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Lyraeus

New/Returning players: Important Video on Close Combat

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1 hour ago, Nathanvoodoo said:

Wow, this thread gets me super pumped to play in the League.

Don't let anything that happens on the internet affect your want to play people in real life. As even Peter said, in a real game he wouldn't ask an opponent to follow that interpretation.

I don't argue with people at the table (for the most part) in real games, I just let it go and keep moving the game along.

TLDR? We argue here so we don't have to argue at the table.

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6 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

First off if your trying to pull this ...stuff off on Pax, your a... butthole. Never meet the guy, but I definitely ain't going to pull out the this rules lawyering, sketchy at best rules interpretation on him if I'm playing him. He's already going to be grumpy cause my Blood Angels and Raven Guard are all one color.

Several things.

First, Thank you very much for coming to my aid.

Second, @peter.cosgrove is actually a great guy. You'd probably like him if you met him. But yes, we get into these stupid-long debates about what the rules really mean. The debates are unpleasant, but the person is a great guy, which is part of why they go on for so long.

Third, my point with the video is that the video is about found "exploits" in the rules and using them as normal parts of the game. When you use the rules outside of common use, you quite often enter into these stupid-long debates. The debates are unpleasant, which is why I described it as teaching players to play in an unpleasant way. Refering to the "rules lawyering"  as "advanced rules" is a recipe for trouble as well. Definitely fine to use in a tournament, where winning is all that matters, and that is the group that the video is made for, tournament players. 

Forth, if I play and I'm grumpy, it won't be because of your paint. It annoys me, but not enough to affect my mood in a noticable way. If I am grumpy when we play, probably I was grumpy before I arrived. If you could give me a heads up that I'm being grumpy, it might help, as I'm not always aware that I am grumpy (often it just seems like everyone is very disagreeable today). Probably means I'm dehydrated, hungry, or sleepy, two of which I can easily fix if I notice the problem.

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I just want to add silly 3d space... if the hulls were more similar to bases, ie rectangular, the dread could never get his base under the raider in the first place and this would not be an issue!

 

If I was playing more competitively all of my tanks would have ablative armor that guarded the treads and prevented bases from being under my tank. So it always occupied the full channel of its hull and required the most models to trap it. 

 

If I found myself charged by cosgrove he better go base to base with his charge move or I'm interrupting to prevent this very niche tactic. 

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2 hours ago, Nathanvoodoo said:

Wow, this thread gets me super pumped to play in the League.

How many of the "combatants" in this thread are playing in the league? This prolly won't even come up! Having these conversations though helps to just avoid the gotcha moments. I win best sports regularly but get into these sorts of conversations out of game. In game I usually cave asap assuming the person I'm playing does not read technical writing and to keep the game moving... after the fact I want to figure out what is right and make sure everybody knows so there are less gotcha moments. 

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13 minutes ago, VonVilkee said:

How many of the "combatants" in this thread are playing in the league? This prolly won't even come up! Having these conversations though helps to just avoid the gotcha moments. I win best sports regularly but get into these sorts of conversations out of game. In game I usually cave asap assuming the person I'm playing does not read technical writing and to keep the game moving... after the fact I want to figure out what is right and make sure everybody knows so there are less gotcha moments. 

giphy.gif

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2 hours ago, Nathanvoodoo said:

Wow, this thread gets me super pumped to play in the League.

Hahaha, yea, seems super mean and un fun eh? 

Guess the road to good intentions still leads to hell. 

 

Anywho, no one in the league is playing like @SPaceORK says. That was just Pax's example. Though I do take offense at him saying I don't understand... I have been devouring all the videos and podcasts I can of high level games (ITC top 20 and better, thank you BIFPOD Charityhammer) so I have the theory down. Just need the practice 

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29 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Third, my point with the video is that the video is about found "exploits" in the rules and using them as normal parts of the game. When you use the rules outside of common use, you quite often enter into these stupid-long debates. The debates are unpleasant, which is why I described it as teaching players to play in an unpleasant way. Refering to the "rules lawyering"  as "advanced rules" is a recipe for trouble as well. Definitely fine to use in a tournament, where winning is all that matters, and that is the group that the video is made for, tournament players. 

False. It's not a rules exploit. Exploitation means it hasn't been addressed or was not intended. GW has fixed many things that were not indended. This is not one of them. The Heroic Intervention is used at high levels for characters to avoid overwatch by units like knights. 

TLDR: The rule works as intended. 

21 minutes ago, VonVilkee said:

How many of the "combatants" in this thread are playing in the league? 

*raises hand*

All but Peter and SPaceORK I believe 

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Just now, Lyraeus said:

False. It's not a rules exploit. Exploitation means it hasn't been addressed or was not intended. GW has fixed many things that were not indended. This is not one of them. The Heroic Intervention is used at high levels for characters to avoid overwatch by units like knights.

Your faith in GW's attentiveness to fixing rules problems is unfounded.

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33 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Your faith in GW's attentiveness to fixing rules problems is unfounded.

*looks at all the faq's within weeks of codex releases, looks at big faq's, looks at chapter approved* huh, it's like they did a lot of soul searching since 5th edition and care about the competitive side of the game. 

 

Am I expecting perfection? No, but this could of been addressed when they blocked fly from charging across screens and was not. So heroic intervention on units that haven't charged on your opponents turn is perfectly fine because it's up to my opponent to not put their model there which adds another layer to the screen

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TL;DR version:  I like reading this thread.  It's a lot like interpretations of criminal law.

 

Long version:

... I do NOT play right now (hoping to rectify that) and am still reading every post in this thread.

Situation A:  I play with player 1 and this comes up.  I have no clue about the "in the weeds" discussions like this thread, so whatever player 1 tells me I'm pretty sure I'll just accept as the rules and move on with the game.

Situation B:  I play with player 2 after Situation A.  This comes up in this game as well, whereupon my default will be what player 1's interpretation was.  I will then hope that player 2 agrees with player 1's interpretation.  If not, I will do my best to convey player 1's interpretation and either way the game must go on so I will seek guidance if player 1 and player 2 have different interpretations.

Situation C :  I'm in a competitive environment (tournament, for example).  I will default to what the judges say and then use this interpretation from then on.

 

Rules are open to certain interpretations and as this thread shows, a lot of folks have their interpretations.  I like how folks on this thread take the time to try and explain their positions (especially with supportive language of existing rule sets).

I played competitively A LOT in 3rd edition.  Are the 8th edition rules way more complex / technical / etc.?  I remember playing like four games in 7th edition with all the cards and such (thanks VonVilkee!) and I was confused as heck.

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2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Several things.

First, Thank you very much for coming to my aid.

Second, @peter.cosgrove is actually a great guy. You'd probably like him if you met him. But yes, we get into these stupid-long debates about what the rules really mean. The debates are unpleasant, but the person is a great guy, which is part of why they go on for so long.

Third, my point with the video is that the video is about found "exploits" in the rules and using them as normal parts of the game. When you use the rules outside of common use, you quite often enter into these stupid-long debates. The debates are unpleasant, which is why I described it as teaching players to play in an unpleasant way. Refering to the "rules lawyering"  as "advanced rules" is a recipe for trouble as well. Definitely fine to use in a tournament, where winning is all that matters, and that is the group that the video is made for, tournament players. 

Forth, if I play and I'm grumpy, it won't be because of your paint. It annoys me, but not enough to affect my mood in a noticable way. If I am grumpy when we play, probably I was grumpy before I arrived. If you could give me a heads up that I'm being grumpy, it might help, as I'm not always aware that I am grumpy (often it just seems like everyone is very disagreeable today). Probably means I'm dehydrated, hungry, or sleepy, two of which I can easily fix if I notice the problem.

Peter is the only Portland based Ordo member I have actually played. He was playing some glittered up Blood Angels and I was playing like 5 demon princes and typhus with regenerating poxwalkers. So I was was the one pushing the rules to the limit in that game.

Pax, that video had almost no found "exploits". That's how combat works in 8th. Is it what gw intended? Maybe not. It's far to tactically deep for me to think they did it on purpose, but they have had a bazillion faqs come out and havnt touched anything involved with it. Maybe... mayyyybe an argument could be made that the heroic intervention is not like how they wanted it, but honestly using it to its fullest potential isn't really that game breaking.

And I know you wouldn't actually be grumpy about my toy soldiers being painted incorrectly. You have made comments about how you wouldn't do it though so I gotta tease you a bit. Because of @Lyraeus I'm thinking of having 3 different kultures in a detachment of orks now, for a total of 4 different kultures in a 2k list. I think that may give you a bit of eye-twitching hatred for my WAAC playstyle. 🙂

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53 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

 

And I know you wouldn't actually be grumpy about my toy soldiers being painted incorrectly. You have made comments about how you wouldn't do it though so I gotta tease you a bit. Because of @Lyraeus I'm thinking of having 3 different kultures in a detachment of orks now, for a total of 4 different kultures in a 2k list. I think that may give you a bit of eye-twitching hatred for my WAAC playstyle. 🙂

Heh... You are welcome. Using blood axes for that extra CP to make up for that extra relic and getting a CP regen engine (on a 6 so meh) 

 

Remember, Orks travel in tribes and tribes have all sorts of mixes kulturs 

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1 hour ago, dalmer said:

TL;DR version:  I like reading this thread.  It's a lot like interpretations of criminal law.

 

Long version:

... I do NOT play right now (hoping to rectify that) and am still reading every post in this thread.

Situation A:  I play with player 1 and this comes up.  I have no clue about the "in the weeds" discussions like this thread, so whatever player 1 tells me I'm pretty sure I'll just accept as the rules and move on with the game.

Situation B:  I play with player 2 after Situation A.  This comes up in this game as well, whereupon my default will be what player 1's interpretation was.  I will then hope that player 2 agrees with player 1's interpretation.  If not, I will do my best to convey player 1's interpretation and either way the game must go on so I will seek guidance if player 1 and player 2 have different interpretations.

Situation C :  I'm in a competitive environment (tournament, for example).  I will default to what the judges say and then use this interpretation from then on.

 

Rules are open to certain interpretations and as this thread shows, a lot of folks have their interpretations.  I like how folks on this thread take the time to try and explain their positions (especially with supportive language of existing rule sets).

I played competitively A LOT in 3rd edition.  Are the 8th edition rules way more complex / technical / etc.?  I remember playing like four games in 7th edition with all the cards and such (thanks VonVilkee!) and I was confused as heck.

EXACTLY why I posted the video. That way player 1, 2, and 3 all have the base knowledge and there are less arguments from there

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5 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

Remember, Orks travel in tribes and tribes have all sorts of mixes kulturs 

Oh I know! My whole army was going to be lead by a freeboota of some sort. It's also why I paint a single yellow tooth whenever I can. Thinking something "Goldtooth" but in orky spelling.

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4 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

Oh I know! My whole army was going to be lead by a freeboota of some sort. It's also why I paint a single yellow tooth whenever I can. Thinking something "Goldtooth" but in orky spelling.

Guldtuth 

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2 hours ago, dalmer said:

...

I played competitively A LOT in 3rd edition.  Are the 8th edition rules way more complex / technical / etc.?  I remember playing like four games in 7th edition with all the cards and such (thanks VonVilkee!) and I was confused as heck.

Than 3rd, yeah I guess but there are more people discussing online so if we retroactively looked at them at the same level prolly not.

 

This edition is way easier than 7th you just have to ignore years of expectations that aren't there anymore. Directly towards, specific model placement, ranges, causality removal etc. They tried to remove the technicalities of previous editions and through the flexibility introduced new technicalities that are easily skimmed over when you are just excited to get in there and play. There will always be technicalities people designed this as a way to compete, one person's technicality is another's basic rule. <shrugs> it is more about reading the room and if you are a technical player <raises hand> dialing it back when playing those that aren't as in the thick of it. 

 

 

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Oh additional thought! 7th was more technical before game as all your rules were dependent on knowing they existed and building the list with specific sets of models. This edition allows for more flexibility in taking cool models and then in game doing powerful things or not as the case may be. I find it far easier to bring a really good list then mid game not use it as efficiently as it could be to make a better game for a baby seal of any stripe (newbie, returning player, or even just garage player).

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37 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

Oh I know! My whole army was going to be lead by a freeboota of some sort. It's also why I paint a single yellow tooth whenever I can. Thinking something "Goldtooth" but in orky spelling.

”Da Goldtoof,” is a relic in AoS (and the name I gave to my Ardboyz Boss, even before that relic came out.)

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37 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

Oh I know! My whole army was going to be lead by a freeboota of some sort. It's also why I paint a single yellow tooth whenever I can. Thinking something "Goldtooth" but in orky spelling.

What about badtoof? Or something, gold isn't valuable to orks so gold teeth would be "bad" also eludes too bad moons who are wealthier just some random thoughts. 

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1 hour ago, VonVilkee said:

What about badtoof? Or something, gold isn't valuable to orks so gold teeth would be "bad" also eludes too bad moons who are wealthier just some random thoughts. 

He acquired the taste for gold because of his dealings with the freeboota 'umies. He sees the shiny bits they have and want to emulate them. Plus teeth dont have the same purchasing power with humans as gold does.

1 hour ago, fluger said:

Well, I watched it and the using pile in to draw in more units is news to me!  Baller!

Excellent! That what that video was intended for! Now you have a new tool in your toolbox.

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