cadaver2k Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 The book says that a D weapon does d3 or more wounds in close combat. So if u are engaged with a unit of marines let's say, would one guy be taking all of the hits or would d3 wounds be spread out among the models in base contact? Have to ask because I have very little experience with D weapons and I don't want to do it wrong, Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Each hit applies to one model. So d3 wounds to one guy if he fails whatever save he may have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 The book says that a D weapon does d3 or more wounds in close combat. So if u are engaged with a unit of marines let's say, would one guy be taking all of the hits or would d3 wounds be spread out among the models in base contact? Have to ask because I have very little experience with D weapons and I don't want to do it wrong, Thanks. Several things, of a confusing nature with D weapons. 1) D weapons resolve hits, like other weapons resolve wounds. You assign hits to models. 2) Each model that fails their saves (if any) rolls the hit on the D weapon table. 3) If the saved D hit rolls a 6 on the D weapon table, then effect ignores your saves you just rolled in step 2. 4) The effect of the D weapon is resolved per model, with excess wounds not carrying over. Recall that in 7th, wounds dealt beyond a models wound stat will not count for combat resolution. 5) Note that D weapons are considered S10 for the purposes of instant death and that FNP cannot be taken against D weapons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadaver2k Posted April 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Ok good thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Several things, of a confusing nature with D weapons. 1) D weapons resolve hits, like other weapons resolve wounds. You assign hits to models. 2) Each model that fails their saves (if any) rolls the hit on the D weapon table. You sure that is how it works? Destroyer Weapon: "If the attack hits, roll on the table above instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration." Wound Allocation "Sometimes an attack will gain a bonus or special rule depending on the results rolled To Hit or To Wound (for example, due to the Rending special rule). If you caused any such Wounds, split them into separate Wound pools" Why not treat results 2-5 and 6 as separate wound pools and allocate as normal? Much easier, no rewrite on rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 The D table is more specific and overrides your second quote. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Biggest challenge with D weapons is that most people don't know the rules and just recall the rules as being broken. This leads to easy in-game acceptance of broken rules interpretations, without much second guessing. This in turn, leads to further reputation of broken D rules. Look out sir can very much be taken against D weapon hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 The D table is more specific and overrides your second quote. Nothing in the rules or that table states you allocate and roll armors saves before rolling on the D table. So one way you make up rules, another way you use existing rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Biggest challenge with D weapons is that most people don't know the rules and just recall the rules as being broken. This leads to easy in-game acceptance of broken rules interpretations, without much second guessing. This in turn, leads to further reputation of broken D rules. Look out sir can very much be taken against D weapon hits. Yeah but look out sirs don't really matter when a tank or a MC is getting shot. So it's not much of a saving grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Ok let me be clear cause maybe people are assuming I mean you roll up crap tons of wounds and allocate those. Say 10 Wraithguard shoot at a unit. Six Hit Roll 6 times on the D Chart and you get 1 result 1, 4 results 2-5 and 1 result 6. What I am saying is that those results are then allocated as a wound pool. So shooter decides which is allocated first (4 seriously wounded vs 1 deathblow). Then go through saves and d3 wound determinations etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Horribly confusing rule. Perhaps you should read the entire destroyer rule. Here's the line that matters for saves, written towards the middle. Cover Saves and Invulnerable saves can be taken against hits from a Destroyer weapon as normal, unless a devastating hit or Deathblow in rolled. Technically, GW's ruling is that you assign hits, roll on the table, roll the further effect, then take saves against the initial hit. Lots of extra rolling that way. As for saves, D weapons allow saves unless the 6 is rolled. That said, most D weapons are ap1 or ap2 as noted in the D weapon rules, so armor saves would not be allowed there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Yeah but look out sirs don't really matter when a tank or a MC is getting shot. So it's not much of a saving grace. Well, tyranids have those tyrant guard, which allow their MC to be treated as an IC. Being a grounded tyrant isn't a great plan in 7th, but that is an option. Best solution is typically to have a cover or invulnerable save. Both are very attainable in 7th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Horribly confusing rule. Perhaps you should read the entire destroyer rule. Here's the line that matters for saves, written towards the middle. Technically, GW's ruling is that you assign hits, roll on the table, roll the further effect, then take saves against the initial hit. Lots of extra rolling that way. As for saves, D weapons allow saves unless the 6 is rolled. That said, most D weapons are ap1 or ap2 as noted in the D weapon rules, so armor saves would not be allowed there. Ok I see your argument but the statement that regarding saves versus hits does not necessarily mean you change the order of operations. The rules right above your quote state clearly roll to hit, then roll D chart. The use of the term hit obfuscates things a bit, but keep in mind the destoryer rule is meant to cover wound and pen determination and so they may have used the term 'hit' so as not to start the whole wounds and vehicles arguement. Stated another way, my proposed way does not invalidate the quoted rule and still keeps with the existing rules for wound allocation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadaver2k Posted April 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 So three hits from an Imperial Knight gets me three rolls on the D-table and up to three guys can die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 So three hits from an Imperial Knight gets me three rolls on the D-table and up to three guys can die? Yes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 So three hits from an Imperial Knight gets me three rolls on the D-table and up to three guys can die? Yeah, always been that way. That's why GW thought you'd need stomp attacks too, so the super heavy walkers wouldn't be helpless in melee against hordes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadaver2k Posted April 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 So the stomp affects models under the small blast with a different roll on the stomp table for each small blast template? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Ok I see your argument but the statement that regarding saves versus hits does not necessarily mean you change the order of operations. The rules right above your quote state clearly roll to hit, then roll D chart. The use of the term hit obfuscates things a bit, but keep in mind the destoryer rule is meant to cover wound and pen determination and so they may have used the term 'hit' so as not to start the whole wounds and vehicles arguement. Stated another way, my proposed way does not invalidate the quoted rule and still keeps with the existing rules for wound allocation. Except that D weapons do not resolve against units. Look at the D weapon attack table. It is very clear that Models are hit with D weapons, not units. Then, we go to the last line of the D weapon rules: Multiple wounds/hull points inflicted by a destroyer weapon hit do not carry over to other models in the unit (any excess are lost). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 So the stomp affects models under the small blast with a different roll on the stomp table for each small blast template? I'd have to check. Stomp is independent of D melee weapons for super heavy walkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Each hit applies to one model. So d3 wounds to one guy if he fails whatever save he may have.That was my interpretation. However based on other models that generate more wounds on a roll of a six, those wounds are allocated to the pool. So i am shoot 5 d weapons against 10 guys, I score 5 hits, I then roll to see how many wound, I roll 2-5 for all of them. The I roll d3, let's say I get 3,3,2,1,1 that gives the wound pool 10 wounds. Then the 10 guys get to make there cover or invaluable saves. I think I confused myself, please feel free to set me correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 That was my interpretation. However based on other models that generate more wounds on a roll of a six, those wounds are allocated to the pool. So i am shoot 5 d weapons against 10 guys, I score 5 hits, I then roll to see how many wound, I roll 2-5 for all of them. The I roll d3, let's say I get 3,3,2,1,1 that gives the wound pool 10 wounds. Then the 10 guys get to make there cover or invaluable saves. Look at my above post. Already answered. (here, post #18) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 I saw that after my post, thank you guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Except that D weapons do not resolve against units. Look at the D weapon attack table. It is very clear that Models are hit with D weapons, not units. It is clear that you resolve each D result by model. That is no different then resolving a wound in a wound allocation step or a hit in a vehicle squadron allocation step. We do this all the time with cover saves and the like. Also units (and by extension models) are hit by weapons and nothing in the Destroyer weapon rules changes this. Then, we go to the last line of the D weapon rules: Multiple wounds/hull points inflicted by a destroyer weapon hit do not carry over to other models in the unit (any excess are lost). Of course and nothing in what I am saying invalidates that...I am not advocating what wildcat mentions by rolling the d3 wounds or d6+6 wounds and then allocating. I am advocating applying the Seriously wounded or deathblow result by model as if it were a wound or hit against a vehcile (because it essentially is) and then rolling to see how many wounds/hull points the model suffer (so no carry over). Stated another way, if you allocate based on result like I am advocating you are still satisfying rules you've referenced that talk about hits. You are still taking saves against hits with result 2-5 and there's still no carry over of wounds from a hit. What I am advocating is sticking with the established rules of allocation of wounds/pens while also sticking to the rule of no carry over. Less changes to rules to deal with an ambiguous rule. WHich is what you should do when dealing with poorly written rules (imo) but I wouldn't go so far to say I have the stronger argument, just a different take. However end of day, as a player on the table I would play it either of these ways and would not bother arguing if that is how someone wanted to play it. It's just a bit more cumbersome and takes some control away from the shooter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Of course and nothing in what I am saying invalidates that...I am not advocating what wildcat mentions by rolling the d3 wounds or d6+6 wounds and then allocating. I am advocating applying the Seriously wounded or deathblow result by model as if it were a wound or hit against a vehcile (because it essentially is) and then rolling to see how many wounds/hull points the model suffer (so no carry over). Stated another way, if you allocate based on result like I am advocating you are still satisfying rules you've referenced that talk about hits. You are still taking saves against hits with result 2-5 and there's still no carry over of wounds from a hit. What I am advocating is sticking with the established rules of allocation of wounds/pens while also sticking to the rule of no carry over. Less changes to rules to deal with an ambiguous rule. WHich is what you should do when dealing with poorly written rules (imo) but I wouldn't go so far to say I have the stronger argument, just a different take. However end of day, as a player on the table I would play it either of these ways and would not bother arguing if that is how someone wanted to play it. It's just a bit more cumbersome and takes some control away from the shooter. I guess I don't understand. Can you explain it in steps of how your interpretation would resolve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvos Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Hit's from my D make women go wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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