Guest Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 1 hour ago, WestRider said: They don't have anywhere near the same value. I would be OK with the current Summoning Mechanic if it were an option you could apply to Units from your Army, to hold them in Reserves and then Summon them in instead of spending CP to "Deep Strike" them, but the costs in lost Detachment benefits and Character mobility are way, way too high for what advantage it provides in flexibility. For chaos, them being characters makes sense. For marines, you could just have a teleportation homer or locator beacon that was doing the "summoning." Could deploy some TP homers ahead of time, maybe have some vehicle/unit mounted ones too. I wouldn't suggest having the marines get damaged on doubles, like the chaos characters do with their summoning, but you could have the TP homer break if they roll too many of a certain number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 chess clocks could work like this if the game didn't finish turn 4 and used the majority of the time you lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 Clocks might not work for scoring tourney play, but given that tournaments must necessarily have time limits, they might be useful for players who are practicing for a tournament. Once you’ve figured out your list, start playing games with it and timing yourself. Keep working on getting your time down, so that you know what to do and how to push your models around to get yourself well within the tourney’s time allowance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesselowe Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 Coming at it from warmachine where chess clocks are essential to tournament play... try the old timed turn method. Warmachine games at the usual tournament scale should take two hours and about six turns; therefore, each player has 10 minutes per turn, with a 5-minute extension they can use once per game. How long, and how many turns, for a typical 40k tourney game? Speaking from experience, chess clocks and times turns really do kind of depend on one player doing most of the action on their turn. It's possible to flip the clock over to the acting player - for example, defending player rolling saves - but it can get pretty annoying. If players do a lot during the "active player's " turn, chess clocks are better than timed turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Trainer Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 4 hours ago, jesselowe said: Coming at it from warmachine where chess clocks are essential to tournament play... try the old timed turn method. Warmachine games at the usual tournament scale should take two hours and about six turns; therefore, each player has 10 minutes per turn, with a 5-minute extension they can use once per game. How long, and how many turns, for a typical 40k tourney game? Speaking from experience, chess clocks and times turns really do kind of depend on one player doing most of the action on their turn. It's possible to flip the clock over to the acting player - for example, defending player rolling saves - but it can get pretty annoying. If players do a lot during the "active player's " turn, chess clocks are better than timed turns. Tell that to the Horde armies (Guard, Orks, Nids). They get an exception or the opponent gets a penalty to share some time... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 7 hours ago, jesselowe said: Coming at it from warmachine where chess clocks are essential to tournament play... try the old timed turn method. Warmachine games at the usual tournament scale should take two hours and about six turns; therefore, each player has 10 minutes per turn, with a 5-minute extension they can use once per game. How long, and how many turns, for a typical 40k tourney game? Speaking from experience, chess clocks and times turns really do kind of depend on one player doing most of the action on their turn. It's possible to flip the clock over to the acting player - for example, defending player rolling saves - but it can get pretty annoying. If players do a lot during the "active player's " turn, chess clocks are better than timed turns. Okay, so what do you do if the player runs out of time? If your suggestion is that players that run out of time end their turn, then 40k rules mostly present an adavantage to ending the turn prematurely. Unlike warmachine, every model in 40k moves in the same movement phase, then acts in the same psychic/spell phase, then shoots together, and so forth. If running out of time means I get to skip the later phases then armies which capitalize off a particular phase are in the advantage. For example, if my army is TAU, I move, I have no psykers, but I have a very long shooting phase. If I take the max time in the shooting phase and the turn ends there, not having to do the fight phase or the morale/battleshock phase is only to my advantage. This is because those two phases work against my TAU army, and they happen later in the turn, the shooting phase is really the only phase TAU specialize in, so being able to avoid the other phases is an advantage. Warmarine avoids this issue because in warmachine, one model's actions are fully resolved before activate another. Furthermore, the opponent mostly does not act on your turn. They also resolve morale related issues at the start of the turn, rather than the end. Ending a turn prematurely is only a negative in warmachine. As a result, Chess clocks work great for warmachine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 Could enforce some sort of VP penalty for long turns, but then you just create a meta around the tactical descision of taking the longer turn vs a shorter one. The original 40k apoc expansion had an interesting rule regarding deployment. Players (teams of players in apoc) would each declare how long they required for deployment, with the shorter deployment team getting first turn. Armies unable to be fully deployed would find all of their non-deployed units arriving from the friendly board end on next turn's movement (and if the unit couldn't fully come on the board, due to space, they were destroyed as per the old reserve rules). But deployment in apoc takes a while, so I don't know how compatible that would be in small point games as a balancer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, paxmiles said: Okay, so what do you do if the player runs out of time? If your suggestion is that players that run out of time end their turn, then 40k rules mostly present an adavantage to ending the turn prematurely. Unlike warmachine, every model in 40k moves in the same movement phase, then acts in the same psychic/spell phase, then shoots together, and so forth. If running out of time means I get to skip the later phases then armies which capitalize off a particular phase are in the advantage. For example, if my army is TAU, I move, I have no psykers, but I have a very long shooting phase. If I take the max time in the shooting phase and the turn ends there, not having to do the fight phase or the morale/battleshock phase is only to my advantage. This is because those two phases work against my TAU army, and they happen later in the turn, the shooting phase is really the only phase TAU specialize in, so being able to avoid the other phases is an advantage. Warmarine avoids this issue because in warmachine, one model's actions are fully resolved before activate another. Furthermore, the opponent mostly does not act on your turn. They also resolve morale related issues at the start of the turn, rather than the end. Ending a turn prematurely is only a negative in warmachine. As a result, Chess clocks work great for warmachine. This is why chess clocks work better for 40K than timing each Turn separately. In the ITC Chess Clock Rules, you can't skip anything you would otherwise do while you have time on the clock. Once you are out of time, you can't take any actions for the rest of the game. All you can do is things that are required in response to the Opponent's actions, like rolling Saves and Morale Tests. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 Alternatively, the community could collectively decide to move to games of smaller scope. (See my arguments for this earlier in the thread.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 On 10/3/2018 at 1:29 PM, Dusldorf said: You do realize that this is how 40k worked for years, right? Makes it into a real decision whether to reserve something and, as motivated GW in this latest faq, it's more thematic. EXCEPT for the fact that you could put your entire force into reserve AND you couldn't be tabled. So.. NO it's not how it worked for years. AND you could opt for night fighting rules on turn 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 7 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said: EXCEPT for the fact that you could put your entire force into reserve AND you couldn't be tabled. So.. NO it's not how it worked for years. AND you could opt for night fighting rules on turn 1. If you note the context, we were talking specifically about reserves not being able to come in turn 1. But yes, there are also the differences you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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