Fight phase ranges and order of attacks question

[Guest]

Okay, when is the range of melee attacks determined when attacking enemy units in the Fight Phase?

As I read it, we determine range to target unit before making any attacks. Range to the model isn't used, we just need the unit to be within 1" during step 3 of the Fight Phase. 

That said, recently, during a game, I was informed that the opponent was allowed to allocate wounds so as to put their unit out of range for further attacks. I'm unclear where this is found in the rules, and if this is a common (and legit) interpretation, then I really need to know this since it matters a good deal. 

In the particular situation, my Terminator Champion had 3 attacks hit with a Chainfist against the opponent's 3 Bikes which all in one unit. Two of the bike models were within 1" and the third was outside. My opponent claimed that the third biker was immune to the damage, as he was outside of 1".

Now, I don't mind if the opponent is right here, but I do need to know where this is described in the rules because I really can't find it. As I read it, all Fight Phase attacks are resolved at Step 5 of the Fight Phase, and melee weapons do not actually have a range, merely requireing the target UNIT to be within 1" during Step 3 of the Fight Phase. 

[pretre]

During the same attack step, you aren't immune to damage no matter how far away you are from the model swinging.

Casualty removal can prevent later models from activating in the fight step though, effectively making them immune to later models in your unit swinging.

So, example:

Two Terminator Units (one with Power Sword and one with Power Fist) charge 10 dudes, they both contact the closest one. The remaining enemy dudes are strung out in a line directly away from the terminators.

The first (PS) term activates and kills the three closest dudes even though only the first one is within 1" of the swinging model.

The second (PF) activates, piles in 3" and can't get within 1" of an opponent, so is unable to swing.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, pretre said:

During the same attack step, you aren't immune to damage no matter how far away you are from the model swinging.

Casualty removal can prevent later models from activating in the fight step though, effectively making them immune to later models in your unit swinging.

So, example:

Two Terminators (one with Power Sword and one with Power Fist) charge 10 dudes, the power sword contacts the closest one and the PF is 1" behind. The remaining dudes are strung out in a line directly away from the terminators.

The first (PS) term activates and kills the three closest dudes even though only the first one is within 1" of the swinging model.

The second (PF) activates, piles in 3" and can't get within 1" of an opponent, so is unable to swing.

In your example, are the Terminators two units? As I read it, Fight Phase is resolved per unit, not per model. Though I accept that I could have it wrong. 

The attacking MODEL does need to be within 1" of the enemy UNIT during Step 3 when declaring which UNITs will be attacked, but MODELs aren't removed until Step 5. If the two terminators are one UNIT and were both within 1" of an enemy UNIT when attacks were declared, then they should resolve their attacks as per Steps 4-6, regardless of the position of enemy MODELs.  

[pretre]

Yes, I was talking about two units. If they were the same unit, they'd swing at the same time and kill a ton of dudes.

[pretre]

I edited to make it more clear. I think I was half thinking of initiative steps there.

[Guest]

So I had it right. Huh. I think I expected to have this one wrong. Not a problem, thanks for the clarity. 

[peter.cosgrove]

Ya, I was wrong. That clears up a confusing bit about the shots one at a time thing. Step 3 in parenthesis (the chosen model does not have to be within range or visible to the attacking unit). My apologies for the discussion.

[peter.cosgrove]

Ok pretre, then i have a question. I have a unit with bolters and flamers shooting at a unit. I declare my target and weapons. Then I fire the bolters and the wounds are allocated in such a manner that the remaining models in the unit are more than 8" away. You are saying I still get to shoot the flamers even though the models are more than 8" away.

[Guest]

Just now, peter.cosgrove said:

Ok pretre, then i have a question. I have a unit with bolters and flamers shooting at a unit. I declare my target and weapons. Then I fire the bolters and the wounds are allocated in such a manner that the remaining models in the unit are more than 8" away. You are saying I still get to shoot the flamers even though the models are more than 8" away.

Pretre is on topic and answering questions about the Fight phase. I didn't ask about the shooting phase because that one didn't really matter to me, but it is still a good question. 

Regarding your question, why is the unit using their longer range weapons first? If you fire the flamers first, the entire problem goes away...., but yes, as I read it, you are able to remove models beyond your max range, provided the target unit was within range when the ranged weapons were declared. 

If you look at Step 4 of the Shooting phase, substep 3: Allocate wound reads,

"If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocate the wound to any model in the unit (the chosen model does not have to be within range or visible to the attacking unit)."

Bold is mine, plus there's another sentance there regarding multi-wound models that isn't really related to your question. 

So basically, you don't shoot at models, you shoot at units. All your shots are sent to a target unit. The opponent gets to choose which models they want to remove. Simple as that. 

[peter.cosgrove]

I think it's because of the cover save, shots one at a time thing.

If I have a unit that can't get a cover save because of one model, and I remove that one model, then the unit gets a cover save for the remaining attacks, I think it's a simple thing to also think that you can remove models in such a manner to make some attacks go out of range. Looks like it's not. Although I must say it makes it easier, less thinking.

[WestRider]

The only place I see anything talking about checking range is in step 2: Choose Targets. It's not ironclad, but it reads to me as tho that basically sets the range for the whole Unit's Shooting.