8th Edition List Building

[fingolfen]

So how are people setting up their forces for both casual and tournament play in the Portland area now that we have both "Power" and "Points"???

[Lord Hanaur]

Points.

 

Also ive come to the conclusion that if you have a sniper option, get one into the list.  Seems to be a definite need.  While there will be opponnents against whom that solution isnt as optimal, its just a good idea to have.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, fingolfen said:

So how are people setting up their forces for both casual and tournament play in the Portland area now that we have both "Power" and "Points"???

Maybe it is where I'm playing, but I'm slowly drawing the conclusion that there is no difference between a casual list and a tournament list. And that I really need fierce lists to engage in "casual" play.

The distinction between casual and now casual play seems to reflect how serious the players are following the rules as written.

[kb10r]

22 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

The distinction between casual and now casual play seems to reflect how serious the players are following the rules as written.

What are rules that Casual players are not following?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kb10r said:

What are rules that Casual players are not following?

They aren't breaking rules per say, just not following them to the letter either. And it's not really an issue, just the petty sort of stuff that tournament players care about. I just mean that the casual players I encounter tend to not care much about abserving the rules exactly as written, which isn't really an issue for casual play, but would matter in an event. And this isn't new, casual play has always been like this.

Regarding the difficulty of lists, I've found almost all opponents to be wielding lists that don't really have any business in casual play of prior editions, but it's so common that I think I just need to reevaluate my standards, as I don't think they are ALL wrong. I think I need to start bringing "cheesy" lists because in 8e, cheese is the only viable list option - I tend to avoid things that seem too good, but I'm finding that this approach doesn't work at all in this edition (in prior editions I'd still lose, but the margin with which I'd lose has changed substancially).

[Lord Hanaur]

Hm.  Well.  On that note i find it interesting that my list, almost the same list i played in 7th (Militarum Tempestus) with nigh zero changes, is so good now.  Almost no change.  In fact with less in it.  So I think that WHAT is good changed and indeed you just need to adjust sites.  Honestly some powerful stuff can be taken down by not as powerful stuff unlike before.  Volume of fire has new value.  Look into it but it seems like mooooore things are effective, and less common things are quite useable now

[fingolfen]

Thanks guys for the feedback, I appreciate it.  What points levels are common these days?  1500?  1750?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, fingolfen said:

Thanks guys for the feedback, I appreciate it.  What points levels are common these days?  1500?  1750?

2k for ITC. Though I hear talk of raising it. I've found that low point play (under 1k) can be rather unbalanced if the opponent includes certain units (like long range artillery).

[peter.cosgrove]

Here is how I define the difference between Cheese and Not-Cheese.

Is it a model that the person has had since before 7E? Then it's not cheese to bring it. If someone is buying a new model specifically to put it on the board to win in casual play that's cheese. Kind of. Personally I prefer to see people get excited about cool models and really good painting of new models. I can't paint for beans so I really enjoy seeing what everyone can do. I would rather get tabled by really georgeous models than win against the kind of paint/basing that resembles the stuff I put on the table.

We had enough with the whole 7E P2W structure.

Now, separate from that is the points vs power level "cheese". Some units give added value for the same power level over other units that don't.

A good example is Devastators/Havocs. The base power level for these units is essentially the same as their troop squad equivalent, however the power level allows you to bring 4 heavy weapons with no change to the power level as opposed to 2 weapons for the troop squad. Said added heavy weapons can triple the cost of the unit in points value

A really good example of this is Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, for the same power level every Rubric can be given warpflamers, whereas that doubles the points cost for the unit.

So at that point are the models WYSIWYG and beautiful? Then cool, for power levels/casual play that's awesome, but counts as? eh.. If you want to play-test a list then it really should be points rather than powerlevels.

[Guest]

Dunno, to me, cheese is one of that each persons knows when they see it, but actually defining it results in a bad example that is easily shredded by others' comments....

 

[WestRider]

One thing to keep in mind for longer-term players is that there has been some pretty massive power creep over the editions. I haven't seen it so much here, but out in the 40K blogosphere, I've seen a number of people complaining about newer editions being all about cheese, because they're still looking at things from a 3rd-4th Ed viewpoint. Much of the stuff that could be called cheesy back then is now standard, or even underpowered.

[happycamper]

Cheesy to me is more about list building than models themselves.  When a player purposely looking for loop holes to get an advantage, that’s the cheese

[DisruptiveConduct]

Are we still talking about the original question?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, happycamper said:

Cheesy to me is more about list building than models themselves.  When a player purposely looking for loop holes to get an advantage, that’s the cheese

Depends how they present it. If the opponent is up front about it before the game starts. They point it out and explain it, and make sure both players understand it and it's applications to the game, no issues. If they surprise their opponent during the game, that's cheese, or you could say, the player is cheesy.

It really has nothing to do with loop holes specificially, it's more taking advantage of the other player's lack of game knowledge. If you allow the opponent to make bad+uninformed decisions during the game, and then take advantage of them with rules (any rules), that's a cheesy way to play. Fine in a tournament, cheesy in casual play. 

That said, I find most casual players playing like this in 8e, keeping the rules secret and surprising their opponent during play. Not a pleasent way to play. 

[Lord Hanaur]

2k is moooore than enough points.  I would not want it to go higher.  As it is, 2.5 hours is about as fast as you can reliably complete a game.  Armies vary but yeah.  2k is the target for army size.  

We ran a 1500 point tournament which was quite fun, a couple months ago

 

[InfestedKerrigan]

37 minutes ago, DisruptiveConduct said:

Are we still talking about the original question?

Ha!

As if.

😉

[Guest]

Forum threads flow, like conversations. The question was list building. I commented that I've found list building to require more cheese than in past editions. Then the topic shifted to definitions for cheese. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

2 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Forum threads flow, like conversations. The question was list building. I commented that I've found list building to require more cheese than in past editions. Then the topic shifted to definitions for cheese. 

 

Oh, we know 😘

[Lord Hanaur]

Qell lets get back to the point at hand.  Not one of us can fail to have become weary of the subject of cheese on forums.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I like Smoked Flagship from Fred Meyer.

[Guest]

I will note for list building that the need for dedicated AA is gone in 8e. Fliers don't even always have the Airborne rule, and when they do, it's only a -1 to hit via shooting. They can be shot by normal units, or just charged (by units with the FLY keyword), and they are vulnerable to psychic powers too. Doesn't make fliers helpless or ignoreable, but they don't require a dedicated unit like they did in 6th or 7th. 

On the flip side, Dedicated AA units from past editions are still plenty viable since they now work on lots more units than they did before because the FLY keyword is now very common. 

[Lord Hanaur]

Dedicated AA have advantages though...  Chaos Marines are really deadly w their strategems against flyers.  The Astra Militarum Hydra is good too. So you dont NEED it but I mean...  it certainly does not hurt.  I do agree that its less necessary, just pointing out that the rules and strategems for some of them make them pretty good at their jobs.

[happycamper]

Hydra Platform is only like 70 points too.  

[Guest]

1 minute ago, happycamper said:

Hydra Platform is only like 70 points too.  

Yeah, those FW platforms really are questionably priced. Not sure why they think not being able to move with 72" range weapons means a 30pt drop in cost...

[happycamper]

3 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Yeah, those FW platforms really are questionably priced. Not sure why they think not being able to move with 72" range weapons means a 30pt drop in cost...

It’s also got less wounds and 4+ save rather than 3+