Ruins and Deployment

[Guest]

Ruin rules prevent VEHICLES, BIKERS, and MONSTERS without the fly rule to "End their movement" on any floor that isn't the ground floor. At the start of the game, before any movement phases, can I deploy VEHICLES, BIKERS, or MONSTERS on the upper levels of ruins? 

There would still need to be adequate space to place the model. Additionally, if I moved those models for any reason during the game, they would need to end their move off the ruin. 

Note that some vehicles can temporarily be given the FLY keyword, like those Librarian Dreadnoughts for BA, and by the rules as written, they wouldn't be ejected from the ruin's upper level simply for not having the FLY keyword. 

[ninefinger]

I think there's nothing in the rules explicitly against it, but it tends to be viewed as 'cheesey' or 'gamey'.

Leman Russ tanks sitting on top of  a skyshield, for example.


So, you could do it against me once, but I might not want to play you again ;)

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, ninefinger said:

I think there's nothing in the rules explicitly against it, but it tends to be viewed as 'cheesey' or 'gamey'.

Leman Russ tanks sitting on top of  a skyshield, for example.


So, you could do it against me once, but I might not want to play you again ;)

Well, the skyshield isn't a ruin. So not talking about that one or any of the other buildings. Additionally, having a vehicle on a skyshield does actually make sense, just because the vehicles aren't all made on planet and would probably rely on some sort of aerial craft to re-enter orbit in order to find another battlefield. But that's all a side topic.

Talking about actual ruins terrain, for example: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Manufactorum If the model fits on a level of the ruin, is it really wrong to believe that we could get a vehicle or monster up their before the battle started? 

For example, the Rapier Battery, a model that could easily fit on a 40mm base, is listed as a vehicle. Would it really be unbalancing to place that on the second floor of a ruin?

[peter.cosgrove]

When you set up on the battlefield it has to be legal. Any model that can't be set up on the battlefield legally is removed.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

When you set up on the battlefield it has to be legal.

I agree. What's your point? 

It may be in the rules, but I can't find where it even suggests that it would be illegal to deploy (not during a movement phase or as part of a move) a model on top of a ruin provided there is space for the model. Perhaps it mentions somewhere that Deployment counts as movement?

And from a fluff perspective, it seems entirely realistic that the defenders of a city could hoist up a vehicle onto the upper level of a ruin in a non-combat situation to take advantage of a high vantage point. And in 40k, ruins can support a lot of weight (judging by the types of models that are allowed to move to upper levels of ruins), so not an issue there. 

And, what about vehicles which gain the FLY keyword during play, for example, mr BA libby dread. By rules he can certainly end his move on top of a ruin while he has the FLY keyword. Would you eject him from the ruin if he lost that keyword? If no, then I hardly see the issue deploying a model on the ruin and just saying he was placed in that percarious position with a crane during a non-combat situation.

[peter.cosgrove]

because there isn't anything called deployment. It's called "set up on the battlefield". This edition GW really are using the 19th century concept of "logical English"

Anything with Fly can end their move with their base on Ruins..

[Guest]

Sorry, "set up." Same question. And no, I'm not seeing a difference there. Where are you finding rules that suggest VEHICLE, BIKER, or MONSTER models cannot be "set up" on ruins?

Oh, here's a weird one. CSM INFANTRY CHARACTER defeats an enemy character while on top of a tall ruin. They roll the chaos boon table and become a Daemon Prince. The only model the player has for a daemon prince is one without wings, so they become a wingless daemon (a legal option). A Daemon prince is a MONSTER and without wings, it lacks the FLY keyword. Now, the daemon prince is "set up" within 6". However, the ground floor is not within 6". Would you deny them the prince on the basis that it can't be "set up" on the upper level of the ruin?

[peter.cosgrove]

The Choas Boon table specifically says "set up" therefore the model would have to be placed on the ground floor. If it can't reach the ground floor the model would be removed.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

The Choas Boon table specifically says "set up" therefore the model would have to be placed on the ground floor. If it can't reach the ground floor the model would be removed.

Find me where it says models cannot be "set up" on ruins terrain. I don't think it's there. I'd call BS if you tried this in-game. 

[Guest]

Also, this is fluff thing for me as much as it is rules. If the opponent points out that a given ruin just doesn't look sturdy enough for "heavy" vehicles, that seems fair. I get that. I could put a sentinel or rapier, but imperial knight or land raider just can't, that makes sense and is reasonable. 

On the other hand, if they said I couldn't do it on the basis that the rules say this, I'd say, "find it." Because that's not part of the rules. 

Additionally, it's not like the ruins are treated as impassible terrain to VEHICLES or MONSTERS. A VEHICLE is legally allowed to move over a ruin, counting vertical distance both up and down to get over walls and such. They just can't "End their movement" on the ruin. 

So for an encounter battle, you could be skyriming up the buildings with your rhino, spot the enemy, and start the battle there. 

[peter.cosgrove]

Well, 3 things. 4 things.

First, personally, if I was the opponent, knowing that the wings option is free on the Choas boon table I would just say, wow that's really cool, Oh ya? just give it wings dude, no worries.

Second, The Ruins are really only supposed to be the current run of GW models they have for sale, That means that both the 2nd and 3rd floor are within 6" (The bulkheads are 2 3/4"). We've measured them and that fact actually came up last tue. Sure there's lots of terrain that are now OOP that have the 3rd floor higher on the base model, but those terrain kits are not on sale. For non-standard ruins you can have the conversation with your opponent to have each floor be a standard 3" vertical measurement. Certainly anything with a distance over 5" is going to be extremely difficult to use as terrain given some of the movements are 5". That's another challenge we have had given the terrain that OF has available. If you go WYSIWYG on non-GW terrain/OOP terrain this is one of the challenges players will face and should have a conversation about before the game.

3rd. If you have terrain set up in such a fashion that you are on more of a cityscape, hivecity, space hulky sort of thing where there are LOTS of vertical distances, then first remember that it's ONLY ruins that have that rule. The Battlescape, that tall refinery/pipeline thingy that came out during Shadowwars, etc etc, are not ruins, UNLESS you define it that way. Scratch built terrain, certainly you can have the conversation with your opponent. Bear in mind that pretty much everything that isn't "pre-defined" by the BRB is essentially hills even if they aren't. And that means the only real effect, since you don't get model eligibility for a cover save, is if you get full LOS blocking terrain pieces. the BRB defines a hill as "...raised areas that offer troops on top of them commanding views and fields of fire" So it really doesn't matter if it's a piece of foam with grass or a piece of plastic with railings, gantry's and raised walkways. The important bit for the game is "do you gain eligibility for a cover save". 

4th. We've had this discussion on these forums regarding cover save, and we've had these discussions regarding OF terrain. Pretty much everyone is in the same boat. Almost every piece of terrain that everyone has (OF, game stores, personal use at home) really only qualifies as "hills". 8E, in it's simplified manner, seperates the esoteric conversation into two simple answers. "Does this piece of terrain make a model eligible for a cover save; Yes/no". So if there is a piece of terrain that should allow a cover save, but doesn't, because it's not 8E ruins, then there needs to be a pre-game conversation between the players, or possibly the TO needs to have a pre-event briefing regarding the terrain, etc, about how, if it should give a cover save it does so. One of the simplest manners of doing so, certainly a very comfortable manner of doing so, is to simply qualify a piece of terrain as "ruins". But it doesn't have to be that way because the rules actually says "scratch built terrain" as opposed to "hills". It may be, in regards to your query, that a piece of terrain makes models eligible for a cover save, but does not have the ruins rule regarding Monsters/Vehicles. That would make it scratch built terrain rules, which is fine and something to have a pre-game conversation about. BRB says "If you wish to incorporate such terrain features into your battlefields, you and your opponent will need to devise your own rules for them". Certainly, if a piece of terrain is WYSIWYG capable of allowing a vehicle/monster on it but is also WYSIWYG capable of giving a cover save then simply saying "this is scratch built, gives eligibility to a cover save" and leave it at that. In reality, unless it's a GW model it can't be "Ruins" anyway.

[peter.cosgrove]

OF posesses a VERY large amount of terrain. In order to host OFCC/GG cups etc where the number of tables reaches 40-60 tables that means OF has to not only have the table boarding, the surface prep (mats/felting, etc), it also has to have all the terrain to make the tables worthwhile to play on thematically. Since OF hosts events where multiple systems are playing at the same time (Warhammer/9th Age/AOS/Infinity/Malifeaux/Warmachine/Blood Bowl/Shadowwars) it means having Lots of nice looking terrain and table prep available. 8E has, perhaps, caused a certain amount of consternation regarding terrain rules. Since 8E has dropped we have had 2 terrain days to conduct repair/replace/improvements on our existing terrain as well as personal efforts to add to our existing terrain with asthetic and thematic fashion and appeal. I would recommend that if you want to assist the overall efforts and to address your query directly that you come to our next terrain day, we still have large amount of unbuilt terrain and basing that can be built and painted up to better alleviate the 8E terrain angst.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

First, personally, if I was the opponent, knowing that the wings option is free on the Choas boon table I would just say, wow that's really cool, Oh ya? just give it wings dude, no worries

.

The wings option is not listed as free on the chaos boon table.

What it says is that the Daemon Prince generated via the chaos book does not cost any reinforcement points. It's actually vague regarding upgrades. You could certainly make a fair arguement that any legal weapon/upgrade options could be taken by Daemon Prince. The opponent could also, rationally, argue that only the basic daemon prince was free, and that other upgrades were not allowed. 

But that's all a side topic. 

What I'm not hearing from you, is your quote from the rules that suggests I can't do this. You say I can't and beat around the bush at providing a basis for your claims. As far as I can tell, your basis is, at most, a word of mouth concensus instead of one based on any printed material. 

 

As an aside, you keep going on about cover saves. The point here is not cover saves. I'm not suggesting, one way or the other, that a BIKER, MONSTER or VEHICLE will be able to obtain a cover save by being on a building.  

 

Regarding the GW kits, yes, I have seen them built like this. Doesn't matter if you use GW ruins or not, the rules do not care. I think you are making a bigger deal out of the GW terrain needing to be GW than the rules actually state. 

[peter.cosgrove]

A building isn't ruins, it's a building. Thing is, there isn't rules for buildings. There are rules for transports that don't move or may even be fixed to the terrain or map board. I would say that if two people are playing and would rather define something as a stationary unaligned transport then that piece of terrain needs to be clearly defined before the battle. And if the two players don't want to define it as either ruins or transport and would rather define it as scratch built terrain to gain eligibility for a cover save then that needs to be defined before the battle.

The thing about transports is, if you take a look at all the stuff we talked about for the Nurgle Plague Tower, how well can you define a model or terrain piece that allows models embarked in it to shoot, be shot at, be assaulted and have enemy models to be placed on the transport. It's neither easy or simple.

Sounds like the best option for what you want to do is to use the scratch built terrain rules in BRB to have a conversation before the battle about what you want the piece of terrain to be able to do.

Remember that units that are set up on the battlefield count as having moved for all rules purposes, for example shooting heavy weapons. "Typically this happens at the end of the movement phase, but it can also happen in other phases". Other phases include deployment. The key words/term is "set up", as in "The player who finished setting up their army.." and "Before setting up their armies, both players roll off..." and "-such units must be set up on the battlefield during deployment, using the Concealed Deployment rules."

[peter.cosgrove]

You know, the Daemon Prince is odd. You would think they would get more attacks or something. 189 points with wings/warp bolter. Granted hitting on 2's with re-rolls of 1. It's almost as if they want to force you to take the malefic talons. 17 damage in 6 attacks vs 8 attacks for 16 damage for  Khorne. 7 Attacks for 14 damage + Smite for the other 3. The axe at S8, hitting on 3's with a re-roll and wounding on 2's.

it's almost as if they deliberately said, We would rather you not be able to kill vehicles/models with T7/T8 with Daemon Princes.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

You know, the Daemon Prince is odd. You would think they would get more attacks or something. 189 points with wings/warp bolter. Granted hitting on 2's with re-rolls of 1. It's almost as if they want to force you to take the malefic talons. 17 damage in 6 attacks vs 8 attacks for 16 damage for  Khorne. 7 Attacks for 14 damage + Smite for the other 3. The axe at S8, hitting on 3's with a re-roll and wounding on 2's.

it's almost as if they deliberately said, We would rather you not be able to kill vehicles/models with T7/T8 with Daemon Princes.

Bored of talking in circles with you anyway, side topic it is:

Remember that the Wing upgrade is paying for mobility, not damage. The damage output is the same, with or without wings. Those wings cost 24pts or 1 power level. The Warp Bolter is also optional. So he's really only a 156pt model. As for damage of the weapon, it really depends on your target, the mark, and the legion traits involved. I'll also note that smite is not the best psychic power, especially for a daemon prince. 

For marks, Khorne has +1 attack. The others grant psychic powers. Of the psychic power options, Death Hex is very impressive when paired with Sword (Death Hex removes the target's invulnerable save, so your -3 ap sword is now also denying invulnerable saves, which makes the Prince into a Terminator slayer). Gift of Chaos is by far the most damaging one (d3+3 mortal wounds) and can target any model in range, but only works on low toughness targets. Diabolic Strength has obvious applications since it adds to both strength and attacks. The three god-specific psychic powers all grant defensive buffs, which are not lacking. That tzeentch mark also grants access to the "The Great Sorcerer" stratagem, which allows use of 2 psychic powers in a single turn. 

I will note that the PSYKER keyword is not always a good thing. And many units are able to to deny power use, and even have offensive anti-PSYKER abilities. 

For Legion Traits, many are impressive in assault. World Eaters is +1 attack on the charge, which combines with the mark of Khorne for +2 attacks on the charge. Iron Warriors grants re-rolls to wound against BUILDINGS. Renegades add the ability to Advance and charge, making the prince a lot faster (and that warp bolter IS and assault weapon). Emperor's Children grants striking first in assault, even without the charge. 

Regarding Legion Stratagems, Only Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and World Eaters have Stratagems that can apply to a Daemon Prince. 

The Weapon selection is contextual. Swords are best against targets with good armor saves (like terminators). Axes are best if you need the strength and the damager per strike to be higher. Talons are best if the target unit has lots of models or target has some ability that makes it harder to hit them. 

I will also note that the CSM prince has the Death to the False Emperor special rule, which grants bonus attacks for each 6+ rolled to hit against IMPERIUM units. 6+ means that Prescience can be used to increase the odds of more attacks. Black Legion also has a Warlord trait that bumps this to a 5+. So with Prescience and that warlord trait, you could be gaining bonus attacks on rolls of 4+ (effectively). Not hard to see the applications there. 

As a further aside, and I always forget this, Abaddon defaults to that Warlord Trait and that Death to the False Emperor ability. So his up to 12 attacks can further generate up to 12 more attacks...And as KHORNE INFANTRY, he can fight twice in one fight phase for a meager 2 CP. So, in theory, Abaddon can strike up to 58 times in a given Fight phase....rerolling on failed hits too. And you say he isn't worth his points....He might not be, but his potential is certainly impressive.

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Remember that units that are set up on the battlefield count as having moved for all rules purposes.

Can you tell me where this is found in the rulebook? That's what I've been looking for and can't find it. 

[peter.cosgrove]

176, 177, 183, and anywhere where it says "Set up".

"A unit must be set up and finish any sort of move as a group"

"Many units have the ability to be set up"

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further"

"When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield"

"When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately"

"Create the Battlefield and set up terrain"

"Before setting up their armies"

"Models must be set up in their own deployment zone"

"Set up the Daemon Prince within 6" of your character"

 

 

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

For marks, Khorne has +1 attack.

For Legion Traits, many are impressive in assault. World Eaters is +1 attack on the charge, which combines with the mark of Khorne for +2 attacks on the charge. Emperor's Children grants striking first in assault, even without the charge. 

Regarding Legion Stratagems, Only Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and World Eaters have Stratagems that can apply to a Daemon Prince. 

The Weapon selection is contextual. Swords are best against targets with good armor saves (like terminators). Axes are best if you need the strength and the damager per strike to be higher. Talons are best if the target unit has lots of models or target has some ability that makes it harder to hit them.

 

 

The legion traits don't apply to the daemon prince, only infantry/bikers/helbrutes. And the sword/talon are, for all intentional purposes, exactly the same. Same str, same AP, only diff is damage, but the talons grant re-rolls to wound. And all in all they don't present a very real threat to even a Rhino. According to the stats it should take a Daemon Prince two turns to kill a Rhino. It's very odd. It has stats, except for the re-roll 1's on the aura, that resemble a helbrute. The exception is that the Daemon Prince is a character with under 10 wounds.

[Guest]

Check the FAQ for CSM. Princes now get legion traits.

Sword has -3 ap, but same strength and damage as the talons. Axe is same ap as the talons, but more strength and damage.

A Khorne prince with an axe will have 5 attacks. The prince will realistically hit 5 times. It will wound on 3s, making for about 4 wounds. The rhino will save on 5s, meaning they be hit about 3 times. That's 9 damage. I believe the rhino has 10 wounds. So it will barely survive.

But sure, you could call that 2 rounds of survival.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

176, 177, 183, and anywhere where it says "Set up".

176 mentions set up in regard to unit coherency. It mentions that the entire unit must be set up together and it also mentions that when moving the unit must finish moving in coherency. It does not state that set up is movement.  

177 does have an interesting bit regarding reinforcements which does regard units "set up" or "deployed" as having counted as moved. I had missed this bit. It doesn't cover Deployment/Set up at the start of game, only times where models are added during the game (like arriving from deep strike or summoned daemons). So regarding the Daemon Prince, they definitely count as moving when "set up" but only because it is specifically covered regarding mid-turn "set up" of units. 

183 mentiones Set up twice in the transport rules. Once they mention setting up units embarked in transports at the start of the game, but no mention is made regarding this counting as moving. They also mention the act disembarking to be setting up models, and in this case, disembarking does count as moving even if they choose not to move further in their turn. It does refer to this as being an for models that disembark, rather than a more general restiction on models that are set up. 

I will note that the general rules themselves don't actually cover pre-turn 1 set up at all. That's found in the mission rules, like those on page 187. Each mission covers this individually. So I suppose it would be up to the mission writer on how deployment was handled in each game. And in the mission rules on page 187, I'm not seeing any mention of deployment restrictions, like not being able to deploy on impassable terrain - not saying this means you can, but it is interesting that it just isn't covered in any direct manner. 

Anyway, Thanks for the references. Doesn't directly state you can't do what I was suggesting, but it is certainly more murky than I thought it was. Not clear cut at all. 

[Guest]

Found another interesting one. Page 248, which is the page with the ruin rules on it. It says, very clearly (top left), that the rules for Battlefield Terrain are OPTIONAL. So if it's just about cover saves, the rules on page 181 for "Terrain and Cover" are allowed to cover all terrain features. There's no need to restrict ruins to require 50% concealment for vehicles, limit who can traverse them, or to limit who can end their move on upper levels. Next time I play, I think I'm going to request this of my opponent. So much easier. 

[Sugarlessllama]

On 12/8/2017 at 10:14 AM, paxmiles said:

Also, this is fluff thing for me as much as it is rules. If the opponent points out that a given ruin just doesn't look sturdy enough for "heavy" vehicles, that seems fair. I get that. I could put a sentinel or rapier, but imperial knight or land raider just can't, that makes sense and is reasonable. 

1

I would say this: this is either a fluff question or it isn't. What I mean by this, is that fluff based scenarios should be played in an "open" or "narrative" game setting; and not in a matched play setting. And if it is an "open" or "narrative" game setting, then it doesn't matter what it says in the book. In many ways, the book becomes moot and everything should be resolved according to player consent, using the rules only as a guideline. 

In a matched play scenario you would need the TO to make the call. And if I were the TO I would likely say no, a model cannot deploy to a location it cannot end it's movement in.

So are you asking because you want to play a fluffy game or a competitive game? That is where the answer to this question truly lies. 

[Swan-of-War]

per the Warhammer Rulebook FAQ (pg 2)

 

Page 248 –

Ruins Change the first paragraph of rules text to read: ‘Unless they can Fly, Vehicles, Monsters, Cavalry and Bikers can only be set up or end their move on the ground floor of ruins.’

 

emphasis mine

[Sugarlessllama]

4 hours ago, Swan-of-War said:

per the Warhammer Rulebook FAQ (pg 2)

 

Page 248 –

Ruins Change the first paragraph of rules text to read: ‘Unless they can Fly, Vehicles, Monsters, Cavalry and Bikers can only be set up or end their move on the ground floor of ruins.’

 

emphasis mine

There is also the FAQ.

[Guest]

On December 31, 2017 at 5:39 AM, Swan-of-War said:

per the Warhammer Rulebook FAQ (pg 2)

 

Page 248 –

Ruins Change the first paragraph of rules text to read: ‘Unless they can Fly, Vehicles, Monsters, Cavalry and Bikers can only be set up or end their move on the ground floor of ruins.’

 

emphasis mine

Awesome, thank you. Answers the question from the original post perfectly.