Random Thought Thread

[Duckman]

6 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Because if you EXPECT kindness, then it can't be kindness. They are just meeting your expectations, which isn't kind, rather, it's neutral. If society EXPECTS kindness, it's called "etiquette" and it ceases to be about kindness. It's just a rule that people follow. 

Kinda semantics, but there's truth in there too. Being kind (or cruel) requires behaving outside of the expected norm (as expected by either the observer or by society as a projected whole).

I hate to say it this way, Pax, but that is %$&@ and I think that attitude (which is very prevalent in the US) is part of what people use to justify indifference and negligence.

Kindness is not some touchy-feely concept like good and evil or light and dark where there is a continuum and your definition inherently depends on the local norm.  Kindness is "a : of a sympathetic or helpful nature."  Expecting you to notice that someone needs help carrying bags to the car in the grocery parking lot does not change the fact that doing so is kind.  Sure, you can pick some outlier cases where people try to argue that "I did him a kindness by reporting him as a drunk driver and getting him treatment," but trying to focus on that and ignoring the 95-99% of the daily cases where just pointing out to someone that they dropped a wallet or cash or something or helping someone carry something or open a door would make someone's day better is a cop-out.  Not everything has to be about life-changing events.  5-10 second interactions where you notice another person are incredibly important especially since there are hundreds or thousands more of them in your daily life.

Turn your sentence on its head.  What does it say about society if you are arguing that the decision not to make someone's day worse or simply let it become worse through inaction and instead ignoring them is "being sympathetic or helpful"?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Duckman said:

Turn your sentence on its head.  What does it say about society if you are arguing that the decision not to make someone's day worse or simply let it become worse through inaction and instead ignoring them is "being sympathetic or helpful"?

Has to do with the words you use. Sympathetic is something you could always be. Kindness requires acting outside of expectations. It is semantics, but that's why we have the different words.

Helpfulness can be a challenge, as perception can render that one a non-positive action. I like being helpful, but some people find it nosy that I notice they need the help, or they assume a motive that I lack, or they really want to do it themselves, or they believe that me offering help means I pity them, and so forth. More so, I've noticed that if you are helpful to fellow customers while you are in a business, they will assume you work there, and treat you as they would an employee (which varies from person to person). And depending on the help, many businesses aren't allowed to have helpful non-employees doing things that their employees would do, which may bother the employees.

And even though I like being helpful, I'm not always in a mood where I can be helpful. Sometimes inaction is better for everyone.

By the way, the above quote doesn't represent what I've been saying. I'm not promoting neutral behavior. Nor am I promoting inaction. I'm just pointing out the concept of kindness (or cruelty or happiness) requires behavior that is outside of the norm. Being always happy isn't happy, you are normal - you may have raised the bar on what is expected of normal, but being happy still requires a more impressive mood than your normal state. And the normal state is the mood you are usually in.

Regarding expectations, I do think that many people expect too much and it makes their world appear dark and unpleasant. I do this too. It makes movies bad, makes society look like apathetic jerks, and so forth. Not helpful. And since having those expectations not met sours your mood, it can even be counterproductive as your tainted mood will likely infect others with similar bad moods. Having too high standards ruins reality.

[VonVilkee]

If you put bacon on a vegetarian patty for a burger is it still a "veggie" burger?

 

Ps it is delicious either way. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

That depends.  If you put bacon on a turkey patty, is it still a turkey burger?

Also delish, especially so with avocado or guac.

[InfestedKerrigan]

That is, it is still a "vegetarian burger," although the meal no longer meets the dietary restrictions to be vegetarian. 

[Munkie]

On 7/7/2018 at 1:37 PM, VonVilkee said:

If you put bacon on a vegetarian patty for a burger is it still a "veggie" burger?

I'd call it a "Crops 'n Chops Burger", were I a signature burger makin' man.

[WestRider]

I wonder if anyone has made a bong out of Sector Mechanicus parts yet.

[InfestedKerrigan]

8 hours ago, WestRider said:

I wonder if anyone has made a bong out of Sector Mechanicus parts yet.

Now that you mention it.  I'd want to recast parts in high temp food grade silicone, others in metal, and a couple in glass.  For safety.

[Guest]

We should do a poker night and use official GW bases as chips. Then you keep the bases you win.

[InfestedKerrigan]

2 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

We should do a poker night and use official GW bases as chips. Then you keep the bases you win.

GW bits as a whole. Space marine torsos ain't worth a nickle, but sitting on a dozen legs is baller

[Guest]

Buffy is 41 now...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Michelle_Gellar#2010s

[Guest]

On 7/7/2018 at 8:11 AM, Duckman said:

I hate to say it this way, Pax, but that is %$&@ and I think that attitude (which is very prevalent in the US) is part of what people use to justify indifference and negligence.

Kindness is not some touchy-feely concept like good and evil or light and dark where there is a continuum and your definition inherently depends on the local norm.  Kindness is "a : of a sympathetic or helpful nature."  Expecting you to notice that someone needs help carrying bags to the car in the grocery parking lot does not change the fact that doing so is kind.  Sure, you can pick some outlier cases where people try to argue that "I did him a kindness by reporting him as a drunk driver and getting him treatment," but trying to focus on that and ignoring the 95-99% of the daily cases where just pointing out to someone that they dropped a wallet or cash or something or helping someone carry something or open a door would make someone's day better is a cop-out.  Not everything has to be about life-changing events.  5-10 second interactions where you notice another person are incredibly important especially since there are hundreds or thousands more of them in your daily life.

What you are describing for examples is Etiquette.

Quote

et·i·quette

ˈedəkət,ˈedəˌket/

noun

noun: etiquette; plural noun: etiquettes

1. the customary code of polite behavior in society or among members of a particular profession or group.

Putting lost items in the lost and found, getting drunk drivers treatment, holding doors, carrying stuff, it's all etiquette. A set of polite behaviors in society.

and for clarity:

Quote

po·lite

pəˈlīt/

adjective

adjective: polite; comparative adjective: politer; superlative adjective: politest

1. having or showing behavior that is respectful and considerate of other people.

There's no helpful or sympathetic requirement here. It's not kindness. Using turn signals is polite. What you are describing is called etiquette. 

 

Kindness is:

Quote

kind·ness

ˈkīn(d)nəs/

noun

noun: kindness

1. the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.

Etiquette includes being considerate, but doesn't require being generous or friendly. I can hold the door for you out of consideration for the things you are carrying without being generous or friendly.

And more clarity, Generous is:

Quote

gen·er·ous

ˈjen(ə)rəs/

adjective

adjective: generous

1. (of a person) showing a readiness to give more of something, as money or time, than is strictly necessary or expected.

So if I'm expected to be kind, then I'm expected to generous (because kindness is generousity+friendly+considerate). But if generosity is expected, I can't be generous because I can't give more than is expected. And if I'm not able to be generous then I'm not kind, just friendly and considerate.

In other words, you can "expect" Etiquette, but kindness can't be expected.

And for extra clarity:

Quote

ex·pect

ikˈspekt/

verb

verb: expect; 3rd person present: expects; past tense: expected; past participle: expected; gerund or present participle: expecting

1. regard (something) as likely to happen.

Expectations are a "touchy feelly" light and dark sort of thing, inherently. It's all based on what you think will likely happen.

[Duckman]

The other half of the definition of generous is "more than strictly necessary".  You've had to dig three definitions in to find something that even vaguely hints at expectations and the example I gave was carrying things, not holding a door, which given you struggle to hold a door is clearly more than you deem necessary.

Look, I get that you want to define every word in a touchy-feely way that morphs to your worldview but we already had a conversation about that and in every conversation I don't see anyone siding with the view that language is strictly an internal concept and that you are free to interpret words in any old way that suits.  Even I am willing to grant that you are the sole arbiter of the context in which you read or hear something but that doesn't give carte blanche to redefine vocabulary.

Clearly I am not going to convince you of either argument so I quit worrying about it.

 

For what it is worth, and I have said this to women who get outraged at me for holding the door for them, even holding a door has nothing to do with etiquette and everything to do with being helpful to people who might have their hands full or need an extra hand.  If this were about etiquette then it would be all about the expectations, "the customary code of behavior in society".  The whole point, as you call out, is that kindness is *not* about social norms and expectations.  It is about being sympathetic to others and offering them assistance, expected or otherwise...  Being sympathetic, considerate, generous, friendly, helpful.  Of all those words, only a part of the definition of generous involves expectation.

 

And as another side note, modern etiquette, as I think both of us have mentioned is *not* holding doors, carrying things for others, pointing out dropped cash or credit cards.  In short it is, in this country, anything but considerate of others.

[Munkie]

Do you suppose "what in tarnation" is a butchered shortening of "what in the entire nation?"

*edit*

Just looked it up, it's not. 

But it should be.

[WestRider]

Hipster Slaanesh: "Yeah, I have a pretty obscure gender. You probably haven't heard of it."

[InfestedKerrigan]

Only you can hear me when I say harder, faster! Hold me closer, Tiny Dancer. - Earth 2 Elton John 

[InfestedKerrigan]

That is to say, I find censorship of that nature ridiculous.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Metalocalypse is behind a locked door on Hulu. *guitar feedback* brutal.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Too much of "Adult Animation" is handled by the same handful of people.

[Guest]

Anyone else watch Spaceballs and find themselves disappointed that their spaceballs merchandise isn't really for sale?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNZove4OTtI

 

[InfestedKerrigan]

Is it better to pay the Mech 700, or the shop 100 and do it yourself? Tomorrow shall tell.

[WestRider]

Netflix keeps trying to get me to watch Ever After High. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't have nearly as much drug humour as I'd like. "...and there, at the end of the rainbow, they found the pot of Acapulco Gold, and lived high ever after."

[Guest]

23 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Is it better to pay the Mech 700, or the shop 100 and do it yourself? Tomorrow shall tell.

Depends if the higher price can yield a benefit just because it is higher. Odd logic, but seems to be common in our would.  

Kinda like having a gun in your purse because it makes the police look harder for a lost purse...Happened to my Aunt. They found the purse in mere days (which is very good for police in finding lost/stollen things). She did have a concealed weapons permit.

[InfestedKerrigan]

10 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Depends if the higher price can yield a benefit just because it is higher. Odd logic, but seems to be common in our would.  

Kinda like having a gun in your purse because it makes the police look harder for a lost purse...Happened to my Aunt. They found the purse in mere days (which is very good for police in finding lost/stollen things). She did have a concealed weapons permit.

I'm replacing my Clutch set in my car. I have never done a major repair to a car. So far, I have spent about 300 on tools and parts. Gotta keep it under 675 to "come out ahead" not including labor. But it's experience. Next time I need it done, it'll only cost me the 150 in parts. Did I need to spend 20 on a breaker bar? Could I have gotten the one for 10? Probably, but the one I got is twice as long. Leverage is a life saver. And it doubles as a bat. ^_^

[Guest]

Ever wonder if life is like an RPG in that you have a limited number of skill points to spend? Like the above, does learning how to fix your own car limit your ability to learn other things? Probably not, but weird to think about.