Orks 2k list building

[Dark Trainer]

4 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

To echo this @Dark Trainer your index orks like Big Mek with KFF on or off bike, Warboss in mega armor or on warbike, will not have Dakka Dakka Dakka. They will have the current 'ere we go rules because you use the most recent version of that. 

Say what? So I get he can have the KFF, so battlescribe is not wrong, but why. Two questions, where is this 'index' just because it says other wargear on page 135? That makes it sound like any could take it...

 

And losing DAKKA is FAQ?

[Lyraeus]

11 minutes ago, Dark Trainer said:

Say what? So I get he can have the KFF, so battlescribe is not wrong, but why. Two questions, where is this 'index' just because it says other wargear on page 135? That makes it sound like any could take it...

 

And losing DAKKA is FAQ?

There is a handy dandy flow chart GW made. For things in the codex if they don't have the same options as the index you use the Index Dataslate (where the stats and abilities are of the unit) and the point and effects of the codex for everything. 

 

So index Big Mek doesn't have Dakka Dakka Dakka but gets a KFF. Codex version does get dakka dakka dakka but no KFF 

[Guest]

 

[Dark Trainer]

2 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

There is a handy dandy flow chart GW made. For things in the codex if they don't have the same options as the index you use the Index Dataslate (where the stats and abilities are of the unit) and the point and effects of the codex for everything. 

 

So index Big Mek doesn't have Dakka Dakka Dakka but gets a KFF. Codex version does get dakka dakka dakka but no KFF 

Ah, i just found that. Never saw the datasheet before. Man, that was tricky.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dark Trainer said:

Ah, i just found that. Never saw the datasheet before. Man, that was tricky.

I feel that list creation in 8e is probably the most confusing it's ever been, but actually playing 40k is much easier than it's ever  been in just about any edition.

[Ish]

If you don’t use Index units and don’t use multiple factions, list creation isn’t that much more difficult than any previous edition (once you get used to the new separation of model and weapon pricing). 

Since the various indices are optional and running multiple codices is also option, one can’t complain too much about added complexity that you opted to add to yourself! 

[Lyraeus]

30 minutes ago, Ish said:

If you don’t use Index units and don’t use multiple factions, list creation isn’t that much more difficult than any previous edition (once you get used to the new separation of model and weapon pricing). 

Since the various indices are optional and running multiple codices is also option, one can’t complain too much about added complexity that you opted to add to yourself! 

Orks... Single codex, single index. Warboss and Big Mek are important 

[VonVilkee]

4 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Orks... Single codex, single index. Warboss and Big Mek are important 

Totally true but why! And for how long?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Ish said:

If you don’t use Index units and don’t use multiple factions, list creation isn’t that much more difficult than any previous edition (once you get used to the new separation of model and weapon pricing). 

Since the various indices are optional and running multiple codices is also option, one can’t complain too much about added complexity that you opted to add to yourself! 

Even there, you still have to go back and forth between chapter approved and your codex just to get the points, plus the big rulebook for the detachment rules. And you still have 4+ seperate FAQs to cover those three books.

Used to be that I needed only the codex. The detachments were the same in (almost) every army and were printed in the codex. The points were in the codex. There might be an FAQ for the codex, but it usually didn't cover anything that really mattered. List creation was very simple.

[Ish]

Battlescribe!

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Ish said:

Battlescribe!

Yeah, I love battlescribe. 

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, VonVilkee said:

Totally true but why! And for how long?

Well Age of Sigmar still has bretonians and they don't have a codex and that is on V2 already. 

 

The why is simple. The Chapterhouse lawsuit. GW does not Iike losing sales and while they love conversions they want to sell models. So they only put models in they are making

[VonVilkee]

17 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Well Age of Sigmar still has bretonians and they don't have a codex and that is on V2 already. 

 

The why is simple. The Chapterhouse lawsuit. GW does not Iike losing sales and while they love conversions they want to sell models. So they only put models in they are making

I needed smileys to get my overly dramatic sarcastic comment to hit like I pictured it... but alas I use a phone to post and I'm lazy. 

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, VonVilkee said:

I needed smileys to get my overly dramatic sarcastic comment to hit like I pictured it... but alas I use a phone to post and I'm lazy. 

Hahaha you are fine. It's still great Info for those that don't know

[VonVilkee]

1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

Hahaha you are fine. It's still great Info for those that don't know

Touche good sir!

[Dark Trainer]

Trying something I keep hearing about (shooty Orks) for the 750 list. I'm bringing a little non pure shooty, but here's my thought so far.

• Kultur: Bad Moons
• Big Mek (KFF)
• Weirdboy (Warpath and da jump)
• 30 Choppa boyz with nob+klaw
• 20 shoota boyz with nob+klaw
• 11 gretchin
• 11 lootas (deffguns)

I hear Orks can be shooty. I'm told Bad moons are best for that because of re-rolling 1's and the 'more dakka' stratagem. The 20 shoota boyz is just to add onto shooting as they cross the board. The 30 choppa boyz will da jump turn 1 into their face (even if not making it into combat, they are a threat getting people to ignore the lootas). The gretchin sit with the lootas to grot shield them. I think the Big Mek is kind of wasted here as the army splits up (was tempted to drop KFF for shokk attack gun, but feel the 5++ is just too nice to pass up), but not looking for a perfect synergy list. 

Any other things you find do well as shooty? I have bikers & deffkoptas too.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Dark Trainer said:

Trying something I keep hearing about (shooty Orks) for the 750 list. I'm bringing a little non pure shooty, but here's my thought so far.

• Kultur: Bad Moons
• Big Mek (KFF)
• Weirdboy (Warpath and da jump)
• 30 Choppa boyz with nob+klaw
• 20 shoota boyz with nob+klaw
• 11 gretchin
• 11 lootas (deffguns)

I hear Orks can be shooty. I'm told Bad moons are best for that because of re-rolling 1's and the 'more dakka' stratagem. The 20 shoota boyz is just to add onto shooting as they cross the board. The 30 choppa boyz will da jump turn 1 into their face (even if not making it into combat, they are a threat getting people to ignore the lootas). The gretchin sit with the lootas to grot shield them. I think the Big Mek is kind of wasted here, but not looking for a perfect synergy list. 

Any other things you find do well as shooty?

Looks like a list where I could "escape into melee" if I had a couple of durable units (like an HQ with 2+ armor and 3++ inv save). Most of your list's strength is at range and can't fire into melee. You could fall back, but you'd lose a substancial portion of your shooting/attacks in doing so due to having only a few total units that really do anything (3 main units, lootas, choppas and shootas).

Don't know if there some reason orks can't take smaller units, but I'd consider 10-shroom ork units at this point level, maybe 15-shroom for choppas. Should also help mitigate overwatch losses if you have multiple advancing units (one unit charges to lock the enemy, then the other unit can charge without overwatch risks). Lootas should probably be 5-shroom, unless they can't be fielded that small, so they don't get focus fired off the table. 11 grots won't really solve this, as frag missiles work just fine against lootas. 

[Ish]

Orks generally want to keep their basic boyz in large squads due to morale issues. Mob Rule means they use the squad’s own Leadership (6 or 7 with a Boss Nob), the number of models in the unit, or the number of models in a friendly unit (that also has this ability) within 6".

So a suitably large number of Ork Shoota Boyz or Slugga Boyz can be all but immune to morale while it runs across the table. They’ll lose about a third of the lads to enemy shooting, but they’ll still get into mêlée. Once Ork Boyz are in mêlée (even “shooty” mobz like Shoota Boys) they generally outperform any other basic infantry point-for-point.

The only real reason to run less than 15-lad strong mobz is so you can stick them in a Trukk. Even then, you probably want to have a big 30-lad mob running behind them on foot... The Trukk Boyz are your first wave: zoom up, hop out, assault. Then the big green tide of footsloggers rolls in next turn.

[fluger]

1 hour ago, Dark Trainer said:

11 gretchin

• 11 lootas (deffguns)

Gretchin are CRITICAL for keeping Lootas alive.  At 2k, 20 wasn't even enough, probably ok at 750.

The combo that makes Bad Moon Lootas sing is mobbing up 15+10, then using the generic "more dakka" strat to auto hit on 5s and all 5s generate another shot, then combo with Bad oons showin' off strat to shoot again (with more dakka still in effect).  Costs 4 CP a round, but is ridiculous.  

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, Dark Trainer said:

Trying something I keep hearing about (shooty Orks) for the 750 list. I'm bringing a little non pure shooty, but here's my thought so far.

• Kultur: Bad Moons
• Big Mek (KFF)
• Weirdboy (Warpath and da jump)
• 30 Choppa boyz with nob+klaw
• 20 shoota boyz with nob+klaw
• 11 gretchin
• 11 lootas (deffguns)

I hear Orks can be shooty. I'm told Bad moons are best for that because of re-rolling 1's and the 'more dakka' stratagem. The 20 shoota boyz is just to add onto shooting as they cross the board. The 30 choppa boyz will da jump turn 1 into their face (even if not making it into combat, they are a threat getting people to ignore the lootas). The gretchin sit with the lootas to grot shield them. I think the Big Mek is kind of wasted here as the army splits up (was tempted to drop KFF for shokk attack gun, but feel the 5++ is just too nice to pass up), but not looking for a perfect synergy list. 

Any other things you find do well as shooty? I have bikers & deffkoptas too.

Mix the shootas and the choopa boyz. Reason is because they you are engaging at all ranges and with warpath and +20 boyz you are still getting 4 attacks. So even just 10 shoota boyz with 20 Choppa boyz that are Da Jumped, you are getting 40 shots in the shooting phase with dakka dakka dakka. 

 

The Big Mek gives your units a 5++ and if you have to live through T1 it might be a boon

 

[Lyraeus]

16 minutes ago, fluger said:

Gretchin are CRITICAL for keeping Lootas alive.  At 2k, 20 wasn't even enough, probably ok at 750.

The combo that makes Bad Moon Lootas sing is mobbing up 15+10, then using the generic "more dakka" strat to auto hit on 5s and all 5s generate another shot, then combo with Bad oons showin' off strat to shoot again (with more dakka still in effect).  Costs 4 CP a round, but is ridiculous.  

My 2k list has 60 but 50 are Blood Moons and 10 fill out a Deathskulls detachment. 

 

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Looks like a list where I could "escape into melee" if I had a couple of durable units (like an HQ with 2+ armor and 3++ inv save). Most of your list's strength is at range and can't fire into melee. You could fall back, but you'd lose a substancial portion of your shooting/attacks in doing so due to having only a few total units that really do anything (3 main units, lootas, choppas and shootas).

Don't know if there some reason orks can't take smaller units, but I'd consider 10-shroom ork units at this point level, maybe 15-shroom for choppas. Should also help mitigate overwatch losses if you have multiple advancing units (one unit charges to lock the enemy, then the other unit can charge without overwatch risks). Lootas should probably be 5-shroom, unless they can't be fielded that small, so they don't get focus fired off the table. 11 grots won't really solve this, as frag missiles work just fine against lootas. 

Well, play @Dark Trainer on Tuesday and see what happens.

 

I am running my Nob Warbikers and Kommandos list so not a good representation of that. At 1k I come back to normal

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Ish said:

Orks generally want to keep their basic boyz in large squads due to morale issues. Mob Rule means they use the squad’s own Leadership (6 or 7 with a Boss Nob), the number of models in the unit, or the number of models in a friendly unit (that also has this ability) within 6".

So a suitably large number of Ork Shoota Boyz or Slugga Boyz can be all but immune to morale while it runs across the table. They’ll lose about a third of the lads to enemy shooting, but they’ll still get into mêlée. Once Ork Boyz are in mêlée (even “shooty” mobz like Shoota Boys) they generally outperform any other basic infantry point-for-point.

The only real reason to run less than 15-lad strong mobz is so you can stick them in a Trukk. Even then, you probably want to have a big 30-lad mob running behind them on foot... The Trukk Boyz are your first wave: zoom up, hop out, assault. Then the big green tide of footsloggers rolls in next turn.

Sure, at 2k.

But at 750 when your list includes only 3 units that actually contribute firepower, you may reconsider putting 30shroom blobs on the table. 

And regarding running across the table in big ork blobs, it's not hard to kill 15 regular orks in one shooting phase, even with an army not fully dedciated to shooting (like SM) and with a working KFF. Killing 15 means testing morale at 1d6+15 vs ld 15 for a formerly 30shroom blob... So now you are likely wasting command points to keep them on the table (insane bravery).

At the 10 shroom level, they have to split fire. They're more likely to use excessive firepower on a single unit, than they are to inflict a morale check that is worse that you'd face as a bigger unit. 

Plus, as I understand it, there is a stratagem to combine ork units mid-game.

[Lyraeus]

5 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Sure, at 2k.

But at 750 when your list includes only 3 units that actually contribute firepower, you may reconsider putting 30shroom blobs on the table. 

And regarding running across the table in big ork blobs, it's not hard to kill 15 regular orks in one shooting phase, even with an army not fully dedciated to shooting (like SM) and with a working KFF. Killing 15 means testing morale at 1d6+15 vs ld 15 for a formerly 30shroom blob... So now you are likely wasting command points to keep them on the table (insane bravery).

At the 10 shroom level, they have to split fire. They're more likely to use excessive firepower on a single unit, than they are to inflict a morale check that is worse that you'd face as a bigger unit. 

Plus, as I understand it, there is a stratagem to combine ork units mid-game.

Orks don't like taking small units. 

We are not like Tau. We have a 6+ save standard so we die EASILY!!! So anything less than a bigger squad and they just fold and give your opponent points (in ITC) or hurt you badly. Oh and as @Ish  said, morale is a HUGE issue.

Command Points are precious and should not be wasted if you can compensate in list building 

[Ish]

56 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Killing 15 means testing morale at 1d6+15 vs ld 15 for a formerly 30shroom blob.

That’s why they have another thirty-strong mob behind them.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Ish said:

That’s why they have another thirty-strong mob behind them.

Right, but Dark Trainer doesn't have another 30-shroom blob. He's got a unit of 20, a unit of 30, and a unit of 11 that is likely stationary. That's his entire offensive force and why I'm suggesting MSU tactics. 

In terms of Support units, He's got a KFF mek, 11 grots, and a weird boy.