Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Lord Hanaur

Avanti questions

Recommended Posts

How do?

So I cannot find ANYWHERE the 75mm Cannon statistics for the Italians (I own 4).  I also have TWO tanks that are a total mystery (pooooooosibly Carro Comando?).  I'm at a loss to identify what they even are!  I think they are probably like "leader tanks" but they look so different that I cannot place them.  I probably have just used them as "leader tanks" before but honestly they dont look like anything I can find.  Looks prettyu clearly like it belongs.

I am quite disappointed to report that somewhere is an entire unit of black based italians that I might have left at Enfilade the last time I played them, and I am rather upset because they were my Demolition Squad with most of my flame throwers and such.  =(.  Scoured everything I had to find them, but hey are officially and probably forever gone.  If anyone ever found them or has them, PLEASE let me know.  Twould be cool.

Otherwise here is what I have for Italy.  

Tank Company Tank Formation

2pts  Tank Comapny HQ (1x M14)

12pts  M14/41 Tank Platoon (5x M14)

16pts Semovente SP Battery (4x Semovente)

 

Bersaglieri Weapons Company Weapons Formation

1pts  2xBersagieri Weapons Company HQ

8pts Weapons Platoon (3xMG, 1xHMG, 1x20mm, 1x47mm)

8pts Weapons Platoon (3xMG, 1xHMG, 1x20mm, 1x47mm)

8pts Weapons Platoon (3xMG, 1xHMG, 1x20mm, 1x47mm)

8pts  47mm Anti-Tank Platoon (4x47mm)

 

Bersaglieri Rifle Company Infantry Formation

1pts  Bersaglieri Rifle Company HQ (2x Carcano Rifle Teams)

5pts  Rifle Platoon (5xBreda MG & Carcano Rifle Teams)

5pts  Rifle Platoon (5xBreda MG & Carcano Rifle Teams)

3pts  Breda MG Platoon (3x Breda HMG)

4pts  47mm Anti-Tank Platoon (2x47mm)

 

SUPPORT:

15pts  Assault Engineer Platoon (5MG&Carcano, 2 Mortars, 2 Flamers)

12pts  100mm Howitzer Platoon (4 x 100mm Howitzers)

5pts  CR.42 Falco Assault Section (1xCR.42 Falco's) 

 

Total Points: 113

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay so other questions as well for those who would deign to help:  Do Support Units just go into the other Formations as part of them OR are they just listed separatly as i have here?  Seems like they would need to be attached to a Formation...  But not sure.  

Another question:

The M14 LOOKS inferior to me, and that was true previously as well.  My question really is, how much better, if any, is the price I'm paying for inferior tanks. Or to put it another way:  Am I getting enough of a discount on them to like them for assault and simple anti-personnel, which they do seem decent at.  The M14 essentially acts like two HMG teams on the move, with the added bonus of always being in bulletproof cover (armor) and being actually tough to kill in an assault.  So i can see them serving in a cover-to-cover kind of an assault role to get behind gun teams and slice them up.  But overpaying for them isn't something I'd like to do.  They cannot stand up to most anti-tank weapons but if you aim them at the right target and make intelligent and patient use of cover...  I mean...

Third Question:  

The Features for the units are listed in Avanti, without much explanation.  So...  am I just being dense and missing something?  For example, 100mm Howitzer Battery says it has the Feature "Emergency Anti-Tank".  This just seems like fluff.  Does this refer to a rule or something?

\

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the book. I'll have to look at it again to answer most of your questions. The command carros are gone. No more separate command only vehicles for the semovantes. The Italians are great at remounting. And due to mid-war's average firepower values, they end up being very survivable even though they have low stats. They are a swarm army now.

Yeah, I also really hate those items that look like special rules, and then you can't find them defined anywhere. I think you just need to search a little longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Souldier3 said:

Support units are attached to a formation. They are not a 'Other formation' or a separate formation.

Okay and it doesn't matter which one right?  They are essentially "universally" part of the other formations?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/6/2018 at 10:27 PM, Lord Hanaur said:

...

The M14 LOOKS inferior to me, and that was true previously as well.  My question really is, how much better, if any, is the price I'm paying for inferior tanks. Or to put it another way:  Am I getting enough of a discount on them to like them for assault and simple anti-personnel, which they do seem decent at.  The M14 essentially acts like two HMG teams on the move, with the added bonus of always being in bulletproof cover (armor) and being actually tough to kill in an assault.  So i can see them serving in a cover-to-cover kind of an assault role to get behind gun teams and slice them up.  But overpaying for them isn't something I'd like to do.  They cannot stand up to most anti-tank weapons but if you aim them at the right target and make intelligent and patient use of cover...  I mean...

RE: M14

M14/41 or Semovente Platoon (Plastic)(IBX14)
https://flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=6007
Is Hit On 4+
Fast: Follow Me on 3+
Remount: 2+
HEAT rounds: do not add +1 to targets' front armor when shooting at ranges over 16"

AVANTI: ITALIAN FORCES IN NORTH 1942-1943
http://btassault.wpengine.com/avanti-italian-forces-in-north-africa-1942-43-first-review/

AVANTI – DEEPER DIVE
http://btassault.wpengine.com/avanti-deeper-dive/

No Dice, No Glory Episode 2: Avanti Reviewed and Spoiled
http://nodicenoglory.libsyn.com/no-dice-no-glory-episode-2-avanti-reviewed-and-spoiled

Italians in Mid War: AVANTI Reviewed and Spoiled
http://nodicenoglory.com/2018/01/11/italians-in-mid-war-avanti-reviewed-and-spoiled/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Okay and it doesn't matter which one right?  They are essentially "universally" part of the other formations?

OK, to clarify, in order of hierarchy:

Force = Army list. 1 or more formations + support, including Allies.

Formation (previously known as "Company" for most nations, or "Batalon" for Russkies) Compulsory platoons plus others in the formation (previously listed as "Weapons Platoons")

Unit: either a platoon (USA, UK, GE, FR) or company (IT, USSR) or Battery

 

Force Support is not 'attached" to a formation, it is supporting your formation(s) in the force.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice resources.  ill scope em out as soon as I can.  So is this a "yes they have a nice niche for the price" or is this "I have no opinion, form your own using these following resources".

So then...the Support ISN'T attached to Formations.  Okay.  Lol.  So can I put all 3 of my support Detachments into my list, and they just dont count towards Formation checks and such?  is that accurate?

I'm just trying to determine if going to Enfilade is viable for me and what I should do.  I don't want to bring a list that isn't legal.  Also trying to evaluate whether taking the tanks will make sense for me.  Them 47mm guns are decent on defense but not suh great on offense.  Lol.  buuut...  Howitzers are pretty good in a pinch...  Tough calls all around.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

So is this a "yes they have a nice niche for the price" or is this "I have no opinion, form your own using these following resources"

I think the Italians are a nice niche for both:

  • Attacking Allied infantry, and
  • a good defensive army when Allied tanks are the attackers.

Having the options of good italian guns or "Allied" German units makes for a range of choices and experiments.

They are on my list to buy and paint.

I just have other projects in the queue ahead of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

speaking of which is the hierarchy of who goes first still a thing?  I have been focusing so much on the codex and models that I sort of have neglected to re-read the actual book.  Finding time for all the games I play is...fun...  Lol

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

So then...the Support ISN'T attached to Formations.  Okay.  Lol.  So can I put all 3 of my support Detachments into my list, and they just dont count towards Formation checks and such?  is that accurate?

Yes. If all of your formations depart (1), then your supporting units go with them.

In a 71 -point list, I run:

  • one formation, and
  • Supporting units for the entire force

In a larger list, I would run two formations

  1. #1 Small formation with just the compulsory units, maybe (e.g. Bersaglieri Weapons Co. of 2 platoons, + HQ)
  2. #2 Larger formation with more than the minmum:
  • Tank Company with 3 platoons + HQ, or
  • Bersaglieri Rifle Co. of at least 4 platoons, + HQ

       3. Supporting units for the entire force

(1) In 4th ed. failing "Formation Last Stand" is similar to the 3rd edition failing "Company Morale"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

theres a KEY word missing that came up in our games when i visited.  The Formation last stand does not say "on the board" as far as i can see, although that really is kind of hard to imagine being their intent.  has there been an FAQ on that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

speaking of which is the hierarchy of who goes first still a thing?  I have been focusing so much on the codex and models that I sort of have neglected to re-read the actual book.  Finding time for all the games I play is...fun...  Lol

 

Unless there is a Higher headquarters (usually from a command card, e.g., Rommel), One of the Formation Commanders is dubbed as also serving as the Force Commander.

Force Cdr: In charge of his own formation, plus in charge of the Force.

Think of an ACUTAL German Kampfgruppe (KG) (or American Task Force - TF).

  1. The German Infantry battalion commander is in charge of his battalion =- Infantry Formation Commander.
  2. He is also in charge of the KG (KG Cdr) = Force Commander
  3. He also directs the missions of supporting units in the KG, that are not organic to the Infantry Battalion.
  4. If a Panzer Battalion is part of the KG, the KG Cdr directs the missions and general movements of the Pz BN.
  5. The Pz BN Cdr leads the Pz BN and give them detailed orders = Pz Formation Commander.

In FoW 4th ed., Officers in charge of Forces and Formations are "Commanders". Officers or NCOs in charge of units are "Unit Leaders"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

theres a KEY word missing that came up in our games when i visited.  The Formation last stand does not say "on the board" as far as i can see, although that really is kind of hard to imagine being their intent.  has there been an FAQ on that?

Rule book p. 82, "...on the table or in reserve..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if you have 2 formations plus support and 1 formation breaks your support sticks around supporting your remaining formation?

At current points level I have never played more than 1 formation..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Souldier3 said:

So if you have 2 formations plus support and 1 formation breaks your support sticks around supporting your remaining formation?

At current points level I have never played more than 1 formation..

Yes.

But that raises a new question: If your Force Commander was in the Formation that left, who is the Force Commander, then?

  1. The remaining formation commander becomes the new Force Commander, or
  2. The Original Force Commander (and his HQ unit) remains on the table, while the rest of the failed formation departs.

I suspect it is option #1, but I have not read that anywhere. Will reasearch this...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right but one of the two units left has to include the HQ.

So if the Force Commander was killed, then does that not then cause the sudden death win?  I tabled his army in turn 2 (sorry Zeke =( ), and the first thing I killed was his Force Commander and his 2ic buddy.  So at end of two, he has no units and no HQ on the table (and no Force Commander in reserve, because I killed him).

 

So that, I thought, ended the game.  Albeit it would have been less fun and we played on and I just had to wait for more stuff to show...which was weird.  An entire turn with nothing to shooot and a turn where all there was... was a plane!

But it seems weird to me that this would not have been game over.  The Planes are support.  So they dont even count...  I'm at a loss.  It's not likely to come up very often but depending on the answer, it seems like the best play is to keep the Force Commander in reserve JUST for such an occassion.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/6/2018 at 9:41 PM, Lord Hanaur said:

How do?

So I cannot find ANYWHERE the 75mm Cannon statistics for the Italians (I own 4). ..

So I researched your Italian 75mm cannons.

I think you are referring to: "Cannone da 75/27 modello 06"

  • No mention of them in the context of Mid-War 4th edition, North Africa AVANTI releases.

Changes to the Flames Of War Range https://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=101&art_id=3160

  • The following box sets will be discontinued on Monday 20th of February.: IBX06    75/27 Cannon Battery

This Gun is still available as a Special Order: ISO505 75/27 gun
Avail online in a blister: [IT570] 75/27 gun, Two models, plus crew

My suspicion is that we might see this gun again, either:

  • On the Eastern Front, Mid-war releases: "The modernised models saw action in Africa and Russia..." , quoted from  "75/27 Gun (IT570) Cannone da 75/27 modello 06" https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=1253
  • Or much later, when Early-War is re-released for 4th ed.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, barca said:

So I researched your Italina 75mm cannons.

I think you are referring to: "Cannone da 75/27 modello 06"

  • No mention of them in the context of Mid-War 4th edition, North Africa AVANTI releases.

Changes to the Flames Of War Range https://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=101&art_id=3160

  • The following box sets will be discontinued on Monday 20th of February.: IBX06    75/27 Cannon Battery

This Gun is still available as a Special Order: ISO505 75/27 gun
Avail online in a blister: [IT570] 75/27 gun, Two models, plus crew

My suspicion is that we might see this gun again, either:

  • On the Eastern Front, Mid-war releases: "The modernised models saw action in Africa and Russia..." , quoted from  "75/27 Gun (IT570) Cannone da 75/27 modello 06" https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=1253
  • Or much later, when Early-War is re-released for 4th ed.

 

bummer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Right but one of the two units left has to include the HQ.

So if the Force Commander was killed, then does that not then cause the sudden death win?

#1. No, just 2 units from the formation must be in good spirits. HQ can be one of the 2, but does not have to be one of the 2.

#2. Force cdr's death has no immediate moral effect on its own. You don't roll a die for Formation Last Stand. You either meet the conditions, or you don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, barca said:

#1. No, just 2 units from the formation must be in good spirits. HQ does not have to be one of the 2.

#2. Force cdr's death has no immediate moral effect on its own. You don't roll a die for Formation Last Stand. You either meet the conditions, or you don't.

Page 82 seems to indicate that one of them does need to be the Company HQ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Page 82 seems to indicate that one of them does need to be the Company HQ

No, but for American readers, there may appear to be ambiguity.

Clarified in the FAQ: Lessons From The Front: 4th Edition, Last Updated MARCH 2018
https://flames-m58ip69dfg.netdna-ssl.com/portals/0/Documents/Version4/LessonsFromTheFront-V4-NB.pdf
see page 5, center column, Topic = "LAST STAND"
"A Formation is In Good Spirits if it has
two Units still in existence. Can the
HQ be one of those?
Yes it can, although it doesn’t have to be.

I am used to reading British English, in which the word order and punctuation are more precise, than in American English.

But I understand the appearance of ambiguity, and the question probably came up more than once, hence the FAQ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I call that poor English, not precse English.  They should have said "one of which can be the HQ unit but not any Transport Unit".   That would have made more sense.  But that's fine.  the FAQ is there to clear things up.

So really your HQ's dont matter.  they can die and have no effect on the game other than the nice bubble they can give for re-rolls.  they have no bearing on winning or losing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

So really your HQ's dont matter.  they can die and have no effect on the game other than the nice bubble they can give for re-rolls.  they have no bearing on winning or losing.

Seems like another effort to remove tricks from the gameplay, or just to simplify things.

Since you don't need the Formation Commander or HQ unit to be on the table, or even to be alive anymore (or operational vs bailed out), then Formation Last Stand is always a simple test, not complicated by where your Formation Commander is nor by what state they are in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×