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Frostgrave...so good!


PourSpelur

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Yeah we are doing a KoW league Tuesday nights, but maybe we could fit a frostgrave game in after? Warhammer_T and a couple of my buddies are looking to play every other Saturday, maybe at the Portland Game Store (though I don't think they have enough terrain for this). I will let you guys know when that develops more.

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

First read through rules. I have to say game is simple and very little rules disputes that I can see.

 

The whole caster death or miss next match seems kind of rough which I like. I like the random encounters a lot but is very hard to have that many models to be able to take advantage of it.

 

I find it weird but kind of refreshing there is no immediate gain to "winning". Even losing you can come out ahead. The worst things that can happen is death, which is pretty bad but say you have a bad match up commit to grab and go two items and you can retreat from there.

 

The game is in its infancy and needs a lot more variety releases for scenario play. Doesn't seem like you need too much in the way of expansions the simple combat system isn't really inviting to have more more variety in the way of hired hands.

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Thaw of the Lich Lord has shipped!

 

image_zpsti0gmqiq.png

 

 

Below is an synopsis posted by people who have received their Nickstarter goodies.

 

Crowmaster comes with a Blood Crow that moves and acts separately, but you need to add a special building to your HQ before you can include one in your warband.

 

Lich Lord power level; one word, scary. High level necromancer with many spells, most improved (Bone Dart on 5+), and 25 health. Plus he comes with an equally scary retinue, that turn up with him even when he's a random encounter.

...

 

Another thing about the Crowmaster is that you essentially get to field 2 figures for one warband slot, which is nice. Also, if the crow gets killed but the master survives, the crow gets replaced for free at the end of the game. The Bard gives a bonus to willpower for nearby friendly figures. Javelineer is a bit meh - poor at fighting and shooting but cheap. The Mule can carry 3 (iirc) items and exchange items with nearby friendly figures which opens up a lot of possibilities of you are lucky enough to have more items than available item slots in your warband.

 

Death Cultists are weak in all respects (stats-wise not the sprues) but some of the other creatures are downright nasty.

 

The new magic items bring in quite a few new features and seem to be well thought out.

 

The scenarios all look interesting with environmental effects, special terrain, monsters and so on.

 

For those wishing to get a head start on preparing terrain for the new scenarios, here is what you will need:

 

At least one wrecked ship and preferably a few more smaller ships or boats.

A cart or wagon.

A cauldron.

A throne.

6 doorways.

4 pillars.

The strange one is a 6 inch diameter wheel (think something like a bicycle wheel lying on its side but made of bones!). I'll probably make one with 6 or 12 straight sides rather then being truly circular, mounted about an inch above the ground with a few spokes coming out from the central mounting.*

You could also make 2 3 feet by 6 inches sections of riverbank if you really wanted to but this isn't at all essential.

 

Monster-wise some of the scenarios require Armoured Skeletons, Frost Wraiths, Death Cultists, 2 Banshees, the Ghoul King, a zombie troll, and another uses 6 Ragnifiers (hybrid reindeer beast thingies).

 

There are probably a few things I missed out but those are the ones I noticed on first reading.

 

* if you wanted to go the whole hog you could get some 'casualty' figures (Gripping Beast make some) that could be tied/strapped to the wheel!

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

Yeah I'm thinking I might try to run one after necromunda. I am already mapping out some ideas. Very simple game once we get the rules down games should last no more than an hour.

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From Frostgrave's author's blog:

 

One of the most common requests I have received from fans of Frostgrave is for some kind of ‘captain’ to help lead their warbands. Thankfully, this is something I also wanted for the game. Sellsword presents new rules for hiring captains, a soldier who can choose his own weapons and armour, who can gain experience up to a limit, and who can learn ‘tricks of the trade’. (Not exactly skills, you see, but I’ll leave that discussion for another day). Of course, captains want a bit more than the mere retainer paid to other soldiers… Sellsword will also include three new scenarios, all of which have some sort of magical ‘limitation’ in them, so that wizards have to rely a bit more on their soldiers in those situations.

 

The focus of Frostgrave has always been about the wizards, and that is not something I want to change. Most soldiers will always be ‘extras’ as far as the rules are concerned. But the idea of a wizard having a trusted swordsman friend is just too good for me to ignore. Hopefully players will find the little bit of added complexity a worthwhile trade off.

 

I won’t say too much about Dark Alchemy at this point, except that it will focus on potions, scrolls, and grimoires. I have never been completely happy with the rules for these magical treasures, and with a lot more time to think about them and hearing a lot of people voicing various opinions, I think this will be a good opportunity to review and tweak those rules, as well as introducing a lot of fun new magical items!

http://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/frostgrave-state-of-play-and-spoilers.html?m=1

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

I'm thinking of running a league in pdx area and will be altering the campaign rules. I will need to play test them a bit and seek feedback (also just need to play too). I appreciate your ideas coyote and also bad karmas post. I want to expand in these and should be posting up my thoughts hopefully soon.

 

Goal is to start one February/March

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I'm thinking of running a league in pdx area and will be altering the campaign rules. I will need to play test them a bit and seek feedback (also just need to play too). I appreciate your ideas coyote and also bad karmas post. I want to expand in these and should be posting up my thoughts hopefully soon.

 

After playing a couple of games I made some tweaks to my house rules. Below is the current version.

 

 

Koyote's House Rules

 

GAME LENGTH & VICTORY CONDITIONS

The cataclysmic spell that doomed the ancient city of Felstad has waned, but the tumultuous skies above Frostgrave remain unpredictable and lethal.  Propelled by hurricane winds, ensorcelled cyclones periodically blast the city with snow and subzero temperatures.  The arrival of the sorcerous storms cannot be predicted by magical or mundane means, so those who venture into the accursed city must be forever alert to even the slightest change in the weather.  For when the temperature drops and the winds begin to howl, any living creature that does not take shelter is doomed to join the ranks of the city’s frozen dead.

 

Random Game Length:

The Random Game Length rules determine game length, unless:

• the scenario’s rules determine game length; or

• the last Treasure Token is carried off the table; or

• no model from any warband remains on the table; or

• all of the models on the table (excluding uncontrolled Creatures) belong to a single warband

 

Unless one of the aforementioned conditions occurs, at the end of Turn 5 the last player to activate a model rolls a D20. On a roll of 6-20 the weather holds and a 6th Turn is played.  On a roll of 1-5 the scenario ends.

 

At the end of Turn 6, roll a die.  On a roll of 16-20 the temperature begins to drop, but there is still time, play a 7th Turn.  On a roll of 1-15 the scenario ends.

 

 At the end of Turn 7, the winds begin to howl and the warbands must flee the battlefield or perish.  The game ends.

 

 

Victory Conditions:

Unless the scenario states otherwise, the warband that recovers the most Treasure Tokens wins the scenario.  If both warbands recover the same number of Treasure Tokens, the game is a draw.  In multi-player games, if two or more warbands ‘tie’ for the most Treasure Tokens recovered, then these warbands ‘draw’ and the remaining warbands lose the scenario.

 

Carried Treasure Tokens:

If a model on the table is carrying a Treasure Token when the scenario ends, the Treasure Token is dropped.  For the purpose of calculating experience points for ‘Exploits’ (SEE below), a Treasure Token dropped in this way counts as being ‘held,’ but for all other purposes this Treasure Token is treated as an unrecovered Treasure Token.

 

Last Warband Standing:

If a scenario ends because all of the models on the table (excluding uncontrolled Creatures) belong to a single warband and one or more unrecovered Treasure Tokens remain on the table, then the remaining warband recovers one of the unrecovered Treasure Tokens (chosen by the player controlling the remaining warband).  This Treasure Token is treated as if it was recovered during the course of game play and it is removed from the table before experience points for ‘Exploits’ are calculated.

 

 

UNDERDOG BONUSES

 

What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger:

”I love being the underdog, sometimes.” –The last words of the wizard, Graaver The Wise

 

Immediately after deployment, each player with a Wizard on the table declares his or her Wizard’s level.  If the levels differ, then each player, in turn, determines his or her individual Level Difference by subtracting his or her Wizard’s level from the level of the highest level Wizard on the table. Next, each player consults the following chart to determine if his or her Wizard will receive bonus experience points at the end of the game.

 

Level Difference :  0-5 = No bonus experience points

Level Difference :  6-10 = 100 bonus experience points* to lower level Wizard

Level Difference :  11+ = 200 bonus experience points* to lower level Wizard

*Add another 100 experience points to this bonus if the lower level Wizard wins the scenario

 

This bonus applies to only those Wizards who directly participating in the scenario.  If a Wizard ‘sits out’ the scenario because of an injury from the Survival Table, the absent Wizard cannot qualify for this bonus nor is the absent Wizard’s level taken into account when determining Level Difference.

 

The gods love children and fools:

As the members of the defeated warband limp back to its base they stumble upon a strongbox half buried in snow and rubble. When the strongbox is pried open, the disheartened warriors see something that makes them smile.

 

If a Wizard qualifies for an experience point bonus from the ’What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger’ rule AND the qualifying Wizard’s warband lost the scenario, then the defeated warband is granted one additional roll on the Treasure table.  The defeated warband receives this additional roll, regardless of how many Treasure Tokens it recovered during the scenario.  The defeated warband does not gain experience points for this additional roll on the Treasure table, nor is it used to determine the scenario’s victory conditions.

 

Please note that a ‘draw’ does not count as a ‘loss’.

 

'You scoundrel!':

“That scoundrel deserves to be kicked in the butt by a jackass, and I’m just the one to do it.” – Merchant Prince, Hugo the Muleskinner

 

If the player who began the scenario controlling the highest level Wizard on the table believes that an opponent did not make a sincere attempt to win the scenario or at least play to a draw, then he or she may veto (i.e. cancel) one or both of the scoundrel Wizard’s underdog bonuses.   In the event that two or more Wizard’s qualify as the highest level Wizard, then the decision by only one of these players is sufficient to cancel underdog bonuses.

 

 

EXPERIENCE POINTS

Casting 1

The Wizard or Apprentice casts a spell from his or her own school: 10 xp

The Wizard or Apprentice casts a spell from an aligned school: 15 xp

The Wizard or Apprentice casts a spell from a neutral school: 20 xp

The Wizard or Apprentice casts a spell from an opposed school: 25 xp

 

‘Taking Out’ Enemy Models 2

Enemy Soldier: 15 xp

Enemy Apprentice: 30 xp

Enemy Wizard: 100 xp

 

‘Taking Out’ Creatures

Starting Health 01-05: 5 xp

Starting Health 06-10: 10 xp

Starting Health 11-15: 15 xp

Starting Health 16-20: 50 xp

Starting Health 21+: 100 xp

+10 xp if the creature type is immune to non-magical weapons

+10 xp if the creature was controlled by an enemy warband when it was taken out3

 

Exploits

Each Treasure Token recovered by the Wizard or a member of the Wizard’s warband: 50 xp4

Each Treasure Token held by the Wizard or a member of the Wizard’s warband at game’s end: 25 xp5

Each unclaimed Treasure Token on the Wizard’s enemy’s half of the table at game’s end: 25 xp6

Notes:

1. A spell or spell effect that is “cast” automatically by any type of magic item is worth 0 xp.  

 

Also please note that Spellcasters do not earn experience points for casting ‘out of game’ spells.  

 

2. If a Wizard X takes control of a creature or a member of an enemy warband and the controlled model ‘takes out’ a creature or a member of an enemy warband, then the Wizard X receives the experience points for ‘taking out’ a model, not the controlled model’s original owner.

 

3. This includes creatures that are treated as a permanent member of an enemy warband (e.g. summoned Constructs).

 

4. If Wizard X takes controls a creature or an enemy model and Wizard X makes the controlled model leave the table with a Treasure Token (SEE FAQ), then Wizard X earns the experience points for recovering the Treasure Token, not the controlled model’s original owner.

 

5. A Treasure Token is ‘held’ if at game’s end the Treasure Token is being carried but it has not been taken off the table (i.e. recovered).  

 

6. A Treasure token is  ‘unclaimed’ if at game’s end the Treasure Token is not ‘held’ and has not been taken off the table (i.e. recovered).   In multi-player games, the players should mutually agree beforehand on the boundaries that define the ‘enemy’s half (portion) of the table.’

 

 

’We Are Immortal Until Our Work On Earth Is Done’:

When rolling on the Survival Table to determine the nature of a  Wizard’s injuries, replace the ‘Dead’ result with the following  injury: You Should Be Dead - The Wizard suffers two injuries from the Permanent Injury Table and the Wizard may not participate in the next game.   

 

If at any time during a campaign a Wizard suffers a second ‘Lost Eye’ result, reroll the injury until the result is something other than a ‘Lost Eye.’

 

An Elixir of Life may be used to completely negate the effects of a You Should Be Dead injury.

 

 

RANDOM ENCOUNTERS

 

’More Monsters!’: (optional)

The denizens of the accursed city are drawn to the sounds of battle and the smell of bloodshed like a troll is drawn to the smell of stale ale on a dwarf’s beard.  And the longer the battle continues, the greater the likelihood that the melee will be joined by the creatures that dwell among tumbled stone and frozen ruins of Felstad.

 

When a Treasure Token is picked up for the first time the player who controls the model that picked up the Treasure Token rolls a D20 and adds the current turn number to the die roll.  If the modified roll is a 17 or above, a random creature (or creatures) has been encountered.  Thus, if a Treasure Token is picked up for the first time during Turn 1 a random creature will be encountered on die roll of 16 or above (16 + 1 = 17).  On Turn 2, a die roll of 15 or above will trigger a random encounter.  On Turn 3, a die roll of 14 or above will trigger a random encounter and so forth.

 

 

Not So Random Encounters: (optional)

If the players mutually agree to use the Random Encounter rules, then the level of each encounter is not determined randomly.  Instead, the level of the encounter is determined by the level of the Wizard whose warband triggered the encounter.  If a warband’s Wizard does not participate in the scenario due to an injury from Survival Table, then that warband’s level of encounter is it’s Wizard’s level divided by two (rounding up).

 

Level 1-5 Wizards: Level 1 Encounter

Level 5-15 Wizards: Level 2 Encounter

Level 16+ Wizards: Level 3 Encounter

 

Use the standard rules for the placement of creatures (i.e. the center of table edge), but instead of determining the table edge randomly, use the following chart.

 

1 – The warband that triggered the encounter must place the creature in contact with the Treasure Token that triggered the encounter.  

2-10 –The triggering warband's starting table edge

11-13 – The table edge to the right of the triggering warband's starting table edge

14-16 – The table edge opposite of the triggering warband's starting table edge

17-19 – The table edge to the left of the triggering warband's starting table edge

20 – The table edge is chosen by the warband that triggered the encounter

 

Please note that when the Random Encounter creature is placed on the table any model (excluding uncontrolled creatures) that is within 1” of the placed creature is now 'in combat' with the newly placed creature.

 

 

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

Thanks for posting I will post up the ideas I had soon. I agree wholeheartedly on the variable and limited turn.

 

I was thinking of ways to limit running away growth and am curious how many levels gained per game might be a good base line? For example not saying there should be a hard limit but caculate what the max xp that could be gained. I do like the idea that kills should matter and disagreed with bad karma from removing them.

 

Looking at some of suggestions there are graat fixes but are they practical and easy to track. For example the alignment spell casting xp, is a great idea but might be hard to track. Sometimes easier is better than more balance.

 

I also want to revamp the economics that exist in this game, it seems like high rewards can run away with power by purchasing power.

 

Also I have some concerns that I wanted to adress in regards to differences in warbands, I am of the school of inducements to make the battle more event than the school of reward for fighting an uphill battle.

 

Also I want to reward objective play so I was thinking you only get treasure if you remove it from board, period. Wiping the other warband doesn't give the treasure automatically, instead you are still limited by the turns to remove. This prevents wipes from being the best strategy. Also I was thinking maybe a wiped opponent gains controls of the random creatures after a wipe so they have reason to stay and watch.

 

I have much more flushed out ideas that I plan to post but love the dialogue. I know I need to play to get a real handle on the game and test my observations.

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When evaluating an xp scheme or entertaining the idea of capping levels per game, one should think about how 'leveling up' in Frostgrave compares to 'leveling up' in other games. Traditionally, in RPGs and RPG-like games increasing a level or two after an adventure or game can be a pretty big deal.  In Frostgrave it isn't.  Each new level produces a very modest increase that is subject to caps and certain (sometimes expensive) prerequisites. So, if one has a lot of experience with RPG games it's important to analyze 'leveling up' in Frostgrave in terms of what it means in Frostgrave, not what it means in other games.  What I've found in terms of gauging the strength of a warband level difference is often secondary to the warband's wealth, which equates to better soldiers, more magic items, better bases, etc.

 

As for my xp systems, I too was a bit concerned about the bookkeeping but after a couple of games, I found it to be quite simple.

 

For starters, in the scheme that I've devised it doesn't matter which one of your models 'takes out' an enemy model, so calculating xps for kills is as easy as taking a look at your opponent's dead pile. In multi-player games its a tiny bit more complicated, but since the warband sizes are small, individual 'kills' are fairly easy to remember.  What I did was record each kill on a notepad by writing down an an abbreviation of each 'kill' (e.g. Tg = Thug, A = Archer, B = Barbarian, etc.).

 

I used the same notepad for keeping track of spells. I wrote 'OS,' 'AS,' and 'NS' (Own School, Aligned School, and Neutral School) on the pad and when one of my spellcasters successfully cast a spell I put a tally mark next to the appropriate class of spell.  At the end of the game I tallied it all up and voila!

 

Like you, I don't care for the current winner take all scheme so players only get what they take off the table plus a small bonus for a wipe out or a lopsided loss by an underdog.

 

The game's author, Joe, has created a thread in the Lead Adventure Forum's Frostgrave forum asking for people's input on a couple of matters.  You should go check it out.

 

One of the things that I saw that I really like is the idea of having to pay upkeep for Soldiers. Once a warband gets a few games under its belt there is no longer a place in that warband for thugs, thieves and warhounds.  However, if the upkeep of 4 or 5 barbarians was cost prohibitive, then players will have to make some tougher choices when it comes to warband composition.

 

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Guest Mr. Bigglesworth

Good ideas keep it coming. Once I post my update I will do so in new thread so I can moderate the first post as a place j can point to.

 

Can you link that thread as my search fu can be weak on my phone.

 

I have come up with limited site.

 

I get level capping is not a significant concern. Economic caps seem far more of a concern in balancing warbands. As for an upkeep tax that I would have to play with. I plan to grab 10-20 battle reports and chart out some stats about income growth over time.

 

I was thinking of a inducement system similar to bloodbowl where you compare gc values of bands and are able to spend that to balance out play. Ability to hire a sword in to go up to 11. Or ability to buy a scroll or a one game use orb of power. All adjustment limited to that one encounter. Understanding equipment plays a large part in bands strength, I think I want to limit it to just who the soldiers are so that would be my tax. A thug is 20gc regardless if he has a Mage dagger. That also keeps bookkeeping more simple.

 

I think limiting kill xp to just who is in dead box is better than trying to figure who killed what.

 

I see your point about levels being relative especially school to school. A level is fairly simple upgrades and it seems the true strength of leveling shows over quantity of games not the actual number as you can only boost stats by 1 or learn one spell after each encounter. So gaining three levels each game over 5 games versus 5 levels over 3 games, the former is going to likely be better even though both are level 15 baring injuries. Injuries seem to be the factor that limits game sessions.

 

Again I'm in the spitball and theorizing phase.

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According to Joe the Sellswords supplement will be available January 20th. It will only be available as an ebook mini-supplement. Word is that it will eventually be available in a hard copy compendium in 2017.

 

Osprey Publishing has updated the Frostgrave roster sheet to include a Captain.

 

LINKY

 

image_zps19dpmvjp.jpeg

 

 

From Frostgrave's author's blog:

 

One of the most common requests I have received from fans of Frostgrave is for some kind of ‘captain’ to help lead their warbands. Thankfully, this is something I also wanted for the game. Sellsword presents new rules for hiring captains, a soldier who can choose his own weapons and armour, who can gain experience up to a limit, and who can learn ‘tricks of the trade’. (Not exactly skills, you see, but I’ll leave that discussion for another day). Of course, captains want a bit more than the mere retainer paid to other soldiers… Sellsword will also include three new scenarios, all of which have some sort of magical ‘limitation’ in them, so that wizards have to rely a bit more on their soldiers in those situations.

 

The focus of Frostgrave has always been about the wizards, and that is not something I want to change. Most soldiers will always be ‘extras’ as far as the rules are concerned. But the idea of a wizard having a trusted swordsman friend is just too good for me to ignore. Hopefully players will find the little bit of added complexity a worthwhile trade off.

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