Pinkerton Planetary Defense Militia

[Lord Hanaur]

How many people have played knights and been wiped/tabled or cleanly beaten? What list were you running?

I had one model left in my last game against them.  There were only two Knights in that list.

 

I played Eldar.

[Lord Hanaur]

So OFCC is banning a codex from competition? That seems a bit harsh.

 

As for "Moonwalking" them; that comment doesn't assist with discussion IMHO. Seriously, that comment seems like it is meant to troll Knight players more than foster an engaging discussion. Would that mean a tank based IG army has to drive in reverse? That would be just plain silly.

 

Making such snide comments doesn't put a positive vibe out there for players. There are people that spent a lot of time, money, and energy buying, building, and painting an Imperial Knight army. Griping at them doesn't help foster a positive community. 

 

Nor does banning the codex from events (And to clarify, I am using "ban" to describe the act of prohibiting army rosters which feature a Household Detachment from the IK codex. This is an important distinction, as this is what separates the IK codex from other codices that feature super-heavy lords of war.). As all this does is create an atmosphere where players dare not get excited about the new hotness, lest it become seen a too "OP" even though it is noted that they are "... scarier on paper than they actually are effective on the board ".

 

I mean, what is next? No IG tank armies (unless you drive backwards)? No space marine super friends biker armies (unless Salamanders is the only chapter tactic used) ? Only one monstrous creature model for 'nids? No Eldar wraith based armies (And a limit of 2 special weapons per jetbike squad)? Necrons only have an army wide FNP instead of re-animation protocols? 

its an event that is comp'd.  It's the identity of OFCC.  So there are 100 tournaments out there that will allow virtually anything legal, but even the ITC ones have limits.

 

To attend OFCC you have to accept that reality and know going in that it is all about trying to have the closest matchups possible.  Certain lists make that kind of matchup impossible or shall I say, very unlikely.  In normal tournaments it would be expected that you do your utmost to field a competitive force but at OFCC, it's more about the social contract.

 

I cannot describe it better to you but Pretre wasn't being flippant at Vonvilkee, so much as exhibiting that a guy like Vonvilkee who has a lot to be proud of in his sportsmanship might be allowed (tongue in cheek) to play a harder list if he does goofy things with it.  Because that DOEs factor in at OFCC.  Not enough perhaps for Pretre to literally allow it but enough for Pretre to joke about it.

 

Anywho, I think Pretre meant no offense.

[VonVilkee]

I did want to take any "spare points" I had and give my opponents a single Melta Bombs squad. And let that model look out sir on a 2+. Kinda like a suicide force that knows all it has to do is sneak up!

 

I'm all for a nice little boost to each of my opponents. I'd totally rock armor 12/12/12 for my knights and leave the rest the same as my list...

 

I love my cool dreamforge leviathans so cool. Wouldn't stand a chance in the open and games would actually be worse without the flexibility of match making... But what ever will be well be.

 

I understand the reality of precedence and perception.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Knights are a very Rock Paper Scissors list. They either win it all or lose it all. Ofcc team event can balance one knight list per team as it would be likely one player from each team would have tools to play against Knights. I understand though they can cause a lot of bad match ups.

 

Bump for dreamforge models, so cool. They are giant action figures.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Quick pic of my first Knight (Lancelot?) standing behind a Daemon Prince and two Helbrutes.

[InfestedKerrigan]

At 1850, I was thinking:

 

Castigator

Acheron

Errant

Gallant

Gallant

 

With Mark of Omni and Sanctuary going on the Warlord.  At 1850, I can't fit the first two and have a total of 5 Knights without taking Twin Gallants, but it doesn't leave enough points to make the Errant a Crusader.  

[VonVilkee]

Can only have a single relic! /Tongue in cheek on Quit giving them a bad name. /Tongue in cheek off.

 

Seriously tho big problem is unfamiliarity by about mid game all my opponents start figuring it out. It is about sacrificing units to control the board. The guns aren't that good stick to cover and take a few assaults on the chin. Once my opponents realize they just need to not be in front of them the wheels come off. I'm finding a single knight with support is actually way stronger than 3 with little help. It is totally a perception thing and I'll figure it out whatever the way the wind blows.

[generalripphook]

I'd rather fight 3 knights than 6 lemun ruses

[InfestedKerrigan]

Can only have a single relic! /Tongue in cheek on Quit giving them a bad name. /Tongue in cheek off.

 

Seriously tho big problem is unfamiliarity by about mid game all my opponents start figuring it out. It is about sacrificing units to control the board. The guns aren't that good stick to cover and take a few assaults on the chin. Once my opponents realize they just need to not be in front of them the wheels come off. I'm finding a single knight with support is actually way stronger than 3 with little help. It is totally a perception thing and I'll figure it out whatever the way the wind blows.

 

Crap, didn't notice that.  Well, that is pretty shiitake.  So I drop Sanctuary and take Melta Guns on the Errant and Gallants.  

 

I have a hard time seeing 3-5 Knights Dominating the field.  Albeit, I haven't played against it, so I can't speak from experience.  I just want Giant Fighting Robots on the field, and usable in "normal" games of 40k. 

[pretre]

I have a hard time seeing 3-5 Knights Dominating the field.  Albeit, I haven't played against it, so I can't speak from experience.  I just want Giant Fighting Robots on the field, and usable in "normal" games of 40k. 

Most 5 knight games are go big or go home (massacre or massacred), from what I've heard. Bryan would be able to chime in since he played 5 knights at a lot of competitive events.

[Bosco]

I can't claim to have experience against knights (I rarely get out to play outside of a pretty small group), but on the perception front I feel qualified to speak my opinion on facing multiples of them; they're pretty scary looking.  Especially so at (my own, and others I've spoken with) perceived army power level expectations for an OFCC army list.  

 

When many players still haven't embraced superheavies or LoW's beyond named specific iconic characters, the idea of facing multiples of them is instantly off-putting and sets a bad tone for the game, even with the best of intentions or reality of their limitations.  To some degree, they're like flyers were (and rarely still are); facing one isn't likely game-breaking since there is still an otherwise traditional army across the table to interact with, but your first time playing against 'Cron Air (6th) is going to leave a bad taste in your mouth in short order.  OFCC doesn't seem like the environment to force that experience on someone else, even if it is something they shouldn't really struggle with too badly.  

 

In last year's OFCC I faced a Khorne Lord of Skulls in my 5th game.  It was huge and looked scary on paper, I decided early on that running away or feeding it a couple sacrificial 'bread-crumb' units was the way to go and that worked out relatively well since otherwise I was going to have to dedicate a huge part of my army to killing it.  It got to eat a few units and participate while I got to kite it a bit and otherwise keep the meat of my list focused on the more traditional units in my opponent's list.  It was a great game and my opponent got my favorite opponent pin.  If there had been a second or third such model/unit/super-heavy, avoidance wouldn't have been an option and it would have been a decidedly un-fun exercise in putting models back in the box while two seemingly un-killable horrors dominated the game with a couple backup dancers doing the macarana in the backfield for objectives.

 

 

If you're like myself, OFCC is like a magical unicorn that wants to give you a ride around the park once a year while you have a beer and 1997 Kathy Ireland gives you a shoulder rub and laughs at your bad jokes; you just don't want to risk something ruining that event.  Two solid days of friendly, fluffy, balanced games in a hall full of people who are there for all the right reasons; celebrating the hobby and having fun.  

 

Running a list that has some glaring weaknesses (and I agree that multiple knights likely do have weaknesses) but is largely potentially/perceived-as untouchable by many units in the game for a 'traditional' opponent/list is likely going to be seen as messing with that unicorn ride by more people than not.

[pretre]

Any extreme list that puts most of your army without any real use is going to be a problem. And great post.

[InfestedKerrigan]

 

Most 5 knight games are go big or go home (massacre or massacred), from what I've heard. Bryan would be able to chime in since he played 5 knights at a lot of competitive events.

 

 

Isn't that a problem shtick armies tend to have?  I view it as a Deathstar unit comprising of the entire points allotted.  I'm expecting to lose hard and lose often with the list.  With Objective Secured, I could see more games ending with 2 Knights alive, holding something, with 700-1200 points of the Enemies forces still alive happening often enough, as well.  Again, haven't played with or against, yet, so purely rose colored speculation.    

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

They rarely go down without trading unit to take them down. As their death is spectacular and tends to clean a large portion of the table of any models.

 

That is often not understood until seen, I have seen them stumble onto an opponents side and stumble onto mine lay waste to that group.

 

3 on the table can be extremely intense, and now that they have skyfire they mitigate one of their weakness.

 

The worst match they can face is a drop pod, unless they took intercept formation.

 

You can't compare them to a death star as many tools to tackle a death star are different than what you need to deal with Knights, as tools that kill 2++ might not scratch av 12++

[generalripphook]

But the beauty of taking 3 knights is that you still have points to take infantry to blast.

 

And honestly I feel like everyone always underequips for anti armor.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Which is a good reason why ofcc is not a good place for large detachments of knights

[Guest]

Until the ITC decides to also nerf melee D, catastrophic damage D, and stomp, the Imperial Knights are going to stay on the questionable army list. That, or just add the vehicle damage table back to super heavy vehicles....

 

As for thinking of them as Deathstars, they are dirt cheap deathstars without any real ways to degrade them without destroying them. If they took damage via the vehicle damage table, you could balance them by forcing them to snap, or immobilizing them, but the all or nothing on the destruction puts them in a deathstar class of their own. They functionally fight at full strength until destroyed.

 

Between stomp and D melee, they can't be tarpitted too easy, either.

 

 

And honestly I feel like everyone always underequips for anti armor.

On the one hand, I totally agree here. On the other hand, most anti-armor solutions are completely inadequate against imperial knights.

 

So, in example, devastator marines, being a very normal AT unit. My SM devastators have up to 4 heavy weapons (in this example, lascannnons). They cannot move and fire, so the facing based invulnerable save is very much a hinderance. Of my shooting, I'm looking at ~3 hits. of those ~2 pens. Now, against a non-super heavy, 2 pens at +1 to the damage table, so I can explode, but my ideal is to remove a few hull points and force my opponent to snap on future turns. A 4+ cover or invulnerable will knock it to 1 pen, but that's okay as the snap will nerf them enough to allow my army to close and deal with the enemy vehicle with other weapons on later turns. Snaps nerf the enemy vehicle from nasty blast weapons and otherwise impair their shooting.

 

The imperial knight, on the other hand, cannot be forced to snap via my devastator squad. I have to completely destroy them, or my shooting is wasted. 1 or 2 HP removed via a 150pt unit is a waste when my target has 6 HP for their dirt cheap cost.

 

In assault, I run into a similar issue, as they have both a D melee weapon at I4, and a stomp attack at I1. Most melee AT weapons fight at I1, so I have to endure D melee weapon attacks prior to being able to use my AT melee weapons. A reasonable melee AT unit cannot endure the D weapon attacks and stomp attacks. Most armies cannot cope with this, and were never intended to face this many super heavies in low point games (aka, under 3k).

 

The issue with imperial knights is the jump from walker to super heavy walker is far too great for their point cost. I can't reasonably kill them with traditional AT units. I have to get a dedicated unit or two, which is a complete waste in games with no enemy imperial knights.

[pretre]

I, on the other hand, almost always have plenty of solutions for knights (SOB love fighting knights). I still think they are an extreme list though.

[Guest]

I, on the other hand, almost always have plenty of solutions for knights (SOB love fighting knights). I still think they are an extreme list though.

What, you mean that army with almost mandatory melta guns and invulnerable saves on everything....?

[pretre]

What, you mean that army with almost mandatory melta guns and invulnerable saves on everything....?

Exactly. :)

[Lord Hanaur]

Stomp is particularly an odious thing.  People misread that rules section, which on its own can sour a game.  Even when they read it completely,  the stomps themselves are just heinous.

 

Giving them anti-air now is just...  I dunno what to say about that, that would be pleasant to read.  Like i said, i faced two in my last match against them and had one model left on the table...  and I had some D weapons to sling around!  That's the scary part.  It wasn't like I didn't have anything that could hurt the Knights.  I had some shots I could take. It just wasn't enough.  Not nearly enough.

[Sugarlessllama]

So for me as a player, I chafe a bit when it comes to restricting Knights. Mostly because, I am a fluff based player. I spent quite a bit of time, money, and energy to buy, assemble, and paint my Imperial Knights. I took the time to write up an Index Questoris article on Bolter and Chainsword about my Imperial Knight house. I designed a custom crest. I printed and applied said crest as custom decals.

 

I'm very proud of the labor of love that my custom Imperial Knight house is.

 

And since then I have been told "no" at every turn when I try to play them as a stand alone army.

 

To say that spending $420 on model kits just be not be allowed to play them is frustrating, would be an understatement. And from the tenor of this thread, there doesn't seem to be an end in sight to this. 

 

And no, I'm interested in the "hardcore" tournaments, because 40K is not a tournament game. I have Warmachine for that.

 

I play 40K because I am able to write, and create my own custom armies with unique lore. I love playing my custom Space Marine chapter. They are a ton of fun. But I would also like to play my custom Imperial Knight house. 

[Lord Hanaur]

And you can do that at 99 other tournaments.

[pretre]

Not to mention casual games, leagues, etc. Just not the OFCC Team Event. Which is, again, one event at a huge Weekend of Geekery.

[Sugarlessllama]

When I say I have been told no at every turn. I mean even in casual games. And the other tournaments are "hardcore" tournaments. Filled with unnamed hq models, and unpainted figures. 40K is not balanced for honest competitive play, which is makes it so attractive as a lore based wargame. 

 

When I want a honest of goodness competitive play I play Warmachine. 

 

When I am interested in seeing a giant stompy robot nuked in melee by white haired zealots, I play 40K.