Escalation Painting for January

[Tamwulf]

HQ

Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor

Primaris Lt. w/ powersword and BP

Troops

20 Intercessors

5 Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles 

Got a color scheme (Blue! Ultramarines!), all are primed, some base coating. More models waiting in the wings including Aggressors, Interceptors, Hellblasters, Redemptor, Repulsor, and the new Marnius Calgar (such a cool looking model! Can't wait to paint him and his Victrix Guard). 

[Ish]

Is the Gravis Captain as potbellied in real life as he looks in pictures? I’ve only seen him in the Dark Imperium promotional pics... I find that the Agressors look a lot better “in the flesh” than they do in photos, so I’m wondering if the same thing applies here.

(I don’t have any burning desire to run a Gravis Captain, but I figure I’m going to break down and buy Dark Imperium sooner or later...)

[Sgt. Rock]

I wouldn't say pot-bellied, so much as barrel-chested. Most of the bulk is up in the chest area, and it tapers down a bit across the stomach. Still, his armor does make him look like a bit of a fatty.

Oh, and the Gravis Captain is actually pretty sweet on the tabletop. I had him chew through 9/10 of a squad of Nobz in melee the one time I put him on the board (granted, that was with the Crimson Fists warlord trait, but still.)

[Ish]

On paper, the Gravis Captain seems better than the standard power sword and bolt rifle Primaris Captain, but I’m going to be running the power fist/plasma pistol Primaris Captain. The only real difference between those two is their Toughness. I just don’t think T5 is worth the extra 26 Points...

[Sgt. Rock]

Well, keep in mind that the Gravis captain also brings a power sword to the equation. If you're looking for a melee monster, then he's your guy. He can use the sword for cleaning up chaff like Guard or Tau, or he can use the fist on tougher nuts like orks or MEQs. The fist/plasma isn't a bad profile, by any stretch, it's just that I think the Gravis is more versatile in melee, specifically, and if you wanted to run a more melee-oriented army, he'd be the one you'd want to choose. For a gunline, though, he's a bit of a waste.

[Lyraeus]

7 hours ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Well, keep in mind that the Gravis captain also brings a power sword to the equation. If you're looking for a melee monster, then he's your guy. He can use the sword for cleaning up chaff like Guard or Tau, or he can use the fist on tougher nuts like orks or MEQs. The fist/plasma isn't a bad profile, by any stretch, it's just that I think the Gravis is more versatile in melee, specifically, and if you wanted to run a more melee-oriented army, he'd be the one you'd want to choose. For a gunline, though, he's a bit of a waste.

If there is one thing @Tamwulf found tonight... Power Fist kills orks... REAL GOOD

[Tamwulf]

I thought about using the MC Powersword on the Gravis Captain during two phases: Once against an Ork Boys Mob, and once against the Boss Nob. Relevant stats on the Captain: 

WS: 2+, S: 4 A: 5, rerolling 1's to hit (and with the LT close enough, 1's on wounding). 

Boltstorm Gauntlets: S 8 AP -3 D d3 User -1 to hit

MC Sword: S: 4 AP -3 D 2

For the Boys, T4, and 6++. The Boss: 5++. The AP on both weapons is the same, and the Orks basically received no armor save. 

Vs. the Boys, I was hitting on a 2+, wounding on a 4+ with the sword, 2 damage each wound, or hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, and while the damage is d3, each boy has only 1 wound. So Boltstorm Gauntlets used. 

Vs. the Boss: T5, (or was it 6? Doesn't change the wound roll). Sword: 2+ hit, 5+ wound, 2 damage. Gauntlets: 3+ hit, 3+ wound, d3 damage. Again, Boltstorm Gauntlets are the better choice. 

The only time I'd probably ever consider using the sword on the Gravis Captain would be against < T4 targets with low wounds. Vs T4 and above, it's the Boltstorm Gauntlets all the way. 

The other thing I learned about Ultramarines: They can fall back and shoot. Heroic Intervention is a thing, and there isn't any "locked in combat" anymore. Gotta remember that. Oh, and Ork shooting has gotten much, much better after the Codex. 

[Ish]

I can’t think of anything that the Gravis Captain would want to use his sword on instead of his power fist... Grots? Guardians? 

It strikes me as a clear case of “model was sculpted before the rules were written.”

[Lyraeus]

15 minutes ago, Ish said:

I can’t think of anything that the Gravis Captain would want to use his sword on instead of his power fist... Grots? Guardians? 

It strikes me as a clear case of “model was sculpted before the rules were written.”

Anything T3 and lower should be killed by sword. T4 is a wash as you hit on 2's with 5 attacks so likely 5 hits (with the reroll) but only 3 wounds since you Wound on 4's.

Power fists are 4 wounds roughly

 

That's how they always do this. Check the Voxcast they do. They cover it in episode 1

[Ish]

In the past, however, players at least had some options to swap out the default wargear... Primaris Marines are pretty much locked into whatever comes on the sprue. 

[Guest]

I will note that gravis captain lacks a 2+, and has a 4++, so opponent is encouraged to shoot with zero AP volume fire weapons (melee or range). And he dies quickly to those. His toughness increase is impressive for marine vs marines, but against S3 models, it does nothing, and against S5+ models, it does very little.

I don't think the gravis captain is a very good unit. He'll still crush the TAU in melee.

[Ish]

 Crushing Tau in mêlée is hardly a benchmark. A blind Grot with a chainsword stands an even chance of beating up two Firewarriors! 😃

The Gravis Captain can be given The Armor Indomitus Relic: Replaces their normal armor with a 2+ Save and gives them a once-per-battle 3++. This is basically my “default” Relic choice for my Primaris Warlord and would definitely be my “go to” for a Gravis Captain. 

T5 / 2+ / 4++ can tank a lot of hits, especially since he benefits from the “can’t shoot me, I’m a Character!” rule. If you run him alongside a squad of cannon fodder Loyal Companions, he’ll be protected from a lot of small arms fire as he crosses the table into power fist’ing range. He’s not quite as tank-y as a Terminator Captain with Shield Eternal Relic, but dang close.

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

 Crushing Tau in mêlée is hardly a benchmark. A blind Grot with a chainsword stands an even chance of beating up two Firewarriors! 😃

The Gravis Captain can be given The Armor Indomitus Relic: Replaces their normal armor with a 2+ Save and gives them a once-per-battle 3++. This is basically my “default” Relic choice for my Primaris Warlord and would definitely be my “go to” for a Gravis Captain. 

T5 / 2+ / 4++ can tank a lot of hits, especially since he benefits from the “can’t shoot me, I’m a Character!” rule. If you run him alongside a squad of cannon fodder Loyal Companions, he’ll be protected from a lot of small arms fire as he crosses the table into power fist’ing range. He’s not quite as tank-y as a Terminator Captain with Shield Eternal Relic, but dang close.

Or be Ultramarines and take the 3++ halo

[Sgt. Rock]

3 hours ago, Ish said:

 Crushing Tau in mêlée is hardly a benchmark. A blind Grot with a chainsword stands an even chance of beating up two Firewarriors! 😃

 

Tell that to my Crimson Fists. Shameful, I tell you!

2 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Or be Ultramarines and take the 3++ halo

But then you'd have to play Ultramarines...

Honestly, the Gravis captain seems to fill a particular niche in Space Marine armies. He's the guy you bring if you want a foot slogging melee monster. He's not as fast as a smashcaptain, , he doesn't have deep strike like the Terminator captain, and he can't fit in a Rhino, Razorback, or Land Raider, only a Repulsor. If you're bringing an all-primaris force and really need a melee beat stick, he's fantastic for it. But if you're going traditional marines or mix-n'-match, I'd probably still go with a smashcaptain or a Terminator captain. Neither of them are as resilient, but they'll get into melee to do their work a lot faster. Plus, they have a lot more options for kit; no TH/SS for the primaris dudes, no storm bolters or combi-guns, nothing. GW's new policy of sculpting models first and then making stats to fit them is really quite annoying. 

[Lyraeus]

1 minute ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Tell that to my Crimson Fists. Shameful, I tell you!

But then you'd have to play Ultramarines...

Honestly, the Gravis captain seems to fill a particular niche in Space Marine armies. He's the guy you bring if you want a foot slogging melee monster. He's not as fast as a smashcaptain, , he doesn't have deep strike like the Terminator captain, and he can't fit in a Rhino, Razorback, or Land Raider, only a Repulsor. If you're bringing an all-primaris force and really need a melee beat stick, he's fantastic for it. But if you're going traditional marines or mix-n'-match, I'd probably still go with a smashcaptain or a Terminator captain. Neither of them are as resilient, but they'll get into melee to do their work a lot faster. Plus, they have a lot more options for kit; no TH/SS for the primaris dudes, no storm bolters or combi-guns, nothing. GW's new policy of sculpting models first and then making stats to fit them is really quite annoying. 

It all depends on your list goal. As @Dark Trainer adds in games with objectives yoy will want more and more board presence 

[Ish]

I’m very tempted to take the Gravis Captain body, slap a fancy thunderhammer, fancy storm shield, and appropriately blinged out back banner on him, and call him Captain Lysander.

[Dark Trainer]

3 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

It all depends on your list goal. As @Dark Trainer adds in games with objectives yoy will want more and more board presence 

Yes, trust me, there will not be 'kill only' missions ever again during this league. That's why I got it out of the way early as a learning game (and I totally agree with Pax, worked very well for our 500pt mission). I'll be using 1 more book mission before jumping to the Chapter approved missions and creating some....spoilers 

[Lyraeus]

2 hours ago, Dark Trainer said:

Yes, trust me, there will not be 'kill only' missions ever again during this league. That's why I got it out of the way early as a learning game (and I totally agree with Pax, worked very well for our 500pt mission). I'll be using 1 more book mission before jumping to the Chapter approved missions and creating some....spoilers 

Mmmmhmmmm we doing a campaign? 

[Tamwulf]

So guess we jumped straight from "trying out new things and exploring different army builds" straight to WAAC? I'm sorry I brought a Gravis Captain and promise never to do it again! Wow, never knew that the Gravis Captain was such a bad choice. I'll bring a regular Captain with jump pack, Storm Shield and Thunderhammer next time. Smash Captain, right? 

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, Tamwulf said:

So guess we jumped straight from "trying out new things and exploring different army builds" straight to WAAC? I'm sorry I brought a Gravis Captain and promise never to do it again! Wow, never knew that the Gravis Captain was such a bad choice. I'll bring a regular Captain with jump pack, Storm Shield and Thunderhammer next time. Smash Captain, right? 

Hahahaha 😜 yea so bad it helped win you your first game ^_~ 

 

WAAC is subjective but dependent on the intent of everyone playing. Going to a tournament, WAAC is non existent because everyone there wants to win. 

Bring what you want. I am not bringing my 25 loota list every time. I am feeling out my orks so the more I experience and the more I play, the happier I am

[Guest]

On 1/10/2019 at 9:05 AM, Ish said:

 Crushing Tau in mêlée is hardly a benchmark. A blind Grot with a chainsword stands an even chance of beating up two Firewarriors! 😃

The Gravis Captain can be given The Armor Indomitus Relic: Replaces their normal armor with a 2+ Save and gives them a once-per-battle 3++. This is basically my “default” Relic choice for my Primaris Warlord and would definitely be my “go to” for a Gravis Captain. 

 

SM have such great relics. 

Crushing TAU in melee is hardly a benchmark, but it is a benchmark that some SM fail at. 

[Tamwulf]

4 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Hahahaha 😜 yea so bad it helped win you your first game ^_~ 

 

WAAC is subjective but dependent on the intent of everyone playing. Going to a tournament, WAAC is non existent because everyone there wants to win. 

Bring what you want. I am not bringing my 25 loota list every time. I am feeling out my orks so the more I experience and the more I play, the happier I am

This is not true. Not all players that participate in a tournament want to "win" the tournament. They want to compete, that want to show off painting skills, they want to have fun, they are there to play a game with friends, etc. etc. The attitude that "Everyone that plays in a tournament wants to win" is a false assumption. That might be why some of the players are there, but not all. Now, for the ones that want to win... if that is the only reason they are playing, then it's a text book definition of Win At All Costs, because to them, painting doesn't matter unless it's required, and then the painting is at the bare minimum, sportsmanship doesn't matter, unless it's carefully spelled out and required to win, "fun" is winning the game, not sharing a joke, or being "loose" with the rules. WAAC drops from the tournament after the first loss. WAAC demands an opponent when they get a bye (because it's a "low level win" and they can't maximize victory points for ties later). WAAC players demand to be shown all "sketchy rules", and they constantly call over the judge for arbitration instead of solving rules disputes between the players. 

WAAC is the reason why we have "casual" players, and why they are called "Filthy Casuals" because they don't play to win. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Tamwulf said:

WAAC is the reason why we have "casual" players, and why they are called "Filthy Casuals" because they don't play to win. 

In fairness, it's not like we play to lose either, we just don't concern ourselves with winning or losing.

The competitive player is here to win, me the casual player, I'm usually there to get out of the house...So my goal is obtained just by playing, while the competitive player has to actually do things in the game in order to reach their goal.

[Tamwulf]

In the old Grand Tournament days of GW, the overall winner of a tournament had a composite score based on Painting, Sportsmanship, and Generalship. It was around 50% Sportsmanship, 30% Painting, and 20% W/L record. GW recognized the WAAC attitude as far back as the early 90's and attempted to dissuade and/or limit its impact. Unfortunately, a group of players circumnavigated this by deciding before hand which one of them they wanted to win, and then gave low painting and low sportsmanship scores to everyone but the people in their circle who received the highest scores. It's an absurdly low number of people (like 8 out of 64) that can skew the numbers enough such that they can decide who will win the tournament. 

Then the GT's went out of style, and the idea of sportsmanship and painting became less and less valuable until they where dropped altogether, and only your W/L record matters, and not only a win, but how much did you win by. The overall winner of an ITC tournament is not only the player with the best W/L record, but the one with the highest win spread. Thus, encouraging a WAAC mentality, where how you play, what your models look like, and how you act towards your opponent are disregarded. Only crushing them and maximizing your Victory Points matter. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Tamwulf said:

In the old Grand Tournament days of GW, the overall winner of a tournament had a composite score based on Painting, Sportsmanship, and Generalship. It was around 50% Sportsmanship, 30% Painting, and 20% W/L record. GW recognized the WAAC attitude as far back as the early 90's and attempted to dissuade and/or limit its impact. Unfortunately, a group of players circumnavigated this by deciding before hand which one of them they wanted to win, and then gave low painting and low sportsmanship scores to everyone but the people in their circle who received the highest scores. It's an absurdly low number of people (like 8 out of 64) that can skew the numbers enough such that they can decide who will win the tournament. 

Then the GT's went out of style, and the idea of sportsmanship and painting became less and less valuable until they where dropped altogether, and only your W/L record matters, and not only a win, but how much did you win by. The overall winner of an ITC tournament is not only the player with the best W/L record, but the one with the highest win spread. Thus, encouraging a WAAC mentality, where how you play, what your models look like, and how you act towards your opponent are disregarded. Only crushing them and maximizing your Victory Points matter. 

Yeah, that's it. Not just there though, it's happening in lots of fields outside of just 40k. It's a shift from neutral good to lawful neutral.