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paxmiles

Vindicator Linebreaker question

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Linebreaker Bombardment Stratagem in the CSM codex (same stratagem is also found in the SM codex)

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Quote

Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase if a <LEGION> Chaos Vindicator is within 6" of 2 other friendly <LEGION> Chaos Vindicators. If you do so, the Vindicators cannot fire their demolisher cannons this phase - instead, select a visible point on the battlefield within 24" of all three vehicles. Rolls a dice for each unit within 3" of that point. Add 1 to the result if the unit being rolled for has 10 or more models, but subtract 1 if the unit being rolled for is a CHARACTER. On a 4+ that unit suffers 3d3 mortal wounds.  

So, my question, can I use this Stratagem after advancing with all three tanks?

It's not, strictly speaking, a shooting attack. It certainly functions in the shooting phase. It, like smoke launchers, is done instead of making a shooting attack. They did FAQ smoke launchers to be useable after advancing.

Just asking. 

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Ehh... I would be inclined to say that you can? I mean you can't shoot if you advance but this isn't a shooting attack so yea I would say yes. 

But I think people would maybe complain about this? Even though your taking 3 demolishers in your army and already handicapping yourself.

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25 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

Ehh... I would be inclined to say that you can? I mean you can't shoot if you advance but this isn't a shooting attack so yea I would say yes. 

But I think people would maybe complain about this? Even though your taking 3 demolishers in your army and already handicapping yourself.

Yeah, it's certainly an odd corner case. I mean, it is 375pts of shooting to deal surprisingly little damage. 

That said, I've had good results and they draw fire away from my super heavies due to them also being T8.

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Yea I feel those point could be better spent elsewhere? I mean it seems like your trying to play within the confines of fluff and world eaters so... Bloodletter bomb and a winged khorne dp? Maybe a bunch of zerkers.

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5 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

Yea I feel those point could be better spent elsewhere? I mean it seems like your trying to play within the confines of fluff and world eaters so... Bloodletter bomb and a winged khorne dp? Maybe a bunch of zerkers.

Well, we can charge with the vindicators in this edition....not a good plan, but it is an option. Nah, I do see your point, just trying to figure out how best to execute a world eaters army, given that I've have lots of issues getting CSM to melee. We just don't have the transport options that most other factions have, and our troops are expensive. Plus Khorne has a sheer lack of buffing units as being unable to take psykers really limits our CSM support options. AoS Khorne has lots of support options, 40k khorne does not. 

Also not a huge fan of taking a DP character. I love the idea of gaining a DP in-game via the Chaos Boon table, but princes can't roll on that table, so that sucks. Last game I ran two Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirsters, which wasn't too bad. Really wondering how they'll change with the new codex this weekend. 

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Well you may not like dp's but they are fast and will enable you to catch up to the deepstruck bloodletters, giving you rerolls of 1's. They are one of the best units in the codex.

If you go alpha legion but with Mark of khorne, you could get a unit of 20 zerkers to "deepstrike", move, then charge. That would be an excellent way to distract players tun 1 and kill some things. Plus with 20 zerkers in their face turn 1 you can move the rest of your army forward without much worry. Again you can add a dp for more cc and rerolls or a jumpack Lord.

400ish points gets you two rhinos with 10 beszerkers each. Not the greatest plan with only two rhinos but it'll work. The plan would work much better with like 4+ rhinos filled with crazy dudes.

The real problem isn't with the deployment options, but khorne and world eaters. They push you into units that have limited mobility or take away from your deployment options.

So if I was going to make an army with all MoK and mostly World Eaters, with no dp's I would do;

Battalion D- WrldEtrs

Lord w/jumpack

Exalted Champion

10 zerkers w/rhino

10 zerkers w/rhino

9 zerkers w/rhino

Patrol D -demons

Bloodthirster (either will do)

Herald on a juggernaut

30x bloodletters

Patrol D - Alpha Legion

Lord w/ jumpack

1 troop to taste

20x zerkers

So turn one you deepstrike the 30x bloodletters, 20x zerkers and a Lord. Herald advances to keep in range of the bloodletters. Zerkers charge turn 1, bloodletters try to charge. Rhinos, second Lord and bloodthirster advance. Turn 2 charge EVERYTHING!!!

With a herald, 2 Lords and a champion you have tons of auras to make you way more choppy. Is it good? Probably not. Would it be awesome? Yes!

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1 hour ago, SPaceORK said:

Well you may not like dp's but they are fast and will enable you to catch up to the deepstruck bloodletters, giving you rerolls of 1's. They are one of the best units in the codex.

.....

So turn one you deepstrike the 30x bloodletters, 20x zerkers and a Lord. Herald advances to keep in range of the bloodletters. Zerkers charge turn 1, bloodletters try to charge. Rhinos, second Lord and bloodthirster advance. Turn 2 charge EVERYTHING!!!

With a herald, 2 Lords and a champion you have tons of auras to make you way more choppy. Is it good? Probably not. Would it be awesome? Yes!

How are you deep striking bloodletters? Unless it's part of the new codex, they can't do that turn 1. Or rather they can, as per daemonic ritual, but only to deep strike no more than 12" away from a CHARACTER that doesn't move during the movement phase. So unless they come to you, it's a tough uphill battle to make melee with bloodletters by turn 1. Also, they can't deep strike at all if included in a detachment, only if they are summoned via reserve points can they deepstrike. 

Also, I've been unclear, but I think you can't field a 9-man berserker squad...? I was under the impression that my squad size choices were 5 man, 10 man, 15 man, or 20 man for that squad. An understrength squad (like 9 instead of 10) can be purchased, but only as part of an auxiliary detachment. I could have this wrong, though. 

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1 hour ago, SPaceORK said:

The real problem isn't with the deployment options, but khorne and world eaters. They push you into units that have limited mobility or take away from your deployment options.

I don't see an issue with the CSM deployment options, just in the transport options. CSM have a lot fewer transport options than the SM they are supposed to be stealing their tanks from. Our transports are basically, the rhino and land raider without FW. No storm ravens, no drop pods, no scout speeders, not even chimeras for our cultists. It's an annoying loss, tactically and for the thematic presence of CSM. FW fixes this, with really, really expensive model kits to do what the SM already can do. There's some pretty awesome FW units, for sale in $$$ kits...

Anyway, I went with World Eaters as a way to restrict my creative process so I don't make a dupicate mark version of each unit (which would dramatically increase the odds that the army never got finished). Not really tied to World Eater fluff. I do really like the Brasscollar chaos artefact. 

Regarding World Eater's limitations, nah, that legion trait isn't so bad in terms of pushing units. Berserkers are nice, but CSM need range too, and the World Eaters Troops CSM aren't half bad with just bolters and heavy weapons. The psyker restriction is really annoying, but not horrible. The extra attack on the charge is pretty solid, even for units that lack melee weapons. 

Though in terms of restrictions, my least favorite feature of the CSM codex is how not everything benefits from the legion trait. My khorne Juggerlord, for example, doesn't benefit from the legion trait - just stupid. 

Oh, and by far the worst is the FALLEN which are unable to enter CSM transports at all, since they lack the legion trait...

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4 hours ago, paxmiles said:

How are you deep striking bloodletters? Unless it's part of the new codex, they can't do that turn 1. Or rather they can, as per daemonic ritual, but only to deep strike no more than 12" away from a CHARACTER that doesn't move during the movement phase. So unless they come to you, it's a tough uphill battle to make melee with bloodletters by turn 1. Also, they can't deep strike at all if included in a detachment, only if they are summoned via reserve points can they deepstrike. 

Also, I've been unclear, but I think you can't field a 9-man berserker squad...? I was under the impression that my squad size choices were 5 man, 10 man, 15 man, or 20 man for that squad. An understrength squad (like 9 instead of 10) can be purchased, but only as part of an auxiliary detachment. I could have this wrong, though. 

They can deepstrike via the new codex so no summoning junk.

You can buy 5 zerkers then purchase one at a time until you get to the desired amount.

 

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2 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

They can deepstrike via the new codex so no summoning junk.

You can buy 5 zerkers then purchase one at a time until you get to the desired amount.

 

That first one is going to be a game changer. 

Regarding the second one, where are you reading this? As I read it, each "Power level" represents a full squad. So a 9-man unit would be considered an undersized 10-man unit. That is, unless the unit in question lists an option for a 9 man squad. 

Otherwise, why does it list them in steps? Why not just say this unit can have 5 to 20 models?

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5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

That first one is going to be a game changer. 

Regarding the second one, where are you reading this? As I read it, each "Power level" represents a full squad. So a 9-man unit would be considered an undersized 10-man unit. That is, unless the unit in question lists an option for a 9 man squad. 

Otherwise, why does it list them in steps? Why not just say this unit can have 5 to 20 models?

Assume people are talking about Matched Play.

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8 hours ago, paxmiles said:

That first one is going to be a game changer. 

Regarding the second one, where are you reading this? As I read it, each "Power level" represents a full squad. So a 9-man unit would be considered an undersized 10-man unit. That is, unless the unit in question lists an option for a 9 man squad. 

Otherwise, why does it list them in steps? Why not just say this unit can have 5 to 20 models?

Hold on there, it costs a command points to deepstrike.

Don't worry what PL something is. When playing matched play, you buy the minimum squad then buy models till you have the amount you want.

Why don't they say you can have 5-20 models? Cause then PL wouldn't work. You would have to make each marine like .75 PL. 

 

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Note that even the Power Level entries say things like "May add up to 5 more Berzerkers (PL+6)" or whatever. You pay the full PL if you're building your Army that way, but only the Matched Play Points for the Models you actually take, and it's not an Understrength Unit unless it's smaller than the minimum Unit Size.

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3 hours ago, WestRider said:

Note that even the Power Level entries say things like "May add up to 5 more Berzerkers (PL+6)" or whatever. You pay the full PL if you're building your Army that way, but only the Matched Play Points for the Models you actually take, and it's not an Understrength Unit unless it's smaller than the minimum Unit Size.

Gottcha. Thanks for the clarification.

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