Duckman

I need to find a primer on how to get set up... Prep an army, etc. Also down for a casual game if someone wants to help walk me through the process.

I'd love to hear about your lists and what and how you are fielding them and how they are performing. I have a bunch of guys here that are interested in TK specifically and I am not as familiar with them as I should be.

Theoretical. I think I have mentioned that I downsized all my models a decade ago and I am still trying to pick an army... At this point I have narrowed it down to Beastmen and Wood Elves with Warriors and Bretonnians coming a distant 3 & 4. I'm also still worried about finding a reliable community. I miss you guys out in the PNW.

There are not more rules but there is also nothing that says the enemy models are in base contact. Everyone wants there to be because otherwise this is the return of the bus and everyone hated that too. The problem is that we don't have a leg to stand on... The rules have no contradictions in them. Base contact is well defined and the Brets have a special rules that says "count as in base contact" which is not reflexive. In addition, note that a lance of knights bounced off my Chaos Warriors... Not Chosen, Chaos Warriors... WS5, T4, W1, A1, 4+ 6++ models and we ruled that only 3 of my models were in contact so my BSB lost 3 attacks (my general was in a challenge so he got a full swing anyway). Even with First Charge taking my ranks he lost by 2. The Brets are dependent on their knights carrying them and point-for-point they are not good enough... Especially not if you get to the point that they should be running in Close Order instead of Lance because Lance sucks for them.

First observation he is a known internet personality for the game and uses a lot of sarcasm to get his point across. Take *nothing* in that video without a grain of salt... I mean, his last comment is about the Conga-dogs who march and charge in the same move... It's sensationalism. Second, linehammer is not all it is cracked up to be. First, you present a huge target. Second, you can't wheel because it would be measured from the end, 20" away and that means the best you would do with a 4" move is a little less than 30 degrees (with no forward motion). Terrain would be your bane as you could not move into or through it without consequece and you would not be able to change formation (ever) as maneuvers do not allow a model to move more than Mv*2 so no changing facing or anything like that. You can barely redress the ranks at that point and only because you can take the end model to the end of the second rank instead of the middle. While it is tongue-in-cheek there is an equally sarcastic response to the skirmishing line variant which is "no model can move more than their basic Mv (not even Mv*2) so if they fail to make contact they are out of formation and that means dead (well, fled, but same thing) per RAW." The big win is that range is not checked for stand and shoot which means that it makes much more sense from the defensive gunline perspective but it still has the multicharge problem that Murphy'sLawyer points out.

Frenzied Chosen have 3+ attacks per model. More if you have AHW (not that you'd ever give them those and lose Ensorcelled Weapons). Models in the Fighting rank are only guaranteed 1 attack. You have to be in base-to-base to get your full profile. Who in the enemy unit is in base with the Lance matters a whole lot for something like 12 of the 16 armies... Monstrous Infantry are going to be the most common but some lists have lots more options that that.

My takeaway is that Warriors are still Warriors. They really want MSU and casting to modify tempo or threaten shooters. This could have gone a lot worse for me if my opponent had been better prepared. That said, my Chaos Armor ward was never really tested and at 1000 points I cannot afford to make nasty characters. Dragon Lord or Chariot Lord is a nasty guy and I can't imagine him being rare this edition. Lots of people like GW because you drop to I 1 and then gain your charge bonus to be I 3 or I 4 with AP-2. The problem is that the armies you want it against are all fast. I don't care if you are I 4... I still get to swing. Elves, same. Dwarves have runes to punish you with if you try it. Seems like a very situational plan to me, far more than people are making it out.

Unfortunately, not much of a BatRep here. This was Bretonnians vs. Warriors of Chaos at 1000 points. 203 points Baron on Warhorse (With the Quest Knights) -Sword of Heroes -Shield -Questing Vow -Virtue of Noble Disdain 258 points: Knights of the Realm on foot x20 (5 wide) - First Knight - Standard Bearer -Musician -Banner of Chalons 121 points: Men at Arms x26 (5 wide) -Yeoman -Standard Bearer -Musician 318 points: Questing Knights x9 (Lance of 10 with Lord) -Paragon -Standard bearer -Virtue of Knightly Temper 100 points: Trebuchet vs Warriors of Chaos - Demo Combat - [999pts] ## Main Force [999pts] ### Characters [304pts] Aspiring Champion [97pts]: (In Warriors block) • 1x Aspiring Champion: Battle Standard Bearer, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Shield Exalted Champion [207pts]: (in Warriors block) • 1x Exalted Champion: General, Enchanting Aura, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Favour of the Gods, Filth Mace, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Shield ### Core [578pts] Chaos Knights [250pts]: (4 wide) • 8x Chaos Knight: Chaos Steed, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lance, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Shield • 1x Champion • 1x Musician • 1x Standard Bearer Chaos Warriors [263pts]: (5 wide) • 15x Chaos Warrior: Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Shield • 1x Champion • 1x Musician • 1x Standard Bearer: Banner of Range Marauder Horsemen [65pts]: (5 wide) • 5x Marauder Horsemen: Cavalry Spear, Hand Weapon, Light Armour, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Javelin, Warhorse, Hand Weapon ### Special [117pts] Chaos Ogres [117pts]: (3 wide) • 3x Chaos Ogre: Great Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Mark of Chaos Undivided • 1x Champion First observation is that my opponent's list is weak with lots of points in the Knights on Foot (not mobile) and no basic shooting. The table is 4'x4', 2 woods on the edge on my left and an impassible farm house with a low wall (linear obstacle) and two large wheat fields (block line of sight, no movement effect) on the right flank. I place first. Resulting placement is, left to right for me... Marauder Cav, Knights, Warriors, Ogres. His line opposite is Trebuchet, Men at Arms, Knights on Foot, Questing Knights. He prays for the Blessing of the Lady and I go first. There's an error by my opponent here. He's set the knights up outside the wheat fields forgetting that they will block LOS and thus charges. Essentially he has sequestered 520 of his 1000 points at this time. Turn 1 - I roll Gaze of the Gods for both Champions. My BSB gets STR/LD (6) and my General gets WS (4). Both are in the Warriors block (I'm not exactly bunkering but I want to see how it performs against the Bret Baron plus Knights in the Lance with the worst possible interpretation of the Lance rules, basing only the tip of the Lance and everything else is not in contact). I march everyone forward looking to get into contact. My Fast Cav threaten his Treb, my Knights threaten his Men at Arms, my warriors oppose his Foor Knights and my Ogres hide behind the impassible building looking toward the infantry blocks. He the Men at Arms to my left trying to shield the Treb and pushes the others forward. His Treb fires at my knights and misfires (Twang). Turn 2- My champions both roll temporary stats this turn on Gaze of the Gods. My Marauders march to right in front of his Treb and Quick Turn to face the Flank of the Men at Arms. My knights fail a charge in front of his Men at Arms stopping 10" away from him (his max charge). by rolling 6+1+1 with Swiftstride and missing by millimeters. My warriors continue to march forward, the Ogres step in line toward the middle to make sure the Lance cannot hit them in the back. (Forgot I could Move and Shoot even with march so no Jav's this turn.) His Men at Arms shift toward the Treb again while the Knights on Foot walk forward into charge range and the Lance wheels into the first wheat field and onto the road to get some LoS. His treb shoots hits the Knights this time. The Champ makes his LoS. 3 Knights die but we pass Panic. Turn 3 - Forget to roll Gaze of the Gods. I wanted a cheatsheet and forgot to put it together. Combo-charge the Men at Arms with both groups of horse, charge the Foot Knights with the Warriors. The Knights lose one to the Men at Arms but the Marauders are unscathed. Men at Arms end on a 2, fail completely and Flee from the Maraders (oops, they have more US now)... Marauders fail to hold (I wanted to shoot the Treb next) and the knights roll snakeyes to fail to run down the peasants. The Warriors win by a few but the Foot Knights only FBIGO for 3-4". I pursue and we lock up again. On his 3 the peasants fail to rally and flee into the rear of the knights who don't care (but are now crowded). His Lance pushes forward to the next field so he can see the infantry battle and set a charge for his 4. The battle between the infantry is close (he loses by 2) and he holds so we don't move. Turn 4 - I remember Gaze of the Gods this turn and get the same result. My BSB is now S 6, Ld 10 and my General is WS 8. My Knights charge the flank of the Foot Knights. My Marauders turn and shoot the Treb for 1 wound. With the help of the Knights I get a net -6 on the Foot Knights and they FBIGO again. This means they bounce through the peasants. Here we played it wrong. We had the peasants panic again and flee through the foot knights and off the board. They should have ignored the knights fleeing through them (fleeing units don't check panic). My warriors restrain and set to receive the Lance while my Knights pursue. They should have hit the peasants, destroyed them and reformed. We played it as hitting the Knights on Foot instead. On his 4, my opponent charged the Warriors with his Lance which was what we were most interested in. Now, point of note... The Lance says everyone on the outside is considered to be in base contact with the enemy unit. It says nothing about being reciprocal. I remember the bus which was equally stupid and I think this is intended. There's a lot of noise from non-Bret players about how this should result in full frontage being applied to the opponent unit so multiattack units (like my frenzied Warriors) get lots of attacks. I fully expect this to get a FAQ that says it is written as intended and the Brets only face attacks from 2-3 models so that's what we played to test. His Baron has to challenge by vow. I accept the challenge with my General. He throws 4 attacks and wiffs. His horse throws 1 and wiffs. I throw 5 attacks for 3 potential wounds and he saves 2 on armor and ward. So I win the challenge with 1 wound (not killing him). His Lance swings with Champion plus 6 for 7 great weapon attacks and 6 horse attacks and throws 2 wounds, 1 of which I save. I throw frenzied Champ + command (7 attacks) and get 1 through his armor and ward. I have no ranks (First Charge) and he has no ranks (1 casualty) so I win by BSB and a wound. At this point he scooped and we called it.

Warriors of Chaos vs. Bretonnia at 1000 points. We'll see if it merits a batrep. It will be played with Foam Core bases and 2d figures (traditional Poorhammer) because nobody is collecting miniatures yet so there will probably not be any pics but we shall see.

I believe that you are correct. Warband modifies the Ld of the models in the unit not the leader over there. On the other hand you can get leaders that have warband (including your No Good... Err.... Night Goblin Warboss. Put him in the unit of Night Goblins and he benefits from their Horde and Warband and becomes Ld 9. Further his Inspiring presence is now also 9 for everyone else. Unfortunately, you cannot make him a Large Target to boost him to 18" command radius. Beastmen also benefit from this trick.

It's a tempting proposition but who's got the STLs? I've seen some nice stuff but if I really want stuff from 6th, 7th or 8th is there a good option?

I spent a lot of time last night looking at 1000-point lists for the demo matches I am putting on at my FLGS (which are getting a fabulous response, btw). I spent some time looking at Wood Elves specifically and my take is this... They are going to be a solid army but I felt they lacked a solid synergy or ethos... Their strength is shooting with high Ld and I and very good mobility. As a result, the elves are all lightly armored with really solid statlines. Some regen, some wards... The Treemen and Treekin are on the weak side for Monsters and Monstrous Infantry and didn't feel like they really had any flavor to their special rules They're not bad and along with Dryads and Wardancers give you some for melee but that's clearly not the strong (or flavorful) part of this list. The only stuff in the rare section is the Treemen, the Waystalkers (scouting skirmishers) and Great Eagles so this list has a lot of flexibility in how it is built (up to 50% of your list in Deepwood Scouts, Wildwood Rangers, Wardancers, Sisters of the Thorn, Wild Riders and Warhawk Riders which means melee, ranged, skirmishers, light cav or monstrous inf... Very flexible...). Your ability to vary how you want the list to play will be almost completely dependent on your models... I don't see these units flexing into different roles well... If I think about shooty, melee hammer, melee anvil, caster, etc. only the Wardancers can really fill different roles based on unit composition. Overall, this is definitely a functional list but it feels like it's strength is standing back and avoiding casualties while withering the enemy with range. If it wants to play to a different style its unit selection dwindles quickly. At least that is my impression on paper.

It'll be interesting to see. I am looking into ways to disorder charges and otherwise screw with initiative as I see that being the big counter to this tactic. It's also worth noting that the places this really matters are against Bretonnians, Warriors of Chaos and possibly some High Elf lists. The Warriors and the Elves are all I4 to begin with and the mounted Bretonnians all have countercharge. That means at best you will be simultaneous and that is not guaranteed if they're paying any attention when picking lores. Even Dwarves have multiple unit-based options for ruining this plan and they're only kinda second tier armored up.

I remember playing a match against Brother G at Ordo one year. I had my Warriors and he had his Woodies. I find that since I downsized when I moved overseas I am in the liberated position of being able to consider any army. That said, my tastes seem to run counter to yours (Bro G) in that I like the heavier, more reliable troops... Warriors and Dwarves and such from 6th, 7th and 8th. That said, I have not seen how those actually play yet and I wonder how armor and AP will affect things now... While it looks the same on paper I am not sure quite what 3+ AS means now. (AP looks more common but in part that is because it is all called out now and none of it is hidden in being S4+). I'm also putting together demo games for my FLGS to try and create (or identify existing) players to make it worth getting an army together. In the process of doing so I took a deeper look at Bretonnians (we never had a real Bret player up in NE Seattle when I was playing) and they look surprisingly tempting. Again, no experience on the tabletop but they felt really comfortable on paper. I have not tried to wrap my head around all the other lists yet but I have looked at Dwarves, High Elves and Daemons and not found the same warm fuzzies that I feel for blocks of armor and knights.

Yeah, that is my reading. I think that section is mainly aimed at shuffling around during messy multi-unit combats but even if you apply it to a Stupid shambler the only way you get into combat is if you hit the target in the front arc and they decide to engage you. That seems less likely than even being stupid and missing your leadership test.

OK, I played Warrior of Chaos back in the day and so I am starting there for comfort and warm fuzzies. I'm looking at the Gaze of the Gods special rule and the only downside of this is the Damned by Chaos result which gives permanent Stupidity. As I recall, Stupidity used to be able to stumble into a unit and count as a charge. I'm not seeing that anywhere in the new rules... The Stupidity rule itself on p. 178 specifically states that the unit "Cannot march or declare a charge" which implies that it should be subject to the 1" rule. I mean, getting Stupidity and failing leadership on a Chaos Champion should be really rare which means it will happen 3 times in my first demo game so I figure I should check... Am I missing something somewhere?

LOL Fortunately I was married when I used to play so my wife knows what is coming. As to whether or not she approves, that is a different matter.

On the topic of casting and dispells, I recall wizards being limited to one dispell per turn. I didn't see any such limit when reading the new rules. Did I miss it somewhere? On the topic of Favorite Things... Gawd, I have missed chatting with you guys in the Fantasy channels. It's so nice to be back even if I am not in the PNW anymore. Someone needs to get Raindog in here.

Whiner. (LOL, 😉 ) These rules are already more complete than we ever got back in the old Fantasy universe... It's in the rulebook... On the first printing... Such an improvement. I mean, that's like modern software being feature complete at release... Unheard of, amiright?

Honestly, I would rather see hobby than support GW. Support your LGS, make sure folks can tell what the units in your army are, buy GW if and only if you like what they are selling.

Personally, I always liked rare earth magnets in my bases and simple metal sheets for movement trays.... You can then put whatever you like for basing material on the metal sheet and be in pretty good shape. I've been thinking about it and where I need to resize a unit my initial thought is to just use paint to define bases on the existing sheets so that I know how much space "a model" takes up.

Yeah, no support; not part of the lore going forward; etc. I expect lack of support to mean no balance work either which means the only way they'll remain playable over time will be through user support in the community (which seems to work great in Bloodbowl and be like pulling teeth in the tabletop communities oddly enough). The thought of warhammer without warp-crazed rodent swarms is just wrong-wrong.

I find it amusing that of the four armies I played only one made it to WTOW. I probably would not go back to Lizards even if they were present but I will miss Skaven and Chaos Dwarves.