating S4 2 attacks with +1 to wound. Here's crossing fingers hoping BA scouts get Red Thirst

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

man. If Chaos had infiltrators.. Seriously.

The scout sentinels can be taken by the traitor guard. That's about the best I've found in terms of pregame deployment.

[white_devil]

4 hours ago, paxmiles said:

The scout sentinels can be taken by the traitor guard. That's about the best I've found in terms of pregame deployment.

Nurglings.

 

Also, here are some tidbits from some guys that have a preview copy:

Gabriel Seth - bunch of buffs including Chapter Master, extra AP, extra hit on 6 in the Fight Phase 

 

No more sang Priests with jump pack/bike in codex. Still in index. Ditto for tons of other index-only options. 

 

lib dread 20pts cheaper 

 

termie lib down 25pts 

 

Chaplain termie down 15pts 

 

Astorath's weapon +1s 

 

Tycho the Lost new "dead mans hand" (Melee S:user AP-2 Dd3) 

 

Cpt Tycho also gains dead man's hand 

 

termie captain down 15pts 

 

16 new units (lieutenants, primaris stuff, planes, anti air vehicles, etc) 

 

techmarine down 13pts 

 

Tactical squad - sergeant may now take a Melta Bomb 

 

Sanguinary Guard down 2 points 

 

Chapter Banner nerfed - was immune to morale, now +1LD. Bonus to wound rolls stays the same. 

 

Sanguinary Novitiate new unit (identical to basic apothecary with Bloody Blood blood name) 

 

DC Dread down 38pts 

 

Terminator Ancient new unit 

 

Company Champion down 16pts 

 

Terminator assault squad down 5ppm 

 

Furioso Dread down 52 points 

 

Blood Talons now S+4 -2AP 3Damage, reroll failed hit and wound rolls for this weapon 

 

Assault marines now get melta and plasma guns

 

[white_devil]

Also, I hate that my phone won’t auto change text sizes. My bad. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, white_devil said:

Nurglings.

 

 

Good call. I've not really paid attention to the non-khorne daemons, but no strong reasons against.

Plus a good amazon x-mas wish list item...