Faction Focus - Adepta Sororitas

[Frowbakk]

So, thinking out loud... Ten Retributors for 90 points, Four Heavy Flamers at 56, CombiMelta on the Superior for 15 and in a Rhino for 75 totals out to 236.

1 CP - Holy Trinity would give them +1 to Wound. However, ALSO 1 CP - Faith and Fury lets them re-roll 1's to wound, but only if they have had a successful test for an Act of Faith.

The only AoF useable in the Shooting Phase is Divine Guidance, which goes off on a 4+.

So, rather than a coin-flip, add in a Simulacrum Imperialis for 10 points, be Order of the Ebon Chalice and get that AoF off on a 2+.

Is it clutch enough to drop a Bolter Retributor and have a Dialogus ride along for the re-rollable 2+ AoF (only 1 in 36 chance of failure)? Might as well have a Canoness ride along in another vehicle for the re-roll 1's to hit aura and bring the Dialogus along in her ride rather than boot a Bolter Retributor out of the unit to make space.

So Turn 1, Drive the Rhino 12" +d6" towards your target. Preferably with a lot of other Rhinos/Immolators/Etc to draw any enemy enmity...

Turn 2, Disembark 3", Move 6" (Or what the hell, 9" with Hand of the Emperor going of on a 2+ as well), to get within the 8" range with the Heavy Flamers (which gets the Bolters within double-tap range).

Assuming everything is in range and that Divine Guidance goes off on a 2+, then pop the 1 CP - Faith and Fury to allow re-rolls of 1's to wound, another 1 CP - Holy Trinity for a +1 to Wound.

Hitting on 2's due to Divine Guidance and in the re-roll 1's Aura of a Canoness then quick estimate mathammer (someone else can run the real numbers) means 5 Rapid Firing Bolters hitting on a re-rollable 2+, the Superior's Combi-Melta also dropping all shots on a 3+ with re-rolling 1's (because Holy Trinity says that EVERYTHING in the unit must fire at the same target) and with 4d6 Heavy Flamer auto hits on top.

So 14-ish S5 AP -1 hits, 10-12 S4 AP - hits and an S8 AP -4 hit with +1 to wound and re-roll 1's to wound.

If shooting Marines, that would be 14-ish 2+ re-rollable wounds, saving on a 4+ from the Heavy Flamers (so maybe 7 unsaved wounds), 10 to 12 Bolters wounding on 3's and re-rolling 1's, saving on 3's (so 3 to 4 unsaved wounds) and a Melta shot re-rolling to wound (for a d6 unsaved wounds) meaning 10 or so Dead Marines or 5 Primaris gone.

Against a Knight the Heavy Flamers would wound on a 4+ and re-roll 1's, saved on a 4+ (meaning 4 wounds get through, assuming no 3++ shenanigans), Bolters wound on 5's, re-rolling 1's (so 1 or 2 get past the armor save) and then the Melta shot wounds on a 3+, re-rolling 1's for another probable 2 d6 damage, pick the highest to get through. Perhaps 6 to 8 or more wounds on a Knight, or a few more to T7 Transport give or take.

So, still just under the cost of two Exorcists at 246 points and supported by a Canoness, Dialogus, an Act of Faith and 2 CP.

Who's ready to throw some heretics on the 'barbie?

Or do the actual mathhammer of this vs. a full squad of Stormbolter Dominions using 1 CP - Blessed Bolts?

[pretre]

Sounds like the old easy bake. Still waiting for my book though. 🙂

[Frowbakk]

Also labelled 'The Evil Unit" by a friend of mine upon being on the receiving end of the EZ-Bake Oven.

[Dusldorf]

It's a cool combo but too many moving parts imo. I would rather have two exorcists, and/or a few squads of storm bolter doms.

[Frowbakk]

'Tis a bit spendy for what it does, I'll admit.

I've become used to running an almost all Mechanized list and driving enough bolters up in a Canoness's re-roll 1's aura to try and get the job done in Turn 2 or 3.

I'm going to miss those double-moving Seraphim Speedbumps, though.

[Dusldorf]

Yeah I'll miss those too. Honestly I think for my core I'm going to be running 2 or 3 immos with dominion storm bolter sisters, plus 2 rhinos--one with arco-flagellants and a priest, the other with either repentia or bolter sisters and a mistress/canoness. Exorcists in the back, maybe one big seraphim squad...probably still take Celestine and play her like Mephiston. Just hide and be really careful w/ her..either use to counter-assault or make a precision strike at a point in the game where I know I won't care if she dies for good.

[Ish]

Well, you were probably going to have the Canoness, a Dialogus, and the four-heavy flamer Retributor Squad in the army anyway...

You might as well take advantage of it.

[pretre]

35 minutes ago, Ish said:

Well, you were probably going to have the Canoness, a Dialogus, and the four-heavy flamer Retributor Squad in the army anyway...

You might as well take advantage of it.

Yes, yes and no. I haven't run 4 HF Rets since the days of easy bakes.

[Ish]

Fair enough, but with the new Holy Trinity stratagem in the mix, it is probably worth including a mix a weapons in squads now. Two Heavy Flamers and two Multi-Meltas seems like a good general purpose Retributor Squad mix (with a combi-bolter on the Superior).

 

[Dusldorf]

It's just so inefficient 😞 . Why not take a single melta and a single flamer in a regular squad, and run retributors with heavy bolters, which are still clearly the most efficient?

[Frowbakk]

Range differentials.

If you want that sweet +1 to Wound from Holy Trinity, then each one of the Flamer, Melta, and Bolter type weapons need to be in range for it to work.

[Dusldorf]

yes i know, but my point is, given that having everything within range is unlikely to happen, why commit more points into the unit? instead just treat the unit like a bolter unit, and then be happily surprised if at least once during the game you happen to be within flamer range to use the stratagem. the wastefulness occurs when you commit to the idea of getting an expensive unit within flamer range. it's bound to disappoint.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Dusldorf said:

yes i know, but my point is, given that having everything within range is unlikely to happen, why commit more points into the unit? instead just treat the unit like a bolter unit, and then be happily surprised if at least once during the game you happen to be within flamer range to use the stratagem. the wastefulness occurs when you commit to the idea of getting an expensive unit within flamer range. it's bound to disappoint.

But that's every army in 40k. I make a melee army and have to rush into melee range. I make a long range army and can't cope with melee. I make a mid-range army and can't cope with long range. So on and so forth.

I agree that the mentioned unit doesn't sound very efficent, but the idea of focusing on a single range increment is pretty normal for 40k armies and units. And viability is often up to what the opponent brings.

 

[Dusldorf]

Nah it's not the same. If you pick a melee unit, obviously it's most efficient to get into melee. But if you pick a unit of battle sisters, you have the choice of whether they're close-, mid-, or long-ranged. And in that scenario I don't think it makes any sense to select weapons that pigeon-hole you into close-ranged play. (Unless, of course, we're talking about melta dominions, but that's unrelated to this discussion about the Holy Trinity strat). I think it's way more justifiable to build units in a way that will allow them to capitalize on Holy Trinity under special circumstances, than in a way that makes them unable to get their points back *unless* they're in range for Holy Trinity. Does that make sense?

[Ish]

I see Holy Trinity as an opportunistic stratagem: use it when the opportunity arises, but don’t hang your gameplan on it.

Its probably worth making sure every unit has one of the three weapon types when you build your list to make sure you have the chance to use it when opportunity arises. But, given that boltguns are pretty much ubiquitous, all you really need to do is figure out how to work a melta- and a flamer-type into the squad. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Dusldorf said:

Nah it's not the same. If you pick a melee unit, obviously it's most efficient to get into melee. But if you pick a unit of battle sisters, you have the choice of whether they're close-, mid-, or long-ranged. And in that scenario I don't think it makes any sense to select weapons that pigeon-hole you into close-ranged play. (Unless, of course, we're talking about melta dominions, but that's unrelated to this discussion about the Holy Trinity strat). I think it's way more justifiable to build units in a way that will allow them to capitalize on Holy Trinity under special circumstances, than in a way that makes them unable to get their points back *unless* they're in range for Holy Trinity. Does that make sense?

In an army where each unit is pre-designed for only one role, it makes sense. 

If you've got enough choices on the unit where they can be kitted to many roles, it makes less sense. My CSM troops can be a melee unit, a moving mid-range unit, or a stationary mid-long range unit. Each role is perfectly viable.

If they kit the retributors to extreme short range, it's one such role. I agree that the mentioned build doesn't see very efficient for the mentioned targets. I also don't think the delivery method (rhino) is very viable.

I would argue that I think the the value of holy trinity stratagem is found on melta weapons vs T8+ models. I don't really find it very impressive on flamer or bolter weapons. I think it's more GW's excuse for not giving sisters lascannons (which would look stupid on sisters). It effectively grants sisters S9 melta guns without altering the models. Seems like a good solution. 

 

[Ish]

I could see the Sisters getting missile launchers. Krak Missiles don’t quite do what Lascannons do, but they would give the Sisters a long-range anti-vehicle option that they don’t have now.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ish said:

I could see the Sisters getting missile launchers. Krak Missiles don’t quite do what Lascannons do, but they would give the Sisters a long-range anti-vehicle option that they don’t have now.

Not going to happen with how GW seems to be doing things lately. They'll get some new weapon whose design is very copyrightable. No missile launchers for sisters.

Honestly, not expecting a whole lot of new models for the line. I think the push the plastic is the main thing, and actually new units might be pretty limited. Might get an Exorcist variant that comes in the same kit. Might get a penitent engine variant.

Would not be surprised if the new sisters are Primaris Sisters, and GW forces all the sisters players to buy new sisters.

[pretre]

11 hours ago, Ish said:

I could see the Sisters getting missile launchers. Krak Missiles don’t quite do what Lascannons do, but they would give the Sisters a long-range anti-vehicle option that they don’t have now.

They have missile launchers, they just need to fix Exorcist and add Heavy 1 Exorcist launchers to squads or other vehicles

[Dusldorf]

They already fixed the Exorcist, it's d6 damage now and only 125 points. Easy include!

[fluger]

Yeah, Holy Trinity seems situational, not something to build lists around in the same way the Ork strat to recycle a unit can be a game breaker.

[Frowbakk]

Yeah, but my thinking out loud to try and get the extreme utility out of it showed it took a 250 point unit two support characters and two CP to kill off 10 Marines.

Not exactly the stellar return on investment available from other armies in the top tier.

[Ish]

Killing ten Marines in a single round of shooting is a pretty high bar to clear. Most infantry units in the game are going to need similar investment in points and support characters in order to accomplish this.

[Dusldorf]

https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/breaking-complete-sisters-of-battle-points-rules-changes.html

[Ish]

Ten Battle Sisters with a combi-flamer on the Superior, a meltagun, and a heavy bolter (a nice generalist mix) transported in a Rhino with an extra storm bolter works out to 205 Points, if I'm reading this right. A similarly equipped Tactical Squad clocks in at 268 Points...