Dusldorf

56 minutes ago, Ish said:

It’s really obnoxious that you keep doing well with your “Imperial Soup” army that uses a bunch of basic transports, a pair of squishy psyker, and single-wound infantry.

Didn’t you pay any attention to the experts on the Internet who told you those things were all worthless now?

 

Repentia are pretty widely considered the best unit in the sisters codex, and full-payload manticores do a lot of work. One the other hand, the conscript + psychic barrier (+1 save) + power through knowledge (5++) + mental fortitude (ignore morale) combo is quite fringe and I'm proud to see it work consistently. The rest of the list is relatively straightforward.

I will say one of the biggest mistakes I see people making is taking too few "do nothing" units that can score primary or secondary points. The scions and infantry squad fall into this category, and there's a lot of mission play that comes from the rhinos (move blocking, tagging objectives, charging first to absorb overwatch, etc.). 

I recently finished playing in a TTS tournament with a bunch of Art of War subscribers and went 5-1 (none of the 44 participants went 6-0), finishing in 3rd place with the below list. My one loss was to Sterling Arnet's Harlequin & Drukhari combo.

My matchups, in order, were: Custodes, Nids, Aeldari (Harlequins & Drukhari), White Scars, White Scars, and Blood Angels.

Was a lot of fun and I'm now thinking about ways to keep the same style of list but splash a patrol of Dark Angels, for access to the Watched warlord trait (once per game auto-deny from anywhere on the board), the Reliquary of the Repentant relic (-1 to the invul saves of enemy units within 3"), and a Judiciar.

+++ 9e 2k AM AS (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) +++

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [71 PL, -2CP, 1,270pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment CP

Regimental Doctrine: Gunnery Experts, Spotter Details

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

+ Agents of the Imperium +

Inquisitor [4 PL, -1CP, 60pts]: 2) Psychic Fortitude, Blackshroud, Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Malleus - Power Through Knowledge, Malleus - Psychic Mastery, Ordo Malleus, Psyker, Stratagem: Inquisitorial Mandate

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 195pts]: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 210pts]: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 210pts]: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

+ Troops +

Conscripts [5 PL, 150pts]
. 30x Conscript: 30x Lasgun

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 50pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Elites +

Astropath [2 PL, 25pts]: Psychic Barrier, Telepathica Stave

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol, Relic: Kurov's Aquila, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +

Manticore [8 PL, 150pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Flamer, Hunter-Killer Missile

Manticore [8 PL, 150pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Flamer, Hunter-Killer Missile

++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [37 PL, 7CP, 729pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

Detachment CP [-3CP]

Order Convictions: Order: Bloody Rose

+ Stratagems +

Open the Reliquaries [-1CP]: Additional Relics of the Ecclesiarchy

+ No Force Org Slot +

Repentia Superior [2 PL, 40pts]

+ HQ +

Canoness [3 PL, -1CP, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Heroine in the Making, Null Rod, Relic: Beneficence, Warlord Trait: 2. Righteous Rage

+ Elites +

Preacher [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Sisters Repentia [6 PL, 120pts]
. 8x Sisters Repentia: 8x Penitent Eviscerator

Sisters Repentia [6 PL, 120pts]
. 8x Sisters Repentia: 8x Penitent Eviscerator

Sisters Repentia [6 PL, 120pts]
. 8x Sisters Repentia: 8x Penitent Eviscerator

+ Dedicated Transport +

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 78pts]: Storm bolter

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 78pts]: Storm bolter

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 78pts]: Storm bolter

++ Total: [108 PL, 5CP, 1,999pts] ++

Some more test games are proving that things like the knight or GMNDKs push me too far into an elite style of army, and I just need more bodies to compete against obsec spam. My latest list features a couple of mechanized guard units and Karamazov, whose leadership auras synergize really well with both guard (to prevent failed morale tests) and grey knights (to maximize damage via Purge Soul): he gives Ld11 to every imperial unit within 12", and gives -1 Ld to enemy infantry within 12". Crowe is also a nice cheap body for generating command points and/or completing psyker-related secondary objectives. Finally, I've added a Techmarine Master of the Forge to my Black Templars detachment so that my Invictors (MVPs in quite a few games) can hit better and stick around longer.

2k imperial soup 

[978] SM patrol (-1cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)
warlord refund (+2cp)

Strats
master of the forge (-1cp)

No slot
chapter: black templars
[100] culexus

HQ
[100] captain in phobos armor (93), master-crafted instigator bolt carbine (5), camo cloak (2), relic: aurilian shroud
[40] techmarine (40), chainsword, warlord, master of the forge, WT: master the machine

Troops
[70] 5 scouts (70), bolters

Elites
[165] invictor (135), twin ironhail autocannon, 2 ironhail heavy stubbers (10), heavy bolter (15), fragstorm grenade launcher (5)
[165] invictor (135), twin ironhail autocannon, 2 ironhail heavy stubbers (10), heavy bolter (15), fragstorm grenade launcher (5)

Heavy
[140] thunderfire cannon (85), techmarine gunner (45), plasma cutter (5), flamer (5)
[130] 5 devastators (75), 4 grav cannons (40), cherub (5), combi-melta (10), chainsword

Transport
[68] drop pod (65), storm bolter (3)

====

[310] GK battalion (-3cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)

Strats
arbiter of the emperor's will (-1cp)

No slot
[125] inquisitor karamazov, WT: formidable resolve

HQ
[85] castellan crowe (85), empyrean domination

Troops
[100] 5 strikes (85), stormbolters (15), staves, purge soul

====

[712] AM patrol (-3cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)

Strats
tank ace (-1cp)

No slot    
custom regiment: gunnery experts, jury-rigged repairs
[100] vindicare (100)

HQ
[190] tank commander (155), executioner (15), lascannon (20)

Troops
[50] 10 guardsmen (50), chainsword
[52] 10 guardsmen (50), sniper rifle (2), chainsword

Heavy
[145] manticore (130), heavy flamer (15), tank ace: full payload

Transports
[85] chimera (65), heavy flamer (15), multilaser (5)
[90] taurox (60), 2 autocannons (30)

====

total points: 2000
total units: 19
starting cp: 12 -2 (patrol) +2 (warlord refund) -2 (patrol) -2 (patrol) -3 (strats) = 5

27 minutes ago, Tamwulf said:

The problem is Android SDK is in Java, and Apple can use Java, but it's mainly developed in Swift (which is Java-like, but handles things very differently). They can both use Objective C, and they use the same Data Bases, but the way it processes those DB's are very different. The operating systems in Android and iOS are VERY different in how they handle code. You can't just "port over" Android code into XCode and then let the interpreter compile into Swift and... it just doesn't work that way. They basically have to make two Apps or it will be nothing but bugs, problems, and DB errors all the time. 

An example would be something like 2 + 3 x 4 = X. In Android, that might be X = 20. But in iOS, that could be X = 14. But you notice they used the same numbers (the Data Base) and the same operations (the programming code). It was how the Operating system interpreted the numbers and operations that mattered.

Totally! I'm not an engineer (though I work with plenty) and the difficult process you're describing is what I was trying to allude to by saying "port over".

Seeing all the negative reactions to the app, I'm shocked that they didn't just hire the team that makes Battlescribe; if they hadn't considered that, maybe they should now...

Just now, Ish said:

One month seems pretty soon to me.

October is a bit more than two months away though?

13 minutes ago, Tamwulf said:

Yeah, I'm not sure HOW they are going to get this app on iPhone. Apple are tyrants about apps, requiring full access to the app for a very lengthy and technical approval process. Then, every time the app requires an update, it has to go through the entire process again.

I have a feeling the hang up is GW trying to negotiate the fees. See, if an app is "free", then the creator is charged a one time fee to apply to have the App put on the store. If the app has micro-transactions or a monthly fee, Apple gets a percentage of that fee- and it's a hefty 15%-30% depending on the type and amount. The reason I know all this was due to the CS 483 Mobile Application Development class I took last year where we made apps for both Android and Apple, and we went through the entire process to get an App at the Android, Google, and Apple store.

Seems pretty clear cut that they would get hit with double fees then right? After all they're choosing to pursue a freemium pricing model. I think the delay has more to do with outsourced development and needing to port what were originally Android app design assets & architecture into Apple's framework. But who knows 🙂

I've been playing a lot of TTS and iterating on my list. Some of the biggest changes have involved transitioning away from Sisters, since I don't need two different 4+ deny stratagems, and replacing them and Guilliman with Guard and a Knight, respectively. I've also gravitated toward a few scouting units, because in 9th starting the game already in the middle of the board is extremely valuable. While Ultramarines have access to a redeploy strat, my Templars have to rely on sheer resilience in the form of the Aurilian Shroud relic: once per battle round (almost always the first) I get a 4++ on all units within 3" of the bearer until the end of the battle round. This gives my Invictors the resilience they need to survive the heat that they draw away from the knight. Right now I'm 4-1 with an earlier variation on this list (same factions: Guard, Templars, and a knight). This latest variation features the addition of a grav devastator squad, which I added after my recent loss to Death Guard -- one of the best factions in 9th ed.

2k imperial soup 

[943] SM patrol (-0cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)
warlord refund (+2cp)

No slot
chapter: black templars
[100] culexus

HQ
[100] captain in phobos armor (93), master-crafted instigator bolt carbine (5), camo cloak (2), warlord, WT: frontline commander, relic: aurilian shroud

Troops
[80] 5 scouts (70), boltguns, combi-melta (10), chainsword

Elites
[165] invictor (135), twin ironhail autocannon, 2 ironhail heavy stubbers (10), heavy bolter (15), fragstorm grenade launcher (5)
[165] invictor (135), twin ironhail autocannon, 2 ironhail heavy stubbers (10), heavy bolter (15), fragstorm grenade launcher (5)

Heavy
[130] thunderfire cannon (85), techmarine gunner (45)
[135] 5 devastators (75), 4 grav cannons (40), cherub (5), combi-melta (10), power axe (5)

Transport
[68] drop pod (65), storm bolter (3)

====

[490] IK superheavy auxiliary (-5cp)

Detachment
superheavy auxiliary (-3cp)

Strats
heirlooms of the household (-1cp)
exalted court (-1cp)

No slot
house: mechanicus freeblade

LoW
[490] knight crusader (395), thermal cannon (75), ironstorm missile pod (15), heavy stubber (5), heavy flamer (0), WT: ion bulwark, relic: mark of the omnissiah
    freeblade quality: legendary hero
    freeblade burdens: exiled in shame, impetuous nature

====

[567] AM patrol (-3cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)

Strats
tank ace (-1cp)

No slot
custom regiment: gunnery experts, jury-rigged repairs
[100] vindicare

HQ
[185] tank commander (155), executioner (15), heavy bolter (15)

Troops
[52] 10 guardsmen (50), sniper rifle (2), chainsword

Heavy
[145] manticore (130), heavy flamer (15), tank ace: full payload

Transport
[85] chimera (65), multilaser (5), heavy flamer (15)

====

total points: 2000
total units: 14
starting cp: 12 -2 (patrol) +2 (warlord refund) -2 (patrol) -3 (superheavy auxiliary) -3 (strats) = 4

17 minutes ago, Ish said:

The new terrain guidelines are one terrain feature per square foot of table space and everyone seems to think the suggested minimum table sizes are the required maximum table sizes... So it might be tricky to use a lot of drop pods given how dense the table is gonna be.

Just can't open all the doors as easily anymore, which is a good thing imo. Also with that much terrain it'll be tough if not impossible to completely screen off sections of the board.

Today I'm trying out a variation that solves a few of the problems we were discussing.

My previous list suffered from some glaring issues:  weakness to haywire spam (since every asset except the triumph was a vehicle), vulnerable (read: transport-less) troops, and character taxes; the latter has always been an issue with soup but matters more now because of the way cp work in 9th.

I've replaced the GK patrol with a supreme command featuring Guilliman. He gives me bonus cp, removes the need for separate re-roll auras like the Canoness (he even gives re-rolls to the assassins!), and makes my entire army more mobile.

The sisters detachment is much leaner without the Canoness, allowing me to afford an Immolator for my precious obsec unit.

I've also replaced the Astra Militarum patrol with a patrol of Black Templars. The assault centurions are wicked tough: with the litany of divine protection and the apothecary's relic aura, they'll be rocking a 2+/5++/5+++ base, and once per game I can increase the invul to a 4++ using the Aurilian Shroud; plus, I can heal them twice per turn with the chief apothecary. The Black Templars' mobility stratagems from Faith & Fury are even better in 9th edition since people are swarming the midboard (i.e., I don't have as far to travel), and allow me to advance and charge or even consolidate into combat (i.e., ignoring overwatch!) for 1cp each. I would have liked to include one of the new Judiciars to make an enemy unit fight last, but the Culexus can fill that role: for 2cp, every enemy unit within 3" will fight last and lose any fight first abilities. Finally, the scouts are an extremely useful tax since on turn 1 they can move block, allow me to use a 4+ deny strat by being within range of key psykers, or contribute to key secondaries like Raise the Banners High or Engage On All Fronts.

I have quite a bit less long-range shooting than before, and fewer obsec units, but I think this list is better suited to 9th's missions and smaller board size:

2k imperial soup 

====

[940] AS patrol (-3cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)

Strats
heroine in the making (-1cp)

No slot
conviction: valorous heart
[100] culexus (100)

HQ
[195] triumph of st katherine (195)

Troops
[85] 5 sisters (55), 2 meltaguns (20), simulacrum imperialis (5), cherub (5), chainsword

Elites
[45] imagifier (45), WT: beacon of faith, tale of the stoic

Heavy support
[195] exorcist (150), exorcist missile launcher (30), heavy bolter (15)
[195] exorcist (150), exorcist missile launcher (30), heavy bolter (15)

Transports
[125] immolator (80), immolation flamer (30), heavy bolter (15)

====

[680] SM patrol (-7cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)
chapter: black templars

Strats
master of sanctity (-1cp)
chief apothecary (-1cp)
2x hero of the chapter (-2cp)
1x relics of the chapter (-1cp)

No slot
[100] vindicare (100)

HQ
[105] chaplain with jump pack (105), master of sanctity, WT: wise orator, relic: aurilian shroud, litanies of the devout: divine protection, fervent acclamation

Troops
[70] 5 scouts (70), combat blades

Elites
[60] primaris apothecary (60), chief apothecary, WT: selfless healer, relic: healer's aegis
[345] 6 assault centurions (270), 12 flamers (60), 1 hurricane bolter (15, on sergeant), 5 assault launchers (free)

====

[380] SM supreme command (+5cp)

Detachment
supreme command refund (+2)
chapter: ultramarines

[380] rowboat gorillaman (380), warlord (+3cp), WT: nobility made manifest

====

total points: 2000
total units: 13
starting cp: 12 -2 (patrol) +2 (warlord refund) -2 (patrol) -6 (strats) +3 (gorillaman) = 7

38 minutes ago, Inquisitor66 said:

You don't see value in one of other 2 being able to contest a backfield objective by murderafieing something on charge?

The GMNDK can fill that role well enough I think, but if it becomes an issue I'll revisit things.

59 minutes ago, Ish said:

How much is a Chimera costing these days? Maybe dropping one (or both) of the Assassins to mechanize one (or two) of your Imperial Guard Infantry Squads would be a useful boost?

The Dreadknight and Strike Squad could “sweep” an Objective, then the Chimera squad could park on it to hold it. With two Exorcists, two Russes, and the Dreadknight also on the battlefield, enemy anti-vehicle shooting might not have shots to spare to take out the Chimera... 

Chimera is 85 w/ multilaser and heavy bolter now. Immolator is 125 w/ the flamers.

I'm trying to find a way to run an Immolator, but it's tough. I want the guard bodies for 1st/2nd turn move blocking or objective stealing, but they also die so quickly that it feels like a trap. I'll keep noodling on it...

Played my first game of 9th ed yesterday over TTS using the above list; we played No Man's Land (Eternal War Strike Force Mission 4) and my opponent was running Armageddon guard (Emperor's Fist Vigilus battalion) with 50 guardsmen, 4 chimeras, 2 Tank Commanders, a Vulture with twin punishers, a Valkyrie with rocket pods, 2 Hellhounds, 2 Basilisks, 3 Bullgryns, and a Company Commander (maybe a couple odd things I'm forgetting but that's most of it).

Some general lessons learned/confirmed:

• I was a little afraid that 9th's primary objectives would feel lopsided and give players a huge advantage depending on their ability to alpha strike or stick on objectives. But in 9th it seems like both players are on a largely equal playing field in terms of scoring mechanics: both have to survive on objectives for an entire enemy turn before they can score points. This feels really good; it forces you to be aggressive, leads to more tense situations/rolls, and lots more trading of objectives throughout the game. You really can't play a traditional gunline and expect to win.
• Because staying power is at a premium, transports filled with obsec troops are a huge pain. My opponent got first turn and parked every Chimera and Hellhound in the center of the board; if I managed to kill a transport, the obsec bodies simply spilled onto the objective, making it even harder for me to contest. (Tabletop Titans have been showing off and explaining the strength of this strategy for weeks but experiencing it first hand is a trip.) You need the familiar combination of tank- and troop-killing power PLUS your own obsec units to steal objectives back from your opponent. It's a pretty big shift in incentives for list construction, movement, and target priority.
• Not all secondaries are created equal. I know this is pretty obvious to anyone who's read the secondary objectives, but it's worth saying because the design behind 9th's secondaries is very different from that of past ITC/Nova/GW secondaries, which seemed like they were designed to put a wide variety of lists on a level playing field. 9th's secondaries are intentionally lopsided (well, at least the ones in the core book -- we'll see what the GT missions look like soon). For example, slay the warlord gives you 6 points if you succeed and that's it...you don't even have the opportunity to get 15 points by killing other characters. In yesterday's game I picked Bring It Down, Thin Their Ranks, and Secure No Man's Land (a unique one attached to the mission), while my opponent picked Abhor the Witch, Engage on All Fronts, and Secure No Man's Land.
• Mission-specific secondaries like Secure No Man's Land create really interesting choices. Secondaries are chosen in secret before deployment, and if either player chooses not to pick Secure No Man's land, for example, which gives you points at the end of your player turn equal to the current game turn, then they're forgoing any reward for displacing the enemy with their own units. That is, if I had a pure shooting list and wanted to prevent my opponent from scoring this secondary then I could accomplish that by shooting him off the center objective each turn, but I actually have close combat threats that I want to use in the midboard as well; if I don't pick this secondary then I'm forgoing the points I would have accumulated from their presence after killing/outnumbering my opponent. Overall it's an interesting dilemma that also depends on lists/terrain, but I think most balanced lists will get more benefit from choosing this secondary (and ones like it) than from passing on it.

Some takeaways about my list:

• Crowe can't actually use the 1cp strat to extend the range of his psychic powers since he doesn't have the Rites of Banishment ability. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
• Despite the fact that I pulled out the win on turn 5, I feel like my list didn't have enough close combat punch. I struggled too long to kill the transports that swarmed the middle of the board. This would also be a problem against Custodes, Centurion-heavy lists, Lord of Skull lists, etc.
• Strike squads are cool, and the purge soul + inquisitor combo worked well, but they die to a stiff breeze.

These takeaways in mind, I've swapped Crowe and two Strike squads for a Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. This puts me up to six highly durable assets, two of which (it and the Triumph) have big melee potential; whereas the Triumph excels in melee against hordes, this guy will be better at assaulting vehicles and the like.

Here's the updated list:

2k imperial soup 

[682] AM battalion (-2cp)

Detachment
battalion (-3cp)
warlord (+3cp)

Strats
vigilus: emperor's fist (-1cp)
tank ace (-1cp)

No slot
doctrine: gunnery experts, jury-rigged repairs
[100] culexus

HQ
[190] tank commander (155), heavy bolter (15), battlecannon (20), tank ace: master mechanic, relic: hammer of sunderance (free)
[205] tank commander (155), heavy bolter (15), punisher (35), tank ace: master mechanic
[37] company commander (35), bolt pistol (2), chainsword, warlord

Troops
[50] 10 guardsmen
[50] 10 guardsmen
[50] 10 guardsmen

====

[882] AS patrol (-4cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)

Strats
open the reliquaries (-1cp)
arbiter of the emperor's will (-1cp)

No slot
conviction: valorous heart
[65] ordo hereticus inquisitor (60), inferno pistol (5), chainsword (free), psyker, terrify, relic: blackshroud, WT: formidable resolve

HQ
[60] canoness (50), blessed blade (10), bolt pistol, relic: wrath of the emperor
[195] triumph of st katherine (195)

Troops
[55] 5 sisters (55), chainsword

Elites
[45] imagifier (45), tale of the stoic

Fast Attack
[72] 5 dominions (60), 4 stormbolters (12)

Heavy support
[195] exorcist (150), exorcist missile launcher (30), heavy bolter (15)
[195] exorcist (150), exorcist missile launcher (30), heavy bolter (15)

====

[435] GK patrol (-2cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)

No slot
[100] vindicare

HQ
[250] grand master nemesis dreadknight (180), gatline psilencer (20), heavy psycannon (25), greathammer (15), teleporter (10), sanctuary

Troops
[85] 5 strikes (85), halberds, purge soul

====

total points: 1999
total units: 18
starting cp: 12 -3 (battalion) +3 (warlord refund) -2 (patrol) -2 (patrol) -4 (strats) = 4

1 minute ago, Lyraeus said:

Uhhhh lasting any length of time is the issue though. 

I have to be able to hide my units well enough or face some SERIOUS pain

Yeah, sorry, I don't mean to make light of what's obviously a [big bad swear word]ty situation for horde players. Just pointing out that game duration is one small ray of sunshine in that regard.

14 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

[120] Big Mek with Relic Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord Big Killa Boss (the unit normally comes with the SAG but GQ has a separate points for it so...yea... 50% increase)

 

Oof. 10 Gretchen costing 50pts has to hurt, too.

10 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

I posted my list. Its not all hordes though there 127 models over all. Far less than when I fielded near 200 for certain.

 

Still much of that would need to be tempered by the missions since Killing is not always the mission and Line of Sight is what it is. 

(Wasn't sure where to reply, in your thread or mine :P) 

The lower model count is a big deal for sure, but then again with only 5 turns you don't need to last quite as long.

12 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

I suspect my Orks would have a HARD time fending this off. A hard time indeed

The punisher and ample storm bolters are the obvious answers to horde lists, but Crowe is the sleeper pick. He's a new budget choice for me because of 9th's sweeping point increases, but he excels against both hordes and tough characters: with a d6 smite and inner fire, he does an average of 5-6 mortal wounds for 1cp (to extend his powers' range by 6" for the phase), and in combat he can get up to 24 attacks (6 + extras for each successful wound roll + auto fight again on death).

After much noodling before points dropped today, plus some additional cuts/edits once they did, I settled on a list with which to start playing games of 9th ed. I've always liked soup for the utility options it provides; this list may not deliver the strongest board control, or shooting, or mobility, but it can do all three competitively, and it's designed to take all comers.

A couple of combos that are worth pointing out:

• The inquisitor and GK strike squads: the former's warlord trait gives me a 12" radius Ld 10 bubble that buffs the Purge Soul power, plus I can Terrify a unit to give them an additional -1 Ld. Against otherwise tough units like Riptides, suddenly each strike squad is doing up to 7 mortal wounds on the turn it drops in.
• Taking three detachments lets me start each game with both a Culexus and a Vindicare. Basically I'm getting extra value out of my third detachment, since I'll rarely if ever have to pay 2cp to swap either of these assassins for a Callidus or Eversor. (As a side note, the Callidus' cp tax ability feels much less valuable in 9th ed because everyone gains 1cp at the start of each turn; if I can't deplete someone's cp pool early, or force them to make really tough choices, then I'm not as into it.)

Here's the list:

2k imperial soup (AM, AS, GK) 

[680] AM battalion (-2cp)

Detachment
battalion (-3cp)
warlord (+3cp)

Strats
vigilus: emperor's fist (-1cp)
tank ace (-1cp)

No slot
doctrine: gunnery experts, jury-rigged repairs
[100] culexus

HQ
[190] tank commander (155), heavy bolter (15), battlecannon (20), tank ace: master mechanic, relic: hammer of sunderance (free)
[205] tank commander (155), heavy bolter (15), punisher (35), tank ace: master mechanic
[35] company commander (35), chainsword, laspistol, warlord

Troops
[50] 10 guardsmen
[50] 10 guardsmen
[50] 10 guardsmen

====

[880] AS patrol (-4cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)

Strats
open the reliquaries (-1cp)
arbiter of the emperor's will (-1cp)

No slot
conviction: valorous heart
[63] ordo hereticus inquisitor (60), storm bolter (3), chainsword, psyker, terrify, relic: blackshroud, WT: formidable resolve

HQ
[60] canoness (50), blessed blade (10), bolt pistol, wrath of the emperor
[195] triumph of st katherine (195)

Troops
[55] 5 sisters (55), chainsword

Elites
[45] imagifier (45), tale of the stoic

Fast attack
[72] dominions (60), 4 storm bolters (12)

Heavy support
[195] exorcist (150), exorcist missile launcher (30), heavy bolter (15)
[195] exorcist (150), exorcist missile launcher (30), heavy bolter (15)

====

[440] GK patrol (-2cp)

Detachment
patrol (-2cp)

No slot
[100] vindicare

HQ
[85] castellan crowe (85), inner fire

Troops
[85] 5 strikes (85), halberds, purge soul
[85] 5 strikes (85), halberds, purge soul
[85] 5 strikes (85), halberds, purge soul

====

total points: 2000
total units: 20
starting cp: 12 -3 (battalion) +3 (warlord refund) -2 (patrol) -2 (patrol) -4 (strats) = 4

triumph of st katherine is exempt from the rule that makes obscuring terrain not apply to models w/ 18 or more wounds, hell yes

1 minute ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Right? That venerable dread I have in the cabinet is going to be on the board a lot more.

I for one welcome the return of our Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight overlords.

1 hour ago, Sgt. Rock said:

Doom and gloom is what I do best! Also, I've had multiple instances where "the talk" has resulted in the other guy saying "Oh, yeah, I'm totally a casual player, this list isn't optimized at all." And then getting smeared like a grot under a Baneblade's treads, not because I'm a bad player, but because I didn't tune my list like a formula 1 care.

This is an indication that you need to do more before committing to a game: look at their list, or ask what's in it, compare it to yours, chat awhile before issuing/accepting a challenge. Making an informed decision always takes some effort. Just because you and your opponent had different definitions of "casual" doesn't mean "the talk" isn't the correct solution, nor does it make your pessimism more valid.

2 minutes ago, Sgt. Rock said:

I get that, and it's fine and good, but like I said, it only takes one or two guys to come in and dominate a league/campaign and sour fun for other people. If a game is balanced, that happens less, and unfortunately, GW games have always been, and probably always will be, imbalanced to one degree or another. The army book system shoulders a lot of blame for that. 

Games between competitive and casual players can be very one-sided in the fun department. If I bring a fluffy bunny list expecting to just goof off and toss some dice, and my opponent trots out his ITC winning netlist of doom and wipes me off the table in two turns, he may have enjoyed himself, but I sure didn't. And I feel like PL opens itself up to way too much opportunity for that kind of abuse. 

As you said, people should play the game the way they want to play it, but they also need to be prepared for their opponent to not have fun if they stomp their dick into the dirt because they were expecting a different type of game. 

Which is why you should always have "the talk" with your opponent beforehand. The level of doom and gloom you're bringing to this discussion is impressive.

4 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

no doubt. Its 11 PL for that ork unit I described and its really 271 points currently. 

 

Its fine to have those things though and when you start taking scars and such then things can get good and bad.

 

Overall I am going to counter your argument with one point. 

 

This is a Narrative Set up for YOUR armies narrative. Not my narrative of your army, not Ish's Narrative of your Army. YOUR Narrative. Kit it out how you want to build that narrative.

The Crusade system in a nutshell:

Just now, Ish said:

Can we table the Heroic Intervention argument until we have the complete rulebook in hand?

It’s quite possible that this is addressed in the full rules and was simply left out of the slimmed down basic rules PDF as a space saver. It’s also possible it’s not mentioned in the rulebook at all (it’s very rare for non-characters to be able to make Heroic Interventions) but will be addressed in one of the FAQs, Errata, or other such supplement.

At the moment, you two are just kinda arguing about what each you said, what you thought the other person said, what you meant when you said it, and what the other person really meant when they said it... and if I wanted to be part of that sort of conversation, I’d go talk to my husband about which of us was supposed to put the trash out for garbage day.

The rules and what was said are clear. We're just helping a gaslighter keep his head on straight.

25 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

but I didn't say you couldnt?

You very much did:

4 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

im missing how this disagrees with me.  lol

Did...did you read it?