WoW January 2019 40k League interest?

[Dark Trainer]

I've started preparing a 40k escalation league and wanted to gauge interest in a 40k escalation league. I was thinking about starting around Tuesday Jan 8 and trying to make it available to all. 

I'd love to hear any feedback, heartache, etc. This would be open to anyone and would ideally be played Tuesday nights, but pick-up games are allowed/encouraged!

[Ish]

I hit “yes” for the Newer Player option, despite having played since Rogue Trader, I’ve only gotten a handful of 8th Edition games under my belt and would find a “slow grow” league to be beneficial.

[Guest]

I was actually thinking about running one too (also at WOW). Lol, not going to happen if you run yours. I've just been really liking the Escalation format at my local Warhammer store. It's really simple and is really good for new players and for players looking to *gradually* have a fully painted army. Here's the format: 

It's a 8-week league with a kick off event at the start. The main thing is that any unit fielded in an official match for the league can't be changed. Practice games are exempt.

Kick off event features all league players in one game. It requires only a single HQ. Any HQ is allowed, but can't be more than 150pts. Special Characters are discouraged, but are allowed.

Week 1-2 adds a single troops unit of up to 200pts.

Week 3-4 adds a single monster or vehicle of up to 200pts

Week 5-6 adds any unit up to 200pts

Week 7-8 adds any unit up to 250pts.

Armies are considered battleforged, but don't use the detachment rules at all. Each army has a fixed 3 command points (unless one of your units has a special ability to add CP). Armies are not required to be of the same faction, though themematically appropriate armies are encouraged. Terrain rules are as per the BRB, unless you and your opponent agree otherwise.

Each week has 1 game, so 8 official games for the league. Could do them all in one day, if you want. 

Extra points for painting and so forth. League is free (plus ordo dues, if any), winner's prize is bragging rights. Goal of league is to get a fully painted army, eventually, and learn the game, while having fun of course. 

Table size is as agreed by the opponent, but anything from 2'x2' to 4'x4' is reasonable. Could go bigger if you decide to play of the missions with multiple players (like 3+ sides).

[Dark Trainer]

14 minutes ago, Ish said:

I hit “yes” for the Newer Player option, despite having played since Rogue Trader, I’ve only gotten a handful of 8th Edition games under my belt and would find a “slow grow” league to be beneficial.

I was thinking if people have the models, 750 start value would be ideal, and 1k by 2nd week. Else I could do 500, 750, 1k. It would be 250 until 2k basically with a likely pause in the middle around 1500 to let people get stuff painted if needed.

[Guest]

I'd be super happy if you wanted to run that (My earlier post) Dark Trainer.

[Dark Trainer]

19 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I'd be super happy if you wanted to run that (My earlier post) Dark Trainer.

I plan to run a more casual league. I won't be restricting players to units or models. An escalation league should offer freedom to experiment with unit combinations, entice someone to buy a model they have always wanted, change the lists weekly, etc. Also, I'd encourage it. Battleforged will be encouraged through extra points for the league, but only minor to allow freedom. Working on league rules still.

As for schedule, I've thought of a 500 or 750 start. Just depends on if any new players need to start small as they don't have much. 750 is honestly very quick and 500 is a little too quick, unless you don't have models yet. So I need to gauge how many truly new players we have (not new to rules). The schedule looks like 7 weeks (Jan 8th to Feb 26th) and would ideally be 750(doubles), 1k(doubles), 1250, 1500, 1500, 1750, 1750/2000. 

That said, this is about fun friendly games. I believe it will be free, but might be $5+game night fees or something. Trying to determine prizes budget, awards, etc. Prizes for league or tournament will be raffled off. However based on how well you play or certain achievements, you'll earn extra tickets for raffles. This means even someone who loses every match can earn something! The thought was if you played enough games in league you earn free entry into the ITC style tournament on March 2nd. There will be prize support for the tournament, also considering for league. 

This is still very liquid in design, and hoping to firm up details soon. Just wanted a feel for the interest first.

[zcaust83]

7 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I was actually thinking about running one too (also at WOW). Lol, not going to happen if you run yours. I've just been really liking the Escalation format at my local Warhammer store. It's really simple and is really good for new players and for players looking to *gradually* have a fully painted army. Here's the format: 

It's a 8-week league with a kick off event at the start. The main thing is that any unit fielded in an official match for the league can't be changed. Practice games are exempt.

Kick off event features all league players in one game. It requires only a single HQ. Any HQ is allowed, but can't be more than 150pts. Special Characters are discouraged, but are allowed.

Week 1-2 adds a single troops unit of up to 200pts.

Week 3-4 adds a single monster or vehicle of up to 200pts

Week 5-6 adds any unit up to 200pts

Week 7-8 adds any unit up to 250pts.

Armies are considered battleforged, but don't use the detachment rules at all. Each army has a fixed 3 command points (unless one of your units has a special ability to add CP). Armies are not required to be of the same faction, though themematically appropriate armies are encouraged. Terrain rules are as per the BRB, unless you and your opponent agree otherwise.

Each week has 1 game, so 8 official games for the league. Could do them all in one day, if you want. 

Extra points for painting and so forth. League is free (plus ordo dues, if any), winner's prize is bragging rights. Goal of league is to get a fully painted army, eventually, and learn the game, while having fun of course. 

Table size is as agreed by the opponent, but anything from 2'x2' to 4'x4' is reasonable. Could go bigger if you decide to play of the missions with multiple players (like 3+ sides).

I like this format a lot. I may set up our escalation league that way

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, zcaust83 said:

I like this format a lot. I may set up our escalation league that way

Yeah, I didn't like it at first, it really grows on you. It's great for escalation, casual players, and new people to the hobby. Ian of the tanasborne/hillsboro warhammer store came up with it. And he's super casual about it, so, for example, if a player doesn't have any HQs, but has an elites character that otherwise fits, he might allow it. And it's great for people buying Getting Started Sets, as those usually only have a single troops unit in them.

At first, it looks like any other, but then you try to make a broken list and realize it's really hard. Most broken HQs cost more than 150pts, though you can still take a monster/vehicle HQ as the week 3-4 selection (and another at 5-6 and another still at 7-8, if you really wanted). And with only 2 units to keep track of for week 1-2, games are swift. And by requiring the same unit selections, early combat monsters might not be the most practical units later on.

And it avoids most of the problematic units (at low point levels) by having a point cap per unit. Like the initial HQ can't be a winged daemon prince due to the 150pt cap. But if you want a winged prince, you can still take one as your week 3-4 Monster/vehicle, or any of the later ones. And it indirectly bans most titanic units, which don't really balance well at this point level anyway. 

It doesn't strictly use points for the overall army, so if your army is really cheap in points, while you may be hindered in terms of offensive/defensive potential, you can still field a legal army without having to spend lots more money or paint lots more models than the other players. This means the Buy in requirement to play is pretty even across all armies, which is really nice. 

[Ish]

Seems like a very nice pace... Maybe add a rule that anyone adding a new unit that is fully painted* gets +1 CP for that match or something. 

 

* We’ll use the honor system that it is, indeed, “new” and hasn’t been sitting fully painted in their basement since the Bush Administration.

[Guest]

And it avoids 

4 minutes ago, Ish said:

Seems like a very nice pace... Maybe add a rule that anyone adding a new unit that is fully painted* gets +1 CP for that match or something. 

 

* We’ll use the honor system that it is, indeed, “new” and hasn’t been sitting fully painted in their basement since the Bush Administration.

Dunno about Dark Trainer's, but the Warhammer store one grants a +1 to your total score for each newly painted unit. But they have an effective cap on units, so this is pretty easy to implement. They define newly painted as painted for this particular league, though the models do not have to be new (he said we could strip the same models and repaint them every time if we really wanted to). 

[Dark Trainer]

The problem with adding a unit for week 1, is you end up with significant variation of units and it only benefits a true 'newbie style' escalation league. A guard unit is a joke compared to a space marine squad, etc. I can see your design being better for true escalation league of people getting started, but I assume most folks here have minis already and likely only need minor tweaks, or maybe painting the assembled guys, etc. Maybe I'm wrong here, but my goal is to allow everyone to play the league, rather than just new only. Moving up by points levels is usually easier for all. 500 point games are like 30 minutes tops, 750 is about 45 minutes, etc.

That said, not against slowing it down. I could slow down the points increases if no one wants to end at 1750 or 2k, we can scale to end at 1500, or whatever. That should be manageable for anyone.

As for bonus points for painting, it would be minimal to not affect the outcome of the game, but additional league point for a new mini, 2 or 3 for a full squad kind of thing. This is meant to help get someone motivated painting, but not all are going to finish painting by the end of the league and there shouldn't be punishment for it. However if we run the tournament at the end it will be fully painted, WYSIWYG.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Dark Trainer said:

The problem with adding a unit for week 1, is you end up with significant variation of units and it only benefits a true 'newbie style' escalation league. A guard unit is a joke compared to a space marine squad, etc. I can see your design being better for true escalation league of people getting started, but I assume most folks here have minis already and likely only need minor tweaks, or maybe painting the assembled guys, etc. Maybe I'm wrong here, but my goal is to allow everyone to play the league, rather than just new only. Moving up by points levels is usually easier for all. 500 point games are like 30 minutes tops, 750 is about 45 minutes, etc.

That said, not against slowing it down. I could slow down the points increases if no one wants to end at 1750 or 2k, we can scale to end at 1500, or whatever. That should be manageable for anyone.

As for bonus points for painting, it would be minimal to not affect the outcome of the game, but additional league point for a new mini, 2 or 3 for a full squad kind of thing. This is meant to help get someone motivated painting, but not all are going to finish painting by the end of the league and there shouldn't be punishment for it. However if we run the tournament at the end it will be fully painted, WYSIWYG.

That's what I said, originally. But try it. Actually play the games instead of theory hammering it, it's surprisingly balanced. I do think it favors loyalist SM, but beyond that, I've not found much brokeness. Deathwatch in particular, seems to be the most optimizable for this league.

And as before, you aren't required to stick to a given faction. If you think you can't win with your AM troops, take some space marines for your troops. The only requirement is that whatever you pick, you have to stick with once you've fielded it in a league match. Ideally you won't mix chaos with imperials, but there's no league rule against it. You can mix and match, as the detactment rules are not used (though they count as each being in a detachment for traits and stratagem access).

I will note that there are times where even the SM player won't max out their spent points. Sometimes a rhino is more useful than a predator, and in this league, they'd both fill the same week 3-4 slot. 

But maybe it's just players. The bottom line is that the only prize is bragging rights, so winning and losing really doesn't matter. Ending the league with 5 fully painted units is the main win here. It's casual, it's fun, it's silly. What are you looking for in a weekly league? That's all I'm looking for.

And because of this wonky format, I've really been trying out new units that'd never have run in any other format.

[Guest]

@Dark TrainerAnyway, regarding your league that just scales list point cost. That can be fun too. I would caution allowing certain types of units in at that point level, as games often become lopsided. You know, like I could bring a single imperial knight for about 500pts....but it's not really a fair unit to bring at the 500pt mark, even if the model is fairly priced at 500pts. 

That said, I'd be down for a knight-only escalation league if you wanted...

I will mention, regarding the below quote, that you have a somewhat unrealistic grasp of the time to play games. That would a tournament level game, where players played with timers if you wanted a 500pt game to take 30 minutes. Should take 1-2 hours per game for normal people to play a 500pt game, especially if they are using new units or new rules. 

52 minutes ago, Dark Trainer said:

Moving up by points levels is usually easier for all. 500 point games are like 30 minutes tops, 750 is about 45 minutes, etc.

 

[Dark Trainer]

6 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I will mention, regarding the below quote, that you have a somewhat unrealistic grasp of the time to play games. That would a tournament level game, where players played with timers if you wanted a 500pt game to take 30 minutes. Should take 1-2 hours per game for normal people to play a 500pt game, especially if they are using new units or new rules. 

 

A person who has played a previous version (never played 8th) of 40k would have no problem finishing a 500pt quickly. Sure new players will struggle more, but that's the point of the league. If it ever takes someone 2 hours to play 500pts, then no one knew what they were doing and the pairing was incorrectly setup. As organizer I would pair newer players with someone who would teach the rules and assist more if requested.

[Guest]

Just now, Dark Trainer said:

A person who has played a previous version (never played 8th) of 40k would have no problem finishing a 500pt quickly. Sure new players will struggle more, but that's the point of the league. If it ever takes someone 2 hours to play 500pts, then no one knew what they were doing and the pairing was incorrectly setup. As organizer I would pair newer players with someone who would teach the rules and assist more.

Which armies do you play? Some armies are certainly quicker than others. 30 minutes seems like an insanely quick game of 40k. Are you getting through all 5-6 rounds? Or does one of the players get wiped turn 2?

Honestly, I think I'd play faster if I could forget the previous edition's rules....

[Ish]

I generally assume one hour per 1,000 Points. Give or take.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ish said:

I generally assume one hour per 1,000 Points. Give or take.

Does it usually work out? Which army do you play? And does this assume a full turn for each player to end of the mission's 5-7 rounds?

Oh, are you including deployment, trait/power selection and such towards this hour?

I dunno, 40k at 2k is a 2-4 hour game between even matched armies. I would include deployment in that. Though I acknowledge that low model count armies will certainly play faster, as will armies that skip phases (like armies that never move, armies without psykers, or armies without shooting). Also if you wipe (or are wiped) the game can end prematurely, so the game would technically be faster there, though if you are quickly wiping your opponent, or are being wiped quickly, I'd argue that this doesn't apply as you are not evenly matched. 

[Ish]

This is a very rough “rule of thumb” that I’ve arrived at  after playing the game for decades. It also assumes both parties playing are thoroughly familiar with the rules, playing at a brisk (not rushed, but not dawdling) pace, and that conversational banter and outside distractions are minimal.

Basically, “serious business” gameplay like you might see at a tournament or in a competitive league. 

Personally, I like a more relaxed pace with a bit of a “beer and pretzels” casualness to it... But even then, three hours is usually enough to get a 2,000 Point game over and done with. 

As I’ve said elsewhere, I haven’t played more than a handful of 8th Edition games. I may need to adjust my “rule of thumb” and reserve the right to do so. 😁

[Sgt. Rock]

This sounds like fun. I could use a way to ease myself back into the game, and take a little time getting my dudemanz painted. Like Ish, I really prefer the "beer and pretzels" type of 40k. I think I would probably be in, tentatively.

[Dark Trainer]

6 hours ago, Sgt. Rock said:

This sounds like fun. I could use a way to ease myself back into the game, and take a little time getting my dudemanz painted. Like Ish, I really prefer the "beer and pretzels" type of 40k. I think I would probably be in, tentatively.

Yeah, this is the goal here. I wasn't meaning you had to rush a game. Play and enjoy it is the idea, get some models completed, etc.

 

Definitely looking like there's decent interest. I'll get started on the design...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Dark Trainer said:

Definitely looking like there's decent interest. I'll get started on the design...

Yeah, my tuesday night is free. I'll remember about WOW on tuesday at noon-ish, but I don't arrange a game in advance, and WOW is pretty bad for pick-up games, or at least it was in the past, so I don't go.

[Dark Trainer]

2 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Yeah, my tuesday night is free. I'll remember about WOW on tuesday at noon-ish, but I don't arrange a game in advance, and WOW is pretty bad for pick-up games, or at least it was in the past, so I don't go.

As organizer, I usually end up being that guy who waits to see if someone didn't get a game, then i'll fill in a spot. The idea is to prevent gamers going without. 

However, it's always advised to post in the game night thread that you want a game, people will reply.

[Guest]

Just now, Dark Trainer said:

As organizer, I usually end up being that guy who waits to see if someone didn't get a game, then i'll fill in a spot. The idea is to prevent gamers going without. 

During the league, yes. But I was talking about why I haven't been at WOW lately.

[Dark Trainer]

13 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

During the league, yes. But I was talking about why I haven't been at WOW lately.

Should try posting in the game night threads to see if you get any interest. Usually don't have issues getting a game arranged posting there.

 

 

[Ish]

That’s the nice thing about leagues, you pretty much know that there will be a game happening on a given night.