Trident Realms + Undead Allies 2250, new to KoW

[Swan-of-War]

(Copied my post from the Mantic forums, hence the weird formatting)

Looking to start my first army as Trident Realms with some Undead Allies (fits my theme). Can you critique my list?

Placoderm Horde
Placoderm Horde
Placoderm Defender
Gigas Horde

-these guys seem fantastic, do they still get Ensnare? Looks to be the best anvil units in the list and I’m paying a premium for them. Gigas are there to guard a flank and the Defender hangs around to inspire and help out in a fight. Are two placo hordes too much? Could I get away with Naiad Ensnarers instead (or just one horde of Placoderms instead of two)?

Necromancer
Wraith Troop
Wraith Troop
Zombie Regiment

-the undead allies help with the center line. Zombies anchor the other flank with the help of the two Wraiths to wipe any units that engage them or the Placoderms. Does the necro need to inspire them at all given that they’re mostly throw away units? Or should he have lightning bolts instead?

Wyrmrider Centurion
Wyrmrider Horde

-my first hammer, they seem awesome. Should I run one of the Wraiths ahead of them for cover and diversion or is the Fog good enough as extra protection.

Kraken

-my second hammer, he must be released

Knucker

-my anti warmachine and anything else that doesn’t want to be hit by a fish missile. Should I take two?

Thuul Mythican + Lightning Bolts

I like this guy. He has a surprising number of attacks for a caster and, with the Inspiring Amulet, looks like he could even replace the Placoderm Defender. Lightning helps pick off chaff and lingering units. Do I need him?

My plan would he to deploy as an Oblique Line, the Placo hordes anchoring along one table edge while the faster units move from side to side like a window wiper.

Comments? Am I too heavy/ light in anything? I like the Siren too - would she fit well into this type of army?

Thanks!

[Brother Glacius]

Just remember that with a horde width, and only a 4" move, you are going to get hit first with your placoderms. I have to say a 6+ def infantry is pretty brutal though and phalanx protects you from TC (from the front).

As to the necro, he should be there for surging flank charges, and heals. Healing your placs seems like a much better use of his talents than using lightning.

I don't know about the Knuckler. His stats are low enough that it wouldn't take too much missile fire to render him useless.

I'd keep the Defender as his defense and Individual are going to make him hard to pick off and thus he'll be a steady source of inspiring, where the thuul wouldn't.

Hope that helps.

[gilgamesh]

Looks like a fun list and an interesting mix of armies.  A note about allies,  the heros can't inspire accross lines and you can't use spells across lines.

you could trade out a placoderm for ensarers, they are amazing sitting in a woods or behind a wall. The defender is a good choice,  with his high def he can also hold up a regiment for a few turns,  could give him a number of items.  

The zombies will be a good roadblock.  Your necromancer should definitely be used to surge the wraiths.  A neat trick with them, is to sit them just behind your lines and then after your placs get charged, fly the wraiths 10 over your and the enemy lines then use the nimble in the wraiths to do a 180.  Then use surge to get a rear charge!  Lightning could be useful for the necro as you wait/move up.

the wyrmriders regen should help them along the way.

a second knucker could be useful to get cross diagonal flank charges, and force your opponent into awkward choices,  since they have large move.

sirens are interesting but the pull spell is hard to pull off.  You could combine it with the surge to get a flank/rear charge.

 

hope that helps.  You could maybe add some shooting,  as you have a lot of your army that is very slow,  but that is not needed.

[Kremmet]

Here's the thing about Trident Realms: they're a scenario army through and through. You're not going to out bash most dedicated combat armies, your nerve is around one pip lower than the average across the board, and you are a little more expensive than similar troops and pay for rules (Regen, Ensare, Phalanx, etc) that can be circumvented by a competent opponent. But none of that is actually bad because you're dominant in one area: time. Your opponent must spend time to get around all the weird rules your units have or suffer the consequences. Here's a link to a podcast that can explain what I'm talking about rather than me paraphrasing for the next few paragraphs: https://directmisfire.podbean.com/e/kings-of-war-trident-realms-review/

As for your list in particular, I can provide a quick rundown of that.

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Placoderm Horde
Placoderm Horde
Placoderm Defender
Gigas Horde

-these guys seem fantastic, do they still get Ensnare? Looks to be the best anvil units in the list and I’m paying a premium for them. Gigas are there to guard a flank and the Defender hangs around to inspire and help out in a fight. Are two placo hordes too much? Could I get away with Naiad Ensnarers instead (or just one horde of Placoderms instead of two)?

I think you're going a little too hard on the Placoderm package here. The Defender isn't necessary and could easily be swapped out for the Siren for more list flexibility (on top of the ever-important ranged attack) and true Inspiring. I'd find the 30 pts to nab her by swapping one horde of Placoderms for a horde of Ensarers with the Dragonshard Shield (-40 pts for the list). This will give you a better rounded list through a mix of defensive measures while also allowing you one turn of nightmare defense (the Dragonshard Shield is an on-use item that gives you +2 DEF to any unit provided it doesn't move).

As for the Gigas, they're good and that's about all there is to it. They'd benefit from the Brew of Strength if you can find the points.

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Necromancer
Wraith Troop
Wraith Troop
Zombie Regiment

-the undead allies help with the center line. Zombies anchor the other flank with the help of the two Wraiths to wipe any units that engage them or the Placoderms. Does the necro need to inspire them at all given that they’re mostly throw away units? Or should he have lightning bolts instead?

First off, I'll start with a rules clarification: allies cannot take items so there's no way to make the Necromancer inspire their troops. You could swap for a Liche or Revenant, but I don't think that's necessary. Speaking of what's necessary, I don't think these allies really are. If you want undead-themed sea creatures, just convert up some units that are in Trident Realms or, if you really want allies, try Night-Stalkers for spoopy allies or even Forces of Nature. The problem with undead is that they're just terrible at being allies due to their need for support and allies not getting any from the parent list. Right now, you've added four units that are pretty immune to that need for support because they're just chaff, but then you've also added four units that are chaff and are not well suited to support your list.

I get that you want theme, but theme is more than just unit listings. I'd personally be more impressed if you found ways to work up reasonable counts-as units than shoehorning actual undead in. 

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Wyrmrider Centurion
Wyrmrider Horde

-my first hammer, they seem awesome. Should I run one of the Wraiths ahead of them for cover and diversion or is the Fog good enough as extra protection.

This is great stuff. I'd put some sort of offensive magical item on the horde like the Brew of Strength or Chalice of Hatred, but otherwise this is perfect. The one thing to keep in mind with Wyrmriders is that, like the rest of the list, they don't hit as hard as their points would suggest nor are they the toughest. They're meant to confuse, disrupt, and take opportunistic kills. Don't just slam into the enemy line and expect them to Get [big bad swear word] Done™.

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Kraken

-my second hammer, he must be released

Personally, I prefer the giant to the Kraken, but he's still a good choice. Just remember that CoK18 made the base longer on these things (giggidy).

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Knucker

-my anti warmachine and anything else that doesn’t want to be hit by a fish missile. Should I take two?

Despite what has been written above, the Knucker is widely considered one of the best units in Trident Realms which really comes down to one thing: speed. To repeat the theme of the army, the Knucker is not a blunt tool. To be used effectively, you need to be running behind enemy lines with it to set up lose-lose scenarios for your opponent. If they turn to face the Knucker, they should be facing a flank charge from another combat-capable unit. If they don't, the Knucker can flank charge them to support or just continue on its merry to setup even worse charges. 

The same can be said about ranged options against the Knucker. Use terrain to your advantage to force bad shots while also always giving your opponent options about shooting the Knucker or shooting another unit closing in. That said, a major weakness of Trident Realms—and what holds them back from being a terror on the tournament scene—is that they're incredibly weak to heavy-shooting lists.

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Thuul Mythican + Lightning Bolts

I like this guy. He has a surprising number of attacks for a caster and, with the Inspiring Amulet, looks like he could even replace the Placoderm Defender. Lightning helps pick off chaff and lingering units. Do I need him?

Thuul Mythicans are great, but should always have Bane Chant on them. Trident Realms units don't hit super hard, but need to break whatever they do choose to fight due to the finesse nature of the list. The biggest boost you can have against almost anything is an additional +1 to wound. As a basic rule, always take Bane Chant when you can.

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My plan would he to deploy as an Oblique Line, the Placo hordes anchoring along one table edge while the faster units move from side to side like a window wiper.

This is a good theory, but in practice is more likely to get you killed. You need to be less focused on your battle strategy and more on disruption of the scenario. Your hordes would benefit more from looking for whatever zone they can camp in to worry the opponent (all the better if there's a forest/other significant difficult terrain there) while your faster units constantly threaten flank charges and immediacy of threat to slow the opposition down. It's all about running down the clock here—you're going for a decision victory rather than a KO.

[Brother Glacius]

Sorry about the bad advice for allied spell use. Wasn't in the allies section, but was tucked away in the magic section. Grrrr.

[Swan-of-War]

Great advice everyone, thanks!  I need to pick ion CoK 18 and get to know the rules changes and new magic items.  Think I’ll have my first list ready to play soon- 

[Swan-of-War]

Switching it up, how does this Undead w/Trident Realms allies look instead?  Comes to 2,055 out of 2,250 - so 145 pts of magic items/ upgrades / chaff to slide in

 

BATTLE LINE

Zombie Legion (60) (anvil)

Wight Regiment (3) (flank guard)

Gigas Horde (6) (flank guard)

Revenant King on Foot (support, surge and inspire to undead)

Necromancer on Foot w/Lightning (surge and ranged)

Wraith Troop (10) (support and flank/rear surge)

 

HAMMER #1

Soul Reaver Cavalry Regiment (10) (hammer)

Revenant King on Horse (hammer and support)

Wraith Troop (10) (to be surged by the Rev King)

 

HAMMER #2

Werewolf Horde (6)

 

HAMMER #3

Kraken (monster)

 

WARMACHINE

Balefire Catapult (anti-monster.  could take a leviathan's bane instead)

 

[Kremmet]

Neither the Undead nor the Trident Realms war machines are much worth taking. Spend those points on spellcasters instead if you want a firebase. 

[Brother Glacius]

I would not agree with that. Sure, they can be a crapshoot, but sometimes that is what you need. No spell caster in the game will give you the same one hit impact that a catapult has.

[Swan-of-War]

5+ to hit is pretty meh but I did notice that the Leviathan Bane has two shots vs. the Catapult's one.   Does about half the damage (D3+1) but with a sweet, sweet Piercing (4).

anyways, this game looks fun

[Kremmet]

11 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

I would not agree with that. Sure, they can be a crapshoot, but sometimes that is what you need. No spell caster in the game will give you the same one hit impact that a catapult has.

No, it won't give you the same one-hit impact, but it will give you more impact on average. Once an artillary piece is over 100 pts, you're often better off swapping it for something that can move and shoot, shift on its axis to deal with flankers, and take items. 

Even the best artillary isn't worth it in terms of the math or opportunity costs all the time and neither the Undead nor the Trident Realms have anything close to the best. 

That same one-shot impact that you're valuing is just too much of a gamble compared to spending your points safer elsewhere. It's like putting all your savings on 23 instead of in a Roth IRA: it could payoff big, but the retirement fund is waaaaaaaay more likely to. 

[gilgamesh]

Warmachines are definitely hit and miss. They can be fun to use but just need to not rely on it to do something. 

Looks like you did a big swing to more undead.  I like the list looks pretty punchy with all the hammers.  You should try playtesting it and see if you like how it feels.

[Swan-of-War]

Here's some WIP pics - Trident Realms with Undead Allies.  My theme is Neriticans defending their watery realm, gathering on an old battlesite where a pirate ship was scuttled by placoderm ambushers.  An allied necromancer is using his powers to bolster the Trident Realm's strength with a legion of zombies and troops of wraiths.

Love the multibasing and diorama opportunities in this game, I built my theme around the Gloomtide Shipwreck and will be adding some coral scenics from the Barbed Venomgorse boxes.

Just waiting for the new Deepkin Eel Riders to be released and I should be close to done!  I'm using Wrath of Kings Hadross and Deepkin models for the Trident Realms, Hordes stuff for the undead.  I mixed some of the models into other unit's bases to make them look more disordered and such.  Will also add more scenic bits and skeleton pirate crew once all my models come and I can lay them out. 

[Brother Glacius]

Very cool. Love the models.

[gilgamesh]

Wo baby! those look great.  What models are you using for the undead portion of it? Interested to see the rest of your build out.  Any ideas of your paint scheme yet?

[Kremmet]

The undead look to be a mix of Privateer Press' Bog Trog Shamblers and Blackbane'a Ghost Pirates. 

[ClassicFlava]

Looks great!