New/Returning players: Important Video on Close Combat

[Lyraeus]

1 minute ago, peter.cosgrove said:

yes, if it uses a full 10 .. wait.. let me get a ruler.

Remember it's hull. So if you are using the treads as hull measure from there. Though those turrets likely force the unit to turn in odd ways

[peter.cosgrove]

2 minutes ago, pretre said:

Does the hull not have to move through a base? Does it end more than 1” away?

then yes it can fallback. Everything other than that is irrelevant according to the rules I have repeatedly quoted for you.

Yes, the hull has to move through a base, the hull is OVER a base.

wait, you mean, then no, it can fall back, I think.

[pretre]

Stop drawing diagrams though and quote actual rules. You are still creating circumstances that don’t involve the rules. Show me in the rules where anything other than base and hull matters.

[Ish]

Note that my "cylinders and rectangles" idea completely avoids this problem.

[Lyraeus]

Just now, peter.cosgrove said:

Yes, the hull has to move through a base, the hull is OVER a base.

It shouldn't be then as that's illegal on the charge. The rules specify measuring from hull for things like shooting, movement and charging

[pretre]

Just now, peter.cosgrove said:

Yes, the hull has to move through a base, the hull is OVER a base.

Over doesn’t matter because you measure from base to hull. Base is only like a eight of an inch tall and doesn’t intersect the part of he hull over it.

[pretre]

Just now, Ish said:

Note that my "cylinders and rectangles" idea completely avoids this problem.

But isn’t supported by the rules. It’s an elegant solution but not the solution that exists.

[peter.cosgrove]

Just now, Lyraeus said:

It shouldn't be then as that's illegal on the charge. The rules specify measuring from hull for things like shooting, movement and charging

Umm.. wait, what?

[peter.cosgrove]

Ok, I will take more pictures.

[pretre]

Just now, peter.cosgrove said:

Ok, I will take more pictures.

NO

stop and read what has been written. Pictures don’t help.

[Lyraeus]

1 minute ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Umm.. wait, what?

Based on the rules for movement, any and all movement for things without bases is from the Hull of the model. 

[peter.cosgrove]

a picture is worth a thousand words it's said.

[pretre]

6 minutes ago, pretre said:

Stop drawing diagrams though and quote actual rules. You are still creating circumstances that don’t involve the rules. Show me in the rules where anything other than base and hull matters.

Imagine this as a picture then 🙂

[peter.cosgrove]

Just now, pretre said:

Imagine this as a picture then 🙂

I believe I did. A model cannot move through other models. Obviously, that's a point of discussion.

I am saying that to me, I feel that, RAW, a model is a model, not just a base.

[pretre]

15 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

 

If it makes you feel any better, I believe, in this scenario you couldn't fallback, because the hull of the tank (at the level of the bases, i.e. the part touching the board) would have to go through the bases, which is a no no. That has nothing to do with the top of the tank over the bases though.

[pretre]

Just now, peter.cosgrove said:

I believe I did. A model cannot move through other models. Obviously, that's a point of discussion.

I am saying that to me, I feel that, RAW, a model is a model, not just a base.

A models base or hull cannot move through other models. Your feelings are irrelevant. the rules are relevant. Quote me the rules that support your feelings.  I have repeatedly quoted the rules that support mine.

 

Distances in Warhammer
40,000 are measured in
inches (") between the
closest points of the bases
of the models you’re
measuring to and from. If
a model does not have a
base, such is the case with
many vehicles, measure to
and from the closest point
of that model’s hull instead.
You can measure distances
whenever you wish.

 

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or less
than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet. No part of the model’s base
(or hull) can move further than this. It
cannot be moved through other models
or through terrain features such as walls,
but can be moved vertically in order to
climb or traverse any scenery.

 

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or less
than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet. No part of the model’s base
(or hull) can move further than this. It
cannot be moved through other models
or through terrain features such as walls,
but can be moved vertically in order to
climb or traverse any scenery.

 

 

 

[pretre]

1 minute ago, pretre said:

If it makes you feel any better, I believe, in this scenario you couldn't fallback, because the hull of the tank (at the level of the bases, i.e. the part touching the board) would have to go through the bases, which is a no no. That has nothing to do with the top of the tank over the bases though.

To be clear the fist isn't blocking it, but the two bases that are in the path of the treads at base/board level are.

[Lyraeus]

Well... Pictures are worth a thousand words. What about a picture of the rule in contention. 

 

Moving specifies Hull and bases and hull can't move further than the max movement. No part of the base or hull can move through models. 

 

So if you are measuring that Land Raiders sponsons as hull (as one should) they can't move over models. 

[peter.cosgrove]

Just now, pretre said:

If it makes you feel any better, I believe, in this scenario you couldn't fallback, because the hull of the tank (at the level of the bases, i.e. the part touching the board) would have to go through the bases, which is a no no. That has nothing to do with the top of the tank over the bases though.

yep, I was just in the middle of taking those two pictures. Thank you.

Bear in mind, that MY contention, based on RAW, is that it cannot ALSO because it would be moving the jump pack and the dreadnought fist, which would be moving through other models, WHICH is what Paxmiles was talking about when he name&shamed me. 

If I was playing the landraider, I would not think I could fall back, If I was playing the DC/Dreadnaught and my opponent said they wanted to fall back, as has happened to me a few times competitive, I wouldn't argue. I WOULD chastise myself for not ensuring that I had enough movement left over to move a model directly behind the landraider to ensure that no possibility exists.

[pretre]

3 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

yep, I was just in the middle of taking those two pictures. Thank you.

Bear in mind, that MY contention, based on RAW, is that it cannot ALSO because it would be moving the jump pack and the dreadnought fist, which would be moving through other models, WHICH is what Paxmiles was talking about when he name&shamed me. 

If I was playing the landraider, I would not think I could fall back, If I was playing the DC/Dreadnaught and my opponent said they wanted to fall back, as has happened to me a few times competitive, I wouldn't argue. I WOULD chastise myself for not ensuring that I had enough movement left over to move a model directly behind the landraider to ensure that no possibility exists.

That’s cool.

[peter.cosgrove]

50 minutes ago, Ish said:

Actually, in this instance it would refer to the last referenced subject of the paragraph (usually a proper noun). In this case, the "it" is referencing "the model’s base
(or hull)." A trick we were taught in paralegal school for resolving vagaries caused by unclear pronouns is to replace the pronoun with the full name of the subject. It's more awkward to read, but it works:
 

 

Actually, that doesn't work. Because your version doesn't say, "The model's base cannot be moved through other model's bases.."

Your version would still say that you cannot move through other models.

It specifically says "other models" not "other model's bases"

[Ish]

The model's base is part of the model.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Bear in mind, that MY contention, based on RAW, is that it cannot ALSO because it would be moving the jump pack and the dreadnought fist, which would be moving through other models, WHICH is what Paxmiles was talking about when he name&shamed me.

For clarity, I didn't mean to "shame you". Sorry that it offended you. 

I didn't mean to suggest you were an unpleasant player, just that their use of heroic intervention reminded me of that backpacks thing. In hindsight, I really should have clarified better.

[SPaceORK]

Wow... This thread.

First off if your trying to pull this ...stuff off on Pax, your a... butthole. Never meet the guy, but I definitely ain't going to pull out the this rules lawyering, sketchy at best rules interpretation on him if I'm playing him. He's already going to be grumpy cause my Blood Angels and Raven Guard are all one color. 😉

Second, I trying to wrap my head around what your trying to say. Somehow if a model overlaps its base or has no base, that any extra bitz that stick out will somehow affect my ability move in combat? Lol wut? Naw, that's not how it works (seems like people have already said why).

And none of you, myself included, are good enough to be playing at level where the understanding the rules interaction of this corner case scenario, and any interpretation of it, matters. If it comes up in a casual game at ordo or a local tournament,  ehhh screw it. If it comes up at nova or lvo then a judge can handle it.

[Nathanvoodoo]

Wow, this thread gets me super pumped to play in the League.