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paxmiles

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36 minutes ago, Kelharis said:

I still am amazed that ITC uses PL for any of their objectives. Point cost is the way to balance the game competitively, so why would you use power level in any competitive setting? 

It doesn't really matter, basically the ITC thing is PL 7+, which basically is saying anything but "weak units" but if they describe it like that, we run into differences of what is weak.

I do wish GW would update power levels when they update points. They kinda do this when they release new unit sheets or replace the index/codex.

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3 hours ago, Kelharis said:

I still am amazed that ITC uses PL for any of their objectives. Point cost is the way to balance the game competitively, so why would you use power level in any competitive setting? 

Probably because GW uses it in their official Matched Play Rules (Reserves), and even in Stratagems in several Codices.

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5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I do wish GW would update power levels when they update points. They kinda do this when they release new unit sheets or replace the index/codex.

Really no need. Power level is for people who dont really care if the game is fair. If it's close enough that's good enough for power level.

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9 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Been thinking about the Piranhas more. Every game, so far, that I fielded them, they get focus fired turn 1. There's lots of reasons to focus on them: they have the most speed, they are probably the easiest kill, their weapons are better the closer they get (fusion blasters), and the drones don't disembark if they get destroyed (though they don't award extra kills since they are considered weapons of the vehicle rather than embarked passengers). 

Because they are such a great turn 1 target, they draw fire away from the rest of the army. In this respect, they are a great unit. I think they draw more fire than they are worth, and they sometimes survive it.

Considering giving them seeker missiles too. Would make them an even more desireable target and give me a little more flexibility in deployment. Plus if they survive, they could really hammer a single target.

Thoughts?

Seekers are mandatory anyways.  Knigh5s make 5 points look positively delectable.

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Thinking about pushing to this:


++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) [60 PL, 3CP, 1011pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [3CP]

T'au Empire Sept Choice: T'au Sept

+ Lord of War +

KV128 Stormsurge [20 PL, 337pts]: 2x Flamer, Cluster rocket system, 4x Destroyer missile, Pulse driver cannon, 2x Smart missile system

KV128 Stormsurge [20 PL, 337pts]: 2x Flamer, Cluster rocket system, 4x Destroyer missile, Pulse driver cannon, 2x Smart missile system

KV128 Stormsurge [20 PL, 337pts]: 2x Flamer, Cluster rocket system, 4x Destroyer missile, Pulse driver cannon, 2x Smart missile system

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (T'au Empire) [26 PL, 7CP, 435pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Emergency Dispensation (1 Relic) [-1CP]

T'au Empire Sept Choice: Dal'yth Sept

+ HQ +

Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit [8 PL, 139pts]: Early warning override, 2x Fusion blaster, Onager gauntlet, Shield generator

Ethereal [2 PL, 46pts]: Equalizers, Warlord

+ Troops +

Strike Team [2 PL, 38pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team [2 PL, 38pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team [2 PL, 38pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

+ Fast Attack +

Pathfinder Team [4 PL, 48pts]: MV33 Grav-inhibitor Drone
. 4x Pathfinder: 4x Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight

Pathfinder Team [4 PL, 48pts]: MV31 Pulse Accelerator Drone
. 4x Pathfinder: 4x Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight

Tactical Drones [2 PL, 40pts]: 3x MV4 Shield Drone, MV7 Marker Drone

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (T'au Empire) [30 PL, 5CP, 553pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [5CP]

T'au Empire Sept Choice: Farsight Enclaves

+ HQ +

Cadre Fireblade [2 PL, 42pts]: Markerlight

Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit [8 PL, 139pts]: Early warning override, Fusion blades (replaces 2 fusion blasters), 2x Fusion blaster, Shield generator

+ Troops +

Breacher Team [2 PL, 35pts]
. 4x Fire Warrior
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse blaster

Breacher Team [2 PL, 35pts]
. 4x Fire Warrior
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse blaster

Strike Team [2 PL, 38pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

+ Fast Attack +

TX4 Piranhas [4 PL, 78pts]
. TX4 Piranha: 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Fusion blaster, 2x Seeker missile

TX4 Piranhas [4 PL, 78pts]
. TX4 Piranha: 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Fusion blaster, 2x Seeker missile

+ Dedicated Transport +

TY7 Devilfish [6 PL, 108pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Burst cannon

++ Total: [116 PL, 15CP, 1999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

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Got a game in with the 1k escalation list against a chopped down ITC list of bork'an tau at GG today.

My list got butchered. Would have gotten wiped eventually, but we called it mid turn 3.

Was a good learning game. Nice to face TAU.

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11 hours ago, andy said:

Just curious, what were your key take-aways from the game vs T'au?

Oh, sorry. Didn't really elaborate. I was really tired when I posted that. 

Opponent was Bork'an Sept TAU. Puretide+command and control commander, 2 SMS+HYMP+ATS broadsides, 1 ATS+Burstcannon Riptide. 3 Sniper Drones. Marksman. Fireblade. And a handful of Pulse Rifle Strike Squads.

I put my Crisis Suits and Commander in reserve. Strike squad and fireblade in ruins with vantage point. Devilfish+Breachers and Piranhas in ruins positioned to advance. Stormsurge in the Open. 

He went first, decimated the Stormsurge with AP-2 ignores cover weapons. I was not running a shield generator, so was saving on 5s. I've been thinking about if the generator is worth it on the storm surge. I don't think it is. Opponent easily slayed it with overkill between the HYMP missiles and Riptide Burst Cannon. Having a slight better save would not have helped.

Regarding the Riptide, opponent was using the stratagem at the start of the turn to do duplicate Riptide overcharges (max shooting and 3++) then the stratagem to heal, thus eliminating the damage to itself. That was interesting. 

Strike Squad was destroyed by SMS. -1 AP and ignores cover at 36" is brutal.

Opponent was also using sniper drones, which is first I've seen them in action. Didn't really do much, but the threat that those 3 little drones posed was quite impressive. Definitely need to buy/convert some of those.

It is notable that despite definitely crippling my army turn 1, opponent really only killed less than half of points on turn 1. So despite being soundly defeated turn 1, this isn't the defeat that people are complaining about when they describe losing turn 1 in 8e. I do think that if I had a better army, the loss of the Stormsurge should not have prevented victory. 

My turn 1. Definitely consider surrender here. Drones detached from the Piranhas, 2 moving to harrass/distract the riptide and 2 moving to protect the Fireblade. Piranhas and devilfish pushed forward. I managed to position a Piranha so it's closest target was the marksman, and slew it a fusion blaster. Then other did nothing. SMS proved a very iffy weapon choice for Devilfish being used as a transport. Fireblade killed an opposing fire warrior. Lame turn, spent waiting on reserves.

Speaking of reserves. TAU have far too many stratagems that require a Battlesuit Commander to be on the table. Been thinking about it. Even if the plan is to "deepstrike," I need my commander on the table turn 1. To that end, I need a Coldstar Suit that is stationary turn 1 for stratagem purposes, then moves/advances turn 2, as opposed to actually deep striking. Or I need to not plan to move the commander any closer.

Opponent's turn 2. Once again, Piranhas weather a ridiculous ammount of firepower, but did eventually died. Devilfish survived with 2 wounds left. Riptide harrassing drones died, but they did draw fire. Fireblade survived.

My turn 2. Suits arrived in the gap created by the dead Marksmen and positioned themselves to charge the sniper drones (and that was really my best target). Fusion Blasters on the commander actually slew a Broadside after a shield drone failed to protect the broadside and I rolled a 6 for damage. Opponent was very disappointed in their shield drone. Other suit unit arrive nearby, but couldn't secure a charge route and didn't have the right weapons to contribute, really need to rework my Crisis Suit squad. My Commander did make the charge and killed a single sniper drone... 

Breachers disembarked the devilfish. One squad advanced, the other moving normally. Between the two, they reduced a Strike Squad from 6 to 1, then the non-advancing squad charged in. I of course, told my opponent to use the photon grenades for overwatch, which apparently he never uses. That really made the difference, as the 1 firewarrior survived the combat against 5 other Breachers.

Oh, devilfish with 2 wounds left has BS 6+. Noteworthy that moving and firing the SMS means moving and firing at BS7+ due to SMS being a heavy weapon. Once again, SMS proved iffy on this transport. 

Opponent turn 3. No surprise here, sniper drones fell back and his army easily killed the commander. Called it here. 

So my take-aways, aside from the above. I need more concentrated fire. If stormsurge is a sacrifical piece, which it certainly was in this game, I need the rest of the army to be able opperate without it. Definitely need a battlesuit commander on the table turn 1, if only for the ion strike (which would have really helped in this game due to my opponent's densely packed deployment). 

Another thought is that the breachers don't really benefit from their transport. Or rather, the combined cost of the 3 units wasn't worth their ingame value. 

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On 2/2/2019 at 7:14 PM, WestRider said:

Probably because GW uses it in their official Matched Play Rules (Reserves), and even in Stratagems in several Codices.

They're in the Maelstorm objectives deck for DA too. #16 "Path of Redemption" 

Quote

Score 1 Victory point if, during your turn, a friendly DARK ANGELS unit charged an enemy unit with a higher Power Rating than it's own.

 

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5 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Stupid editor.

What I was trying to post is that the shield gen is mandatory on a Surge.  Too many d6 weapons in this KNIGHT heavy meta not to.

 

It's +40pts and it doesn't make the Dal'yth Stormsurge substantially more durable.

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17 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

It's +40pts and it doesn't make the Dal'yth Stormsurge substantially more durable.

Well I respectfully disagree.  How can it not make it substantially more durable when its shirking off meltas like they were n omore than -1 weapons?  Or missiles?  Or anything really.  SUBSTANTIAL damage gets reduced on it, which absords increasingly greater resources.  A unit of Dark Reapers with Maugan Ra will do 5.2 wounds it must save at -2.  They fire twice.  That's about 6 damage you didn't take.  Which means that's another entire round of shooting you WILL get that you WOULDN'T get in the future, just as an example (and CP says you get full statline for them).  And that extra fire in turn COULD be the difference between life and death for other units too when you return the favor.

That's just the example of those missiles.  Against meltaguns the "wound savings" becomes even more significant.  And if a Harpoon hits you, you may re-evaluate your position dramatically for the 10 damage it might save you.  

I'm not explaining anything new.  I'm just saying that were I you, I would value that 40 point investiture over 10 wounds from a Harpoon missile, or the 6 from the Dark Reapers. or from the Dominion Squads or {fill i nthe blank} squads.  

I understand that on occassion the shield will under perform and leave you going "What a waste" but it will over perform many times and leave your opponents cursing.  The thing about averages is, they never actually happen but once in a great while.  We get averages from them underperforming and overperforming.  Still, the averages at least are an indicator, "all else being equal" of what to do and the Stormsurge costs you about 20 points per wound, yeah?  So bouncing 6 wounds is 120 points worth of performance in one round of Dark Reaper shooting (net).  I cannot see a scenario in which this oes not end well for you more often than it does not.  

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@Lord Hanaur

The distinction with the Dal'yth Stormsurge and the other Septs is that the Dal'yth version is usually in cover (due to their trait). So most of the time, it has a 2+ armor save. They only lose cover if they move.

Against weapons that don't deny cover, the weapon needs AP -3 (or better) to warrant the Shield Generators. And then, for the shield generators to have value, the stormsurge still needs to survive, as 4++ only means saving 50% of the time.

Additionally, if the opponent is able to fire at the stormsurge from close range (~12" away) or attack in melee, I'm screwed either way, being a TAU player.

I agree that with a 3+ armor save (for non-Dal'yth Stormsurges), the shield generators have more merit.

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1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

@Lord Hanaur

The distinction with the Dal'yth Stormsurge and the other Septs is that the Dal'yth version is usually in cover (due to their trait). So most of the time, it has a 2+ armor save. They only lose cover if they move.

Against weapons that don't deny cover, the weapon needs AP -3 (or better) to warrant the Shield Generators. And then, for the shield generators to have value, the stormsurge still needs to survive, as 4++ only means saving 50% of the time.

Additionally, if the opponent is able to fire at the stormsurge from close range (~12" away) or attack in melee, I'm screwed either way, being a TAU player.

I agree that with a 3+ armor save (for non-Dal'yth Stormsurges), the shield generators have more merit.

I understood the Sept.  I just don't see how you wont get 2 wounds (40 points) worth of production out of it.  That seems literally impossible to me in almosty every game we might posit.

No biggee either way.  But when you're paying 20 points per wound to own the Stormsurge (and I've had a lot of experience with running one as you know)...  The shield is just kind of an obvious thing, TO ME.  But most people think my lists are stark raving mad anyways, so don't take that as any great argument.  I leave the real thinking up to other more intelligent players who know better than I.  Still, it's my opinion for what it may be worth.

 

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1 hour ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I understood the Sept.  I just don't see how you wont get 2 wounds (40 points) worth of production out of it.  That seems literally impossible to me in almosty every game we might posit.

No biggee either way.  But when you're paying 20 points per wound to own the Stormsurge (and I've had a lot of experience with running one as you know)...  The shield is just kind of an obvious thing, TO ME.  But most people think my lists are stark raving mad anyways, so don't take that as any great argument.  I leave the real thinking up to other more intelligent players who know better than I.  Still, it's my opinion for what it may be worth.

I do see your logic. And your lists make sense to me. They require more organization and memory than I have to devote to the game, so they wouln't work for me, but I do see how they'd work for you.

Anyway, My logic is twofold.

First, I'm paying 85pts per destroyer missile and all the other stuff is bonuses. And I'm only paying that because we can't get anti-invulernable save weapons any other way. And, in fairness, a psyker would be at least 80pts in most armies, and would produce a similar number of mortal wounds in a given turn with less range and less accuracy, so it's not a terrible price per missile, just high when it comes to buying all 4 at once. And because I use them all up at once in turn 1, I don't really need it to survive past that initial salvo. Like most things TAU, its a glass cannon.

Second, the more points I spend on the Stormsurge, the more impressive it needs to be when I use it. And likewise, the more impressive other units are that get compared against it. The stock stormsurge is comparable with an imperial knight of equal cost. But at equal cost, the Gallant is the only Knight that qualifies (which is still, a tad more expensive than my stormsurge). And against a Gallant (that's the double melee weapon knights), the Stormsurge should be fine. But tacking on more points doesn't make the Stormsurge dramatically more impressive - quite the opposite, it just becomes a better target for the opponent to focus on since it occupies more of my points and becomes comparable with much more impressive units.

In conclusion, I view the stormsurge as a Destroyer missile missile platform. It's main role is to thin targets that rely on invulnerable saves (like units with stormshields, riptides, and so forth). It has a swiss army knife assortment of other weapons, and they can support the army quite well, but they don't do anything that I can't get from the army without the stormsurge. Destroyer missiles are the only uniquely stormsurge option, so if I field it, that's what I am looking for.

And then, of course, I really like how my model looks...😄

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7 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I do see your logic. And your lists make sense to me. They require more organization and memory than I have to devote to the game, so they wouln't work for me, but I do see how they'd work for you.

Anyway, My logic is twofold.

First, I'm paying 85pts per destroyer missile and all the other stuff is bonuses. And I'm only paying that because we can't get anti-invulernable save weapons any other way. And, in fairness, a psyker would be at least 80pts in most armies, and would produce a similar number of mortal wounds in a given turn with less range and less accuracy, so it's not a terrible price per missile, just high when it comes to buying all 4 at once. And because I use them all up at once in turn 1, I don't really need it to survive past that initial salvo. Like most things TAU, its a glass cannon.

Second, the more points I spend on the Stormsurge, the more impressive it needs to be when I use it. And likewise, the more impressive other units are that get compared against it. The stock stormsurge is comparable with an imperial knight of equal cost. But at equal cost, the Gallant is the only Knight that qualifies (which is still, a tad more expensive than my stormsurge). And against a Gallant (that's the double melee weapon knights), the Stormsurge should be fine. But tacking on more points doesn't make the Stormsurge dramatically more impressive - quite the opposite, it just becomes a better target for the opponent to focus on since it occupies more of my points and becomes comparable with much more impressive units.

In conclusion, I view the stormsurge as a Destroyer missile missile platform. It's main role is to thin targets that rely on invulnerable saves (like units with stormshields, riptides, and so forth). It has a swiss army knife assortment of other weapons, and they can support the army quite well, but they don't do anything that I can't get from the army without the stormsurge. Destroyer missiles are the only uniquely stormsurge option, so if I field it, that's what I am looking for.

And then, of course, I really like how my model looks...😄

I would have a hard time looking at the Surge as just 85 per missile.  I mean I get that they are cool, but AT BEST you're hoping for 8 Mortal wounds, and while that's FAN-FREAKING -TASTIC in  my book, it's also definitely not all you got for those points you spent.  I think you may be minimizing the value the Stormsurge brings, and not just in its ability to chuck those missiles.  The Surge is certainly not what it used to be.  WAY slower, WAY less hitty, WAY less powerful missiles.  But its a gunboat and its a very ACCURATE gunboat comparatively.  It ablates damage to other units that would otherwise have been fair game but now must be left for later as the enemy pounds your 20 T7 wounds and the more you can take the less other things get shot.  To allow it to continue on for a longer period is an ablative measure not just for him but for other units as well.

I know I won't convert you...yet...  and I think I've gone on enough about the Surge shield, so smite fiercely, and git 'em.  

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29 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I would have a hard time looking at the Surge as just 85 per missile.  I mean I get that they are cool, but AT BEST you're hoping for 8 Mortal wounds, and while that's FAN-FREAKING -TASTIC in  my book, it's also definitely not all you got for those points you spent.  I think you may be minimizing the value the Stormsurge brings, and not just in its ability to chuck those missiles.  The Surge is certainly not what it used to be.  WAY slower, WAY less hitty, WAY less powerful missiles.  But its a gunboat and its a very ACCURATE gunboat comparatively.  It ablates damage to other units that would otherwise have been fair game but now must be left for later as the enemy pounds your 20 T7 wounds and the more you can take the less other things get shot.  To allow it to continue on for a longer period is an ablative measure not just for him but for other units as well.

I know I won't convert you...yet...  and I think I've gone on enough about the Surge shield, so smite fiercely, and git 'em.  

I totally agree, it does other things and it does them well, but the other things it does are things I could do elsewhere in the army. And if not for the destroyer missiles uniquely here, I'd rather have my points elsewhere, even if the end result was similar in terms of firepower.

Regarding gunboat accuracy, the FW flyers are a better buy. Base BS 3+ or 2+ is better, plus they don't waste a detachment being Lords of War. But they don't have destroyer missiles.

Regarding the actual mortal wound damage, it's not much. It's just that the TAU lack other options here. Good news is that most opponents don't have 2++ or 3++ on every unit. Goal is about 6 mortal wounds to a target of my choosing, which I think is a reasonable goal for 4x destroyer missiles.

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Got a game in against Lyraeus. I was grumpy, and my list was terrible, but we played anyway...All in all, he was probably the best opponent for my unpleasent self. 

I ran the 1k list that doesn't really work with 2x gunrigs haphazzardly stapled on to make the 1250pt limit without having to write a new list. He had cheesy AND horde orks. He would have won just fine with cheese or hordes alone, but lyraeus can't pull punches, so he crushed me quite efficently. He also set up terrain definitely in his favor, which again, wasn't really needed for victory, just that he likes to be as efficent as possible. Don't think I killed any units. More or less, game went exactly how I pictured it would, though honestly, lyraeus took longer to defeat me than I thought he would - I think he was trying to not lose anything while defeating me, rather than swiftly defeating me while taking losses. 

I suppose I did get out of the house, and that's kinda the goal. That and I was there to trade something with someone that never showed up...

Anyway, thank you for the game, Lyraeus. I didn't really have fun, but I'm not sure I could have really had fun with the mood I was in, and you really did put up with my crappy mood quite well. So thank you for the game.

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