Guest Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 Haven't started anything yet. Still trying to figure out if they are viable in battlescribe. Regarding conversions, base size is the only real concern. The original crisis suits were 40mm, which I think these are too. Crisis Suits now come with 50mm bases. I feel that the 50mm base is probably the more appropriate. The FW commander suit variants each have 2 slots only (4 slots in the codex versions). The FW versions have +1 wound and no Iridum armor option. The XV81 also has has a SMS system (which notably is a heavy weapon, the only such heavy weapon that crisis suits can field). The XV84 also has a Target Lock and a quasi markerlight (if I hit with other weapons, puts a marker on the target, max of 1 marker placed like this per shooting phase, but it isn't a markerlight of it's own, so isn't able to shoot without other weapons and doesn't qualify for the uplinked markerlight stratagem). Having only 2 slots really limits these. For example, if my Farsight Enclaves suit takes the Fusion blades relic, it needs to have both slots occuppied with Fusion Blasters for that relic, which in turn means I can't take a Shield Generator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 Regarding the actual models: FW xv81 And the XV84 And for the record, I love the models and would order them, but FW doesn't sell them anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, paxmiles said: Regarding the actual models: FW xv81 And the XV84 And for the record, I love the models and would order them, but FW doesn't sell them anymore... If you can get them looking good and call them prototype versions... Go ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 Those look like every other Tau Crisis Suit to me... I guess the weapons look a little different and they have unique “backpacks.” We’re not exactly talking about substituting an M1 Abrams for a Renault FT... More like substituting a Sherman M4A3E2 for an M4A2E8. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Ish said: Those look like every other Tau Crisis Suit to me... I guess the weapons look a little different and they have unique “backpacks.” We’re not exactly talking about substituting an M1 Abrams for a Renault FT... More like substituting a Sherman M4A3E2 for an M4A2E8. The actual kits differ more in an internal capacity. I used to own one of the xv84 suits. The legs in particular, are fully pose-able. I built mine to be balancing in a yoga Crane stance. I think I got rid of it, as I haven't been able to locate it (I did find one of the arms). The old plastic crisis suits were really limited in pose options. The new ones are better, but still rather limited. Despite the larger base size, the two plastic versions of the suits don't differ in size or scale of any portion, the bigger base just accounts for a more impressive stance. The broadsides, however, did get a substantial change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Pretty sure only tournament (NOVA) actually cares that you have the actual fw model and not a conversion. I would think no player in a casual game would care either if you put any effort into the conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Well, been tinkering with builds, but the bottom line is that with only 2 suit slots, they are really limited and it results in a rather substancial loss in either fire power, durability, or utility. Mainly 2 builds strike me as optimized. "Hidden" Commander xv81 (SMS, Drone Controller, Early Warning Override) 101pts Very limited Damage output, but I can place this model outside of LoS, like in a ruin behind a wall, and still provide solid support for the army. This can be combined with the Puretide Engram Neurochip and/or the Command-and-Control Node Stratagem. "Marker" Commander xv84 (Shield Generator+Airbursting Fragmentation Launcher) 102pts Any weapons will work here. Probably missile pods for long range, but could also worth it with Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors to not need LoS on the drop, or Fusion Blasters to maximize damage on the drop. Since the damage output is so low on this one, could drop to 1 weapon and a Shield Generator. Only needs to hit once, and a marker is placed, and more impressively, since hits with the other weapons is all that is required, doesn't need LoS to place markers if the weapon doesn't need LoS. I feel that this particular commander could really rock the Supernova Launcher relic, since it's otherwise a rather mismatched weapon on a suit with multiple weapons and this capitalizes off the lack of LoS requirement for marking. ...And that's really it. I'm thinking that my Dal'yth will take one of the two (probably the latter), and my Farsight Enclaves is going ditch either because the loss of offensive hinders them too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Fiddling with anti-knight mathhammer program for Crisis Suit squads. Math assumes unit is deep striking via the Drop Zone Clear Stratagem, Command-and-Control None Stratagem, and the target has 5x markers on it (So unit is BS 2+, re-rolling 1s to hit, re-rolling all failed wounds, and is just over 9" from their target). Target has T8, 25 wounds, 3+/5++ 15 Fusion Blasters 24 Missile Pods 18 Missile Pods with ATS 35 Plasma Rifles 35 Burst Cannons 24 Burst Cannons with ATS 73 Airbursting Fragmentation Launchers 49 Airbursting Fragmentation Launchers with ATS 12 Overcharging Cyclic Ion Blasters 9 Overcharging Cyclic Ion Blasters with ATS I'm counting by whole number of weapons, not shots. So burst cannons needing 35 burst cannons means 140 burst cannon shots (or a maybe a bit less if I round to the nearest whole weapon). If I were able to get within 9", the number of Fusion Blasters required drops to 12, but that doesn't work with my stratagems. And Flamers aren't on the list because they can't shoot unless they get to the 9" mark. But sure, just for the data: 71 Flamers 47 Flamers with ATS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelharis Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Dont forget, stealth suits with homing beacon, or pathfinder recon drone with the positional relay stratagem can both allow you to manta strike within 9" range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, paxmiles said: Math assumes unit is deep striking via the Drop Zone Clear Stratagem, Command-and-Control None Stratagem, and the target has 5x markers on it (So unit is BS 2+, re-rolling 1s to hit, re-rolling all failed wounds, and is just over 9" from their target). “Smellin’ a lot of ‘If’ comin’ off this plan...” –Jayne Cobb 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Kelharis said: Dont forget, stealth suits with homing beacon, or pathfinder recon drone with the positional relay stratagem can both allow you to manta strike within 9" range. It ceases to be a manta strike when you use the recon drone stratagem or the homing beacon. Read it closely, it becomes a "low altitude drop" instead of a "manta strike." So no dice combining the Drop Zone Clear stratagem with either of those to land closer. 2 hours ago, Ish said: “Smellin’ a lot of ‘If’ comin’ off this plan...” –Jayne Cobb It's very easy to line these up for a given turn. It just can't be maintained for more than 1 turn. Additionally, it's incredibly expensive in points. You'd need 2x units, plus markers (which could be marker drones accompanying either unit). One of Crisis suits and 1 Commander (both FARSIGHT ENCLAVES Sept). Both manta strike deploy (turn 2+) within 6" of eachother. The commander gives up their shooting to use the Command and Control Stratagem to affect any one "BATTLESUIT unit" within 6". You also use the Farsight Enclaves stratagem, "Drop Zone Clear," on that same Battlesuit unit. And then you'd need a unit, any unit or combination of units, to put the 5x markers on a given target. Markers are not faction specific, so multiple septs could place markers, if needed. Your unit of 3-9 Crisis suits is now BS 2+, re-rolling 1s, Ignoring Cover, and Re-rolling wounds. 3 CP to execute. 4 CP If my markerlight situation warrants using the Uplinked Markerlight Stratagem to meet my required 5x markers. 3 hours ago, paxmiles said: 15 Fusion Blasters 24 Missile Pods 18 Missile Pods with ATS 35 Plasma Rifles 35 Burst Cannons 24 Burst Cannons with ATS 73 Airbursting Fragmentation Launchers 49 Airbursting Fragmentation Launchers with ATS 12 Overcharging Cyclic Ion Blasters 9 Overcharging Cyclic Ion Blasters with ATS As an aside, 9x Crisis Suits means a max of 27 weapon slots (18 with ATS). So if the goal is to slay a single knight with 9x Crisis Suits in a single shooting phase, not all of these weapons are functional due to requiring more slots than you have. So the Fusion Blaster route, in example: + Elites + XV8 Crisis Battlesuits [24 PL, 405pts] . Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Fusion blaster . Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Fusion blaster . Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Fusion blaster . Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Fusion blaster . Crisis Shas'vre: 3x Fusion blaster And the 15 fusion Blasters doesn't take into account the Knight Stratagems, or a Knight Character warlord with Tenacious Survivor, Knight Relics, or just if the Knight is a Dominus frame/chasis and therefore has more wounds than a regular knight. So in order to counter a knight, I''ve got a 15 wound, 3+ save unit that's 405pts and can't be on the table turn 1. Furthermore, I have to back it up with a commander that is unable to shoot (another 100 points). And then my marker support has to either arrive with them (10pts per marker drone), or still be on the table when they arrive... It's a hard hitting TAU glass hammer. But make no mistake, it's a 1 shot weapon. PS: Cyclic Ion Blaster unit would be: + Elites + XV8 Crisis Battlesuits [24 PL, 327pts] . Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster . Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster . Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster . Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster . Crisis Shas'vre: Advanced targeting system, Cyclic ion blaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 The other end is that this requires a FARSIGHT ENCLAVES specific Stratagem, so can't be combined with the more common T'AU SEPT stratagem that adds +1 to wound rolls (Focused Fire). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Kelharis said: Dont forget, stealth suits with homing beacon, or pathfinder recon drone with the positional relay stratagem can both allow you to manta strike within 9" range. I know I said this won't work with the Drop Zone Clear Stratagem, but that stratagem only modifies rolls to hit. So if going the Flamer route, where you auto hit anyway, the whole thing becomes much less demanding and doesn't really need marker support (ignoring cover, but that's all the benefit offered by the markers). Still needs 1 unit of Crisis Suits and 1 Commander, both of the same faction, but they no longer need to be FARSIGHT ENCLAVES. And it still needs more flamers than you can mount on a 9-suit unit to destroy a Knight, but flamers aren't really for anti-knight combat anyway. Definitely a good suggestion for other targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 So, as long as I'm considering a highly disposable unit that requires about 600pts to execute (~400 for the Crisis team, ~100 for the markers, and ~100 for a commander), I really should give those FW flyers a second glance. With 4x marker hits on target, but otherwise no assistance and not including SEPT abilities: + Flyer + Tiger Shark AX-1-0 [30 PL, 611pts]: 2x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x Heavy rail cannon, 2x Missile pod, 6x Seeker missile 2x Heavy Rail Cannons should deal 15.124 damage to a Knight (Macro Weapon, includes doubling damage). 2x *overcharging* Cyclic Ion Blasters deal 2.97 damage 2x Missile Pods deal 1.296 damage 6x Seeker Missiles deal 6.806 damage Total: 26.196 Damage, which is a Dead Knight, though only just. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 Same thing, different flyer: + Flyer + Tiger Shark Fighter-bomber [21 PL, 411pts]: 2x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x Ion cannon, 2x Skyspear missile rack, 2x Missile pod, 6x Seeker missile 2x *overcharging* Ion Cannons deal 6.806 2x Skyspear Missile Racks 3.025 2x *overcharging* Cyclic Ion Blasters deal 2.97 damage 2x Missile Pods deal 1.296 damage 6x Seeker Missiles deal 6.806 damage Total: 20.903 damage, which means it would fail to kill a knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 With 5x Markers this time, but otherwise same thing, different flyer: + Flyer + AX-5-2 Barracuda [12 PL, 281pts]: 2x Cyclic ion blaster, Ion cannon, 2x Missile pod, 4x Seeker missile 1x *overcharging* Ion Cannons deals 3.403 2x *overcharging* Cyclic Ion Blasters deal 2.97 damage 2x Missile Pods deal 1.296 damage 4x Seeker Missiles deal 4.537 Total: 12.206 damage to a knight, so roughly half a slain knight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 Is this all through a 3+ invulnerable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 1 hour ago, SPaceORK said: Is this all through a 3+ invulnerable? 3+ armor, 5++ invulnerable. As mentioned, it doesn't account for relics, stratagems, terrain, and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 A Barracuda (or two) flying escort for a Tiger Shark seems like a good "Anti-Knight" unit that will also be able to serve you well in dealing with Ork hordes and Marine/Guard mechanized lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 4 hours ago, paxmiles said: 3+ armor, 5++ invulnerable. As mentioned, it doesn't account for relics, stratagems, terrain, and so forth. Well most single knights will be at a 3++ or at least 4++. And if you dont kill them outright they can still operate at full wounds if need be via a strat or, if hawkshroud, double the wounds they have left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 36 minutes ago, SPaceORK said: Well most single knights will be at a 3++ or at least 4++. And if you dont kill them outright they can still operate at full wounds if need be via a strat or, if hawkshroud, double the wounds they have left. Why do they have a 3++ or 4++? Not being able to ignore invulnerable saves is really annoying. I'll double check. You'd think Macro weapons for titan slaying would ingnore invulnerable saves... Regarding killing them outright, yes, that would be the plan. I suppose our glass cannons could charge after the drop if we get really close to killing it. The Drop Zone Clear Stratagem does apply in assault as well, so they hit on 4s in melee (which is actually impressive for TAU...) 4 hours ago, Ish said: A Barracuda (or two) flying escort for a Tiger Shark seems like a good "Anti-Knight" unit that will also be able to serve you well in dealing with Ork hordes and Marine/Guard mechanized lists. The problem, I think I've mentioned it before, with the TAU flyers is that in occupying a flyer battlefield role they count as decreased when determining if I'm wiped or not. So if I take too many flyers, I greatly increase my chances of getting wiped. 2x Barracudas and 1x of those Tiger Shark ax-1-0 is about 1200pts, none of which counts as being alive...so in a 2k game, my opponent could focus fire my 800pts of non-flyers and I lose. So 1 or 2 flyers max, probably just one of the spendy flyers. The secondary challenge is that in this edition, flyers start on the table, yet remain not very durable (for cost). They aren't terrible, just not as durable as 600pts suggests. And fielding an escort unit doesn't actually prevent the opponent from shooting the main flyer. The tertiary challenge, and this is less an issue, is that the flyer detachment is only worth 1 CP for 3-5 flyers (which is a huge joke for 600pt flyers). I can field another detachment and attach 0-2 flyers, but it limits other options. So 0-2 flyers is about the max to field. So 1 big flyer, I could justify if it were reliable anti-titan. 2x flyers is dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 17 minutes ago, paxmiles said: Why do they have a 3++ or 4++? Because on a single knight you take the relic that gives them a 4++, with rotate in shields its 3++. If your taking a 600+ point knight you definitely want to keep it alive. You can also give two knights a 4++ and a third, 2+. But yea, assuming a knight will only have 3+/5++ is pretty optimistic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 17 minutes ago, SPaceORK said: Because on a single knight you take the relic that gives them a 4++, with rotate in shields its 3++. If your taking a 600+ point knight you definitely want to keep it alive. You can also give two knights a 4++ and a third, 2+. But yea, assuming a knight will only have 3+/5++ is pretty optimistic. Well, that explains why the internet keeps suggesting I rely on AP dash weapons for my TAU to destroy knights. Also means that knights are likely stronger warhounds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPaceORK Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 20 minutes ago, paxmiles said: Well, that explains why the internet keeps suggesting I rely on AP dash weapons for my TAU to destroy knights. Also means that knights are likely stronger warhounds... The internet is right from time to time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 Not for TAU exactly, but I'm fiddling with Daemon units for another of my armies, and decided to apply the same math hammer to a Great Unclean One. As before, assumes BS2+ with re-rolls of 1, re-rolls wounds, and is just over 9" away. The Great Unclean One is T7, with 18 wounds, a 6+ Armor save, a 5++ invulnerable save, and a 5+++ ignores damage ability. 14 Fusion Blasters 13 Missile Pods 38 Plasma Rifles 18 Burst Cannons 22 Airbursting Fragmentation Launchers 19 Cyclic Ion Blasters 8 Overcharging Cyclic Ion Blasters Again, count is by whole number of weapons, not shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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