Who'd play H'Orks (as in Horde Orks)

[Dark Trainer]

So I happen to own at least 2k of Orks, but not many high point sinks which leads me toward a Horde collection of them. Waiting for the codex soon, but considering finishing them off with little investment since I own them already.

I own 2 Big Meks, 60 choppa boyz, 30 shoota boyz, 15 nobs, 10 lootas, 2 burnas, 5 kommandos, 6 bikers, 6 deffkoptas, deff dread, Battlewagon, and a Trukk.

I'd probably add 2 weird boyz to gain Da'jump and use the battlewagon and trukk for mobility.

 

That said, I always feel horde armies are hard to play as they have a hard time completing in a 2.5 hour time limit like at a tourny. Would you hate playing this, love playing this, or don't care either way? I traditionally play Necrons, so 69 models is the largest army I've fielded and that was rough. What would you add to shrink model count if needed? Any additional feedback is welcome too.

[Ish]

It’s a mix of “I like playing all armies” and “depends on the player,” for me.

I mean, obviously any style army can be played by someone who’s an obnoxious unsportsmanlike jerk and that’s always going to sour the experience. 

But assuming for conversation’s sake that you are not a massive jerk ^-~, then as the player of a massive horde army you still need to go a little above and beyond. You’re going to want to practice moving your models swiftly and efficiently (I’d highly recommend movement trays). You’re also going to want to be sure you have enough dice to be able to make all your rolls with minimal re-rolling (96 shots? Better have at least 48 dice. Six come from a special gun? Better include six of a different color. Etc.) You also should make an effort to memorize as much of the rules for your units as possible and/or have a really good cheat sheet. (No one likes waiting for their opponent to read their codex.)

 

[andy]

I'd be happy to play it. Though I don't think 100 models really counts as a horde... the last game I played with my T'au had almost that many Fire Warriors at 2000 points.

[Ish]

36 minutes ago, andy said:

I'd be happy to play it. Though I don't think 100 models really counts as a horde... the last game I played with my T'au had almost that many Fire Warriors at 2000 points.

I used to play horde Imperial Guard, roughly 200-300 infantry depending on the edition. The big difference between Tau and Guard hordes versus Ork and Tyranid hordes is that Tau and Guard don’t move much. Ork and Tyranid hordes have to advance and fast.

[Inquisitor66]

meh, just move the front and back line and push the mob up in the middle.

[Ish]

Movement Trays.

[PourSpelur]

Biggest tip I picked up playing Orks, during opponents turn arrange your dice into sets. Three stacks of 20, a stack of 10 and a stack of 5 make pulling the correct amount much quicker than counting every time. Stuff like this is important with "time sink" armies. Have the book open to the page/s you will need, plan your turn before you get there and the aforementioned bulk movement all help prevent you from making your opponent stand there idle for 20 minutes.

Horde Boyz isn't my jam. I'd give a kidney for Truck boys to be a viable build, but they're just no fun to play at this moment. Even with maxed out trucks it's still a slog so you have to be just a little more considerate to make up for it. As for playing against a horde, I've played quick games and slow. All up to the player. Slowest game I've ever played, I faced a smaller army with a metric ton of psychic powers. Once again, all up to the player.

[Guest]

I have nothing against horde armies taking the field, but I usually lose against horde armies, so I kinda have a bias there....that wasn't one of the choices, so I didn't vote.

Regarding time management, it's not really an issue unique to hordes, but it should definitely be a consideration for every player. Dice is a big factor for hordes and other armies that just have lots of shots/attacks. Movement trays can work, though played against this guy were they spent more time putting them into the trays than they would have just deploying them, and then they didn't fit with the terrain, so, for him, they were counter-productive. Reference cards are very nice, also indexing your codex/knowing where things are, can make games go much faster. In general, understanding your own army rules and being able to clearly explain them to your opponent will do wonders towards making the game go smoothly.

I will note that horde armies are by far the most expensive way to play 40k, both in time and cash. New players shouldn't try to make a horde army, it should be something they aspire towards, not unlike an apoc army. 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Dark Trainer said:

So I happen to own at least 2k of Orks, but not many high point sinks which leads me toward a Horde collection of them. Waiting for the codex soon, but considering finishing them off with little investment since I own them already.

I own 2 Big Meks, 60 choppa boyz, 30 shoota boyz, 15 nobs, 10 lootas, 2 burnas, 5 kommandos, 6 bikers, 6 deffkoptas, deff dread, Battlewagon, and a Trukk.

I'd probably add 2 weird boyz to gain Da'jump and use the battlewagon and trukk for mobility.

 

That said, I always feel horde armies are hard to play as they have a hard time completing in a 2.5 hour time limit like at a tourny. Would you hate playing this, love playing this, or don't care either way? I traditionally play Necrons, so 69 models is the largest army I've fielded and that was rough. What would you add to shrink model count if needed? Any additional feedback is welcome too.

Regarding this army specifically, I don't think you have a handle on orks if you think this is a horde. If you think of 30 boyz as 10 marines, then imagine a horde of marines and how many boyz that would be. Your list seems pretty average for ork army size.

Rough equivalents, you have 20 assault marines, 10 tactical marines, 15 veterans (sternguard or vanguard), 5 devastators, 6 bikes, 3 attack bikes, 5 scouts, a rhino, a dread, and a land raider. Oh, and a couple of techmarines, with plans to add some librarians. It's a good force, but it's not a horde.

Not sure what the necron equivalents are.

30 shoota boys really do have the equivalent of 10 tactical marines. You get way more shots with the boyz, but only 1/3 shots hit under normal circumstances, and only 1/6 will make their armor saves when shot or sliced. Orks will win in melee, but that depends on the ork ability to deny armor/the marine ability to make saves (power klaws and marine players that can't roll 3+ make a big difference for orks in melee).

If you go ork hordes, should definitely get some grots...also, Storm Boyz are a good ork horde alternative to boyz in a trukk.

Regarding infantry hordes, If you keep the target "quality" about the same throughout the army, it will help muddle the opponent's weaponry. With your list, you've given clear targets for the opponent's anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons, which will work against you if the opponent has a mix of both weapon options (which is standard for list creation). A horde army would ideally focus on just having the infantry which would make a mockery of the opponent's anti-tank weapons. Things like lascannons are mostly useless if the opposing army is all orks in t-shirts.

[Frowbakk]

The large amount of regular Boyz required in an Ork army is why I started playing an all Mega Armored Nobz force (Grots don't count).

Then, once I had that ready to go on the table, the Green Tide lists really came into contention. However, I just don't want to move that many models around and have a re-play of my experiences as an Ork player back in 3rd Edition of showing up for a game and spending the next two hours putting my models away.

The one force I truly enjoyed playing was the Speed Freek list from Codex: Armageddon because I had all my Troops slots filled with Skorcha Buggies so I never even had to roll dice to hit.

I'm hoping the new Ork Codex has more than One True Path to victory, because for me Horde Orks aren't what I'm willing to play on a regular basis.

[Dusldorf]

I would welcome the opportunity to kill that many orks, but I would hate to face a slow player. Kudos to Fluger for knowing how to play orks without wasting time.

[Ish]

I’ve always been fond of both WH40k’s Space Orks and WHFB’s Orcs, but never collected them simply because painting so damn many models was not something I wanted to attempt.

Which was why I was really taken with AoS’s Ironjawz army, which takes the standard orc aesthic and playstyle, but matches it to an “elite army” list. (The three rank and file troops work out to be approximately 16 Points, 28 Points, or 36 Points per man.) I’ve often wondered if an Ironjawz-like design philosophy could work for a Space Orks subfaction.

[Sgt. Rock]

I've only played one game of 8th yet (and I don't even have my models assembled enough to play another) so take this with a pound of salt, but after playing with Orks for many years prior to quitting 40k last time, I never got any grief for running green tides, nor have I ever given anyone any. As long as you're not in a tournament (which is the perspective I'm coming from, as a Filthy Casual) then the golden rule applies; don't be a douche. Be considerate of your opponent's time, use the aforementioned preparations, etc. Personally, I don't give a damn if you take a little longer on your turn as long as you can tell a good joke or two in the process. The game is about having fun, and that's not just about what's going down on the tabletop. Be considerate, be fun, and let the pieces fall where they may.

[Ish]

Filthy Casual 4 Lyfe

[Guest]

On 10/16/2018 at 12:40 PM, Frowbakk said:

The large amount of regular Boyz required in an Ork army is why I started playing an all Mega Armored Nobz force (Grots don't count).

Remember when we could take the Looted Land Raiders? I miss that. Mega nobz in a BS 2 land raider. I used to have that.

[Skkipper]

I will push 200+ boys out onto the field once the new codex drops.

 

[fluger]

On 10/16/2018 at 12:47 PM, Dusldorf said:

I would welcome the opportunity to kill that many orks, but I would hate to face a slow player. Kudos to Fluger for knowing how to play orks without wasting time.

Thanks! You and I mostly played each other in 5th when I had 50 less models and the game had fewer dice rolls. I suspect it is hard to run true hordes in a competitive environment due to time constraints. 

The new Dex has me building lists again.  Horde style Orks seems really viable if you have decent time frames.  8th seems faster than 7th, but at TSHFT in 2017 I only got to turn 4 once in 6 games.  And, in most cases, half the game continued I would've fared better, so it was slow play self sabotage...  

The big break is lack of templates means you dont have to be so fiddly.  

 

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, fluger said:

8th seems faster than 7th, but at TSHFT in 2017 I only got to turn 4 once in 6 games.

 

For the disorganized/new player, 8e has been the slowest edition yet. My stock chaos SM have 3 books to manage 1 detachment (A good chunk of our stuff is still Index only, and there are GW models are now FW index only, then the CSM codex), plus chapter approved and multiple FAQs. And the books are very unorganized in terms of layout, with the core rulebook being the worst, closely followed by the FW index (which doesn't even understand the concept of alphabetical weapon summaries). Easily 15 minutes of every game is wasted finding rules.

And removal of the USRs means we have to carefully read each unit entry because each one is slightly different. 

Furthermore, the limit on duplicate entries slows the game for players unfamiliar with their rules just because it forces the player to bring lots of different units with lots of different rules. Spamming units is so much easier for players learning the game (or just their army).

7e was slow if you had a high model count army, but i recall lots of low model count armies due to LoWs and Flyers being a very centerpiece feature of 7e.

Anyway, I mainly like the 8e changes. Just pointing out that it's not a faster game. The loss of templates did help speed up the game, as did the removal of falling back units, the vehicle rules, and so forth, but they added features to compensate for that extra time and now the game is just as slow.

 

[Ish]

Can I grumble now about how I think tourneys need to make an effort to move to lower point values... or have I beat that dead horse enough?

[VonVilkee]

58 minutes ago, Ish said:

Can I grumble now about how I think tourneys need to make an effort to move to lower point values... or have I beat that dead horse enough?

I saw the horse move!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

Can I grumble now about how I think tourneys need to make an effort to move to lower point values... or have I beat that dead horse enough?

I feel that the high point cost is required because divisity of list creation is too diverse and creates lopsided games more often at lower point levels. Not every army has this problem, but I think that's at the core of the issue. I think if you had "tighter" army creation rules, you could lower the point level without creating this problem. Perhaps having a few "required" unaligned units to ensure that every army had tools to complete the missions and survive against their opponent. 

The other issue is table size, which goes back the list diversity issues. Lower point games don't always function right on a full size table. Playing on a smaller table would be an easy sell to game stores, but i feel the game isn't as balanced on a 4x4 as it is on a 6x4 just due to weapon ranges and charge potential. I do think you could potentially avoid this issue by having tall, multi-leveled tables, but that's not really practical for the game store (and the current ruin rules really don't work for that).

[Ish]

I'm not saying we reduce it to the "Combat Patrol" or "40K in 40 Minutes" level, but I think you could have a rewarding game in less time at the 1500 Points level. That gives you enough room for most armies to still fill out most of a Detachment's force org chart, lets players take a nice mix of core concept units and one or two specialist units, and still fills out most of the table. 

[Dusldorf]

9 hours ago, fluger said:

Thanks! You and I mostly played each other in 5th when I had 50 less models and the game had fewer dice rolls. I suspect it is hard to run true hordes in a competitive environment due to time constraints. 

The new Dex has me building lists again.  Horde style Orks seems really viable if you have decent time frames.  8th seems faster than 7th, but at TSHFT in 2017 I only got to turn 4 once in 6 games.  And, in most cases, half the game continued I would've fared better, so it was slow play self sabotage...  

The big break is lack of templates means you dont have to be so fiddly.  

 

 

Don't worry, after I shoot my punisher cannon at you, you'll be back to your old list size in no time 🙂