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xoxtile

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  1. Solid event and a great time. Bravo and encore! ... turns out my goblins hate each other more than they hate dwarfs :)
  2. I am very proud of our showing and feel that in some ways we truly surprised the other regions. For paint we were the only region to score two armies with max points (20), Little Pat and me. But in no way did we carry the region as we were the only region to have no sub 10 scores. The final regional standings for paint are as follows: 1. PNW (150) 2. MA (138) 3. NE/MW (129) 4. S (111) 5. SE (101) 6. WC (95) 7. M (68) (down two players but even with two 20 scores would have only been mid pack) In the Sportsmanship department we should be even more proud. There was only one player to take 14 points (Robert Brandon) and only five players that scored 13 points in sports at the event. Chad Hoggan (MA) took the 2nd place in the 13 point tie breaker scheme with our very own Dale Johnson taking the 3rd place prize. But the best part is that of the remaining three players in the 13 point tie bracket two others were from the PNW (Jordan Ross and me). Further more not a single player in the PNW got dinged on their sports scores meaning we all maintained our 10 point base at the very least. Very very pleased with these numbers! (An amazing representation of our ability to smile while bending over and taking it :D )
  3. Yup, quite right, I apologize for any snippy or condescending language. It was very late and I was a little steamed up at being accused of cheating and un-sportsman like conduct. I am feeling much more rational and even tempered today so I will do my best to answer any more questions on this subject in a civil tone. Again, I am apologize.
  4. Again, the Special Rules section tells us: “Unless otherwise noted, the effects of different special rules are cumulative.” Do either the Random Movement or Skirmishers special rules note any preclusion to each other. No. Does either rule directly contradict the other. No. So then why do we accept that Squig Hoppers use the formation and shooting penalty of the Skirmishers, Special Rule but not the Reform? I cannot find anywhere that the book says movement maneuvers only take place in the Remaining Moves sub phase. I can find these two rulings though, the first from the Compulsory Moves sub-phase and the second from the Remaining Moves sub-phase. “Aside from fleeing troops, units that are forced to move in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase otherwise follow the normal movement rules, unless clearly stated. ” “During the Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally or compulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform maneuvers.” So a normal unit that is forced, for whatever reason, to move in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase can do any normal moves/maneuvers in that phase BUT that does mean that they can NOT then decide to reform again in the Remaining Moves sub-phase.
  5. In the following I will layout all the pieces of this puzzle in no particular order. Where text is quoted it is a direct copy and paste from the Games Workshop. “Warhammer: Rulebook (Interactive Edition).” I will post the page number for this edition only, not the printed version. 1+1=Awesome This whole discussion comes down to a unique pairing of two Special Rules, Random Movement and Skirmishers. First we need to make sure that two Special Rules can exist on the same model: “Unless otherwise noted, the effects of different special rules are cumulative.” Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Warhammer: Rulebook (Interactive Edition).” Games Workshop, 2013. Page 135 Does this mean Squig Hoppers ignore their Random Movement, Special Rule and use only the Skirmishers rule. NO Does this mean Squig Hoppers ignore their Skirmishers, Special Rule and only use the Random Movement rule. NO Do either the Skirmishers or Random Movement, Special Rules “note” that either rule cannot be used cumulatively with any other rule? NO Does this mean Dark Elf Corsairs use all parts of BOTH the Extra Attack AND Always Strikes First, Special Rules. YES Does this mean Squig Hoppers use all parts of BOTH the Skirmishers AND Random Movement, Special Rules. YES In virtually every other part of this game system we are more than happy to add two special rules together. In fact that is what makes for so much variety and flavor in the game. So why, in this case, do some choose to ignore one part or all of one rule when neither rule precludes or forbids any part of the other? Statistical Impossibilities “Hey dude! Remember that game that I rolled 3D6 to move my Abom and rolled a zero. Oh man that was crazy, statistical impossibilities are so fun!” I find it disturbing that some people will equate a variable of 3D6, equal to zero. Has our school system really slumped so far? To set the stage even further let me pose this hypothetical. Say a spell existed in the game that forced a model to take a Movement Test or be removed as a casualty. Now say that spell is cast on a Chaos Spawn, Hell Pit Abomination or even an Iron Gut death star under the influence of Acquiescence. Does that unit now just “poof” go away? Bye bye 1200 point death star. Or, do you roll to see what random value the unit has for the test, then take the test? I think most all can agree that, in the absence of any precedence or rules on the matter, it makes sense that the unit would be allowed to either A. use a value rolled at the time or B. use a number that lies within that variable, be it high or low. To further support that a variable statistic does NOT equal zero we can now look at something that IS clearly defined: a characteristic of zero. “CHARACTERISTICS OF ZERO Some creatures have been given a value of ‘0’ (often shown as a dash: ‘–’) for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that skill. This usually applies to creatures unable to use missile weapons, so they have BS0 or BS-, but it might equally well apply to other characteristics too. For example, some creatures or war machines may have no Attacks (A0 or A-). If any creature or object has a Weapon Skill of 0 then it is unable to defend itself in close combat, and any blows struck against it will therefore automatically hit. If at any time a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0 or less by magic or a special rule, it is slain and removed from play. ” Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Warhammer: Rulebook (Interactive Edition).” Games Workshop, 2013. Page 21 Do Squig Hoppers have a M0 or M–? NO Does the Random Movement or any other Special Rule related to Squig Hoppers tell us to use a value of zero at any time? NO Squig Hoppers, and any other Random Movement unit for that matter, have a variable movement value. In the case of Squig Hoppers with their 3D6 Random Movement this variable will alway fall between 3-18”. As godswearhats states previously, to assume otherwise is absurd and without any precedence. Furthermore, virtually every poster above seems to accept that Squig Hoppers would be allowed to make combat reforms, they therefore must first accept that Squig Hoppers have a minimum movement value of 3” to do so. How about that beloved Hellpit Abomination, ever combat reformed that to face the unit of five Dwarfs that charged you in the flank? Ever used your free reform after destroying an enemy unit to change its facing? Have you ever “closed the door” on a charge you received? The only way to do so is to accept this same logic. So, until someone can post a mathematical formula that can turn the sum of 3D6 into a zero, provide quoted verbiage that tells us to use zero OR even another similar rule that sets precedence for it OR the community at large forbids ALL Random Movement unit from ALL reforms, we must use the constants of the 3D6 variable — that being a minimum of 3” and a maximum of 3”-18”. For the purposes of this discussion it is important to know the minimum of 3” as that will determine the area the Squig Hoppers are allowed to reform into without moving more than double their movement if you happen to drop three ones. To Move or Not to Move … Next let’s talk about movement phases and what is allowed and when. This above all else is the most misquoted, misrepresented and misunderstood part of the discussion in previous posts. My personal favorite is when people quote text from the Remaining Moves sub phase, to determine what is allowed in the Compulsory sub phase, then when seeing something is allowed in one, assume it is not allowed in the other … seriously, made me LOL every time because, ironically, the irrelevant rule they often quote is on the very same spread as the rule that actually matters. “OTHER COMPULSORY MOVES Aside from fleeing troops, units that are forced to move in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase otherwise follow the normal movement rules, unless clearly stated. Any further rules that apply to units that have a compulsory move will be described in their entry in the relevant army book, for example, they will often have to move at a set speed or in a given direction. These compulsory moves can be resolved in any order the controlling player wishes, providing that all Flee! moves have already been completed.” Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Warhammer: Rulebook (Interactive Edition).” Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks. Page 60 This means that any unit INCLUDING Squig Hoppers are allowed to perform any movements in the Compulsory Moves sub phase that are considered normally legal. So now, is a Reform permissible as normal movement? YES Is a unit therefore permitted to Reform during the Compulsory Moves sub phase? YES Do either the Skirmishers or Random Movement, Special Rules clearly state any prohibitive text to prevent this? NO The Pity Pivot Now, let’s review the definition of a pivot … wait, that’s right we can’t because a pivot is not actually defined in the rule book. It IS used here and there throughout the rule book, yes, including in the Random Movement, Special Rule but never actually ever defined. In some cases it tells us what part of the model to pivot around while in others it does not. Why is it not defined? Blah blah blah … You know what, who cares, it just doesn’t matter. Why doesn’t it matter? Because a unit with the Skirmishers, Special Rule does not need to pivot. Skirmishers instead benefit from limitless free Reform maneuvers — something that IS defined by the rule book. For the sake of completeness I am going to post the whole Reform rule here. Now can anyone tell me where in this text the word “pivot” is used? Spoiler alert, it simply is not. “REFORM You can completely rearrange your unit, so that it is facing in any direction, by giving up all other movement ​and shooting. A unit of troops can change the direction in which it is facing and rearrange its formation all at once by means of a manoeuvre called a reform. The leader issues the order to adopt a new formation and the troops move to assume their new positions. Keeping the centre point of the unit the same, arrange the unit into a new formation of as many ranks as you please, facing whichever direction you wish. Remember that none of the models in the unit can move more than twice their Movement rate. A reform is a complicated manoeuvre and ordinarily prevents the unit from moving any further that turn, and also stops it from firing missile weapons in the Shooting phase. However, it’s worth noting that if the unit has a musician, there is a chance it will be able to carry out the reform and still be able to move, and even shoot if it has the appropriate weapons (see Musicians for more details).” Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Warhammer: Rulebook (Interactive Edition).” Games Workshop, 2013. Page 40 Granted, on the table a pivot and a Reform can end up looking exactly the same but they are, by the rules, NOT the same. Does a unit with the Skirmishers, Special Rule need ever use a pivot to change the direction in which it is facing and rearrange its formation? NO I will leave you with two quick diagrams that show just how much room a potential 3” Random Movement roll allows a unit of A. five Squig Hoppers and B. five Squig Hoppers with a Boss/Warboss on Giant Cave Squig to Reform in before they roll the dice. A. Print by revolution8, on Flickr B. Print by revolution8, on Flickr
  6. You can see pics of two of our teams armies that I took myself Here are my Night Goblins: https://www.flickr.com/photos/revolution8/sets/72157632585655703/ Here are my Skaven: https://www.flickr.com/photos/revolution8/sets/72157632418290824/
  7. SPARKLE PARTY DEATH MATCH 4 - Sparkle Party Like It's 2999 A Warhammer Fantasy Battles Tournament and Painting Competition A Washington State and Pacific Northwest Masters Qualifier. Date July 27th, 2014 Location Seattle Center Armory Loft Room #2 305 Harrison Street Seattle,WA 98109 (206) 684-7200 http://www.seattlecenter.com Cost $20 Tickets On Sale Now @ spdm.eventbrite.com Three scenario based games. Warhammer 8th Edition rules and most current Games Workshop Errata and FAQ’s will be used. Army Selection Each player will field a valid 2999 point army constructed from an official Games Workshop, Forge World and or Black Library Digital Editions book. These include: • Beastmen • Bretonnia • Daemons of Chaos • Dark Elves • Dwarfs • Empire • High Elves • Lizardmen • Ogre Kingdoms • Orcs & Goblins • Skaven • Tomb Kings • Vampire Counts • Warriors of Chaos • Wood Elves The Following Warhammer Fantasy Supplements and Rules are allowed: • Storm of Magic: Scrolls of Binding* • Storm of Magic: Sorcerous Pacts* (*Special Note: Scrolls of Binding and Sorcerous Pacts may be taken using their normal restrictions from the Special choice allowance) • Battle Scrolls (Special Note: Official releases from the Black Library Digital Editions only) The Following Forge World books and units are allowed to be used: • Tamurkhan, Throne of Chaos • Forgeworld: Ogre Kingdoms - Grimhorn Rhinox Riders • Forgeworld: Orcs & Goblins – Night Goblin Squig Gobba • Forgeworld: Monstrous Arcanum Closed army lists. So you do not have to disclose magic items, big names, virtues, bloodline powers, fanatics, ambushers, etc. before the game. All normal unit upgrades should be disclosed before the game. Magic users must have their lore choice noted on their army list entry. Terrain All terrain is mundane and will be pre-arranged. Painting and Models You may play with unpainted models but if you do so you are not eligible to win Best Painted or Best Overall Non-Games Workshop models may be used but must clearly represent the model/unit type* All units of more than one model MUST have appropriately sized movement trays. This includes Skirmishers and Flying Cavalry. The trays can be made from cereal boxes but you MUST have them. All models must be on a base the size normally provided for them Weapons, armor options and general upgrades chosen from the army list must be shown on the majority of the models in a unit. If you have models with great weapons, the majority must be armed that way, the same thing goes with shields and missile weapons* Models created by spells or abilities must be represented by the appropriate models*. Dice counters at the back of a unit will not be allowed. If you do not have the models then the spell or ability simply may not be used * Proxies are not allowed. If you are not sure then it is best to check it with me beforehand to avoid problems later. Painting Contest ($50 cash prize!) Any scroll of binding model/unit. The contest is open to those who do not play in the tournament. Props and Phat Lewts Prizes will be awarded for first, second and third place in the following. Cash prizes will be awarded to the first place winner in each category. • Best Overall. If tied the player with the highest sportsmanship score will win. • Best Sportsman. If tied the player with the lowest battle points total will win. • Best Painted Army. If tied the player with the highest number of players choice votes wins. • Best General. If tied the player with the highest paint score wins. • Painting Contest. This time with 2nd and 3rd places. Open to non-players. • Random Raffle. Only one winner. Players only. Must be present at time of drawing to win. Thanks! Ricky
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